Dealing with gunlines...

[Dragonzord]

I'm not entirely sure how to deal with gunlines... My brother plays chaos, and all he ever does is sit behind an aegis defense line and shoot me down as i try to charge him, the entire game.

 

If i have drop pods, or long fangs, he'll deploy behind either aegis, or out of line of sight, and not move the entire game unless i come to him.

 

How does one deal with this, other than not playing with him? As close to the latter i am, i'd rather just beat him solidly once at least.

[Oz of the North]

The best ways I have ever dealt with them is you might just have to deal with the 4+ cover if offers, or if you want to try and get around it try and use a few drop pods, but from experience never use less than 3 or ally some guard in there and drop some barrage ordinance which will ignore the intervening cover the aegis affords

[SW1]

Are you playing random games generated from the rule book or just annihilating each other.  Get the rule book out and try the different scenarios and you'll find he's got to come out an play in a good % of games.

 

I'm guessing he's bunched up a lot to keep in cover so the things to look at are template weapons, get the plasma cannons out via long fangs or a vindicator.  They'll do damage and as long as you aim somewhere in the centre of the army you'll likely hurt him bad no matter where it scatters.

 

Another option is an allied squadron of 3 Leman Russ ... 3 Battle Cannons will make him change from bring very static.  Remember that you deal with the fire from a unit after working out how many models have been hit with the unit.  So if they are in a squadron find out how many hits each model makes with the weapons and then roll to wound/ saves for all of the squadrons shots before removing casualties as per normal fire taking closest model off 1st.  If you remove the models as each weapon is fired you might end up making holes in the enemies deployment zone which the template might scatter into which would reduce the effectiveness of the weapons.

[clanfield]

vindicator ,a mass of blood claws to keep him busy and some drop pod hunters to finish the job run some fenrisian wolves in front of the blood claws to provide cover saves

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

another key factor can be done during table set up. Unless I am mistaken, the defense line goes down before terrain does. if this is right (i am not sure, I dont use the Aegis lines so havent bothered looking it up, so this is hearsay), then simply dump LoS blocking terrain right infront of the bulk of his gunline. Deny him LoS and he'll be forced to actually play the game.

 

WLK

[Valerian]

Most of the mission scenarios are objective-based; if he doesn't get out and secure objectives it should be a pretty easy win for you.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Put something dead choppy in a Pod. 

[Rift Blade]

It sounds like you're playing to slaughter each other. Play some of the objective based missions, take enough to win while staying out of range of most of his stuff & give him a dose of his own medicine. You can win the game & hardly fire a shot against static armies like that simply by sitting on objectives. AS to actually breaking the gun line, try end running one end of his line with a fair size pack of of Swift Claws or Thunder Wolf Cavalry followed close behind by a pack or 2 of Gray Hunters. Zoom(Swift Claws) or run(Thunder Wolf Cavalry) down one board edge, preferably one with a bit of terrain to hide behind on his side of the board followed by the Rhinos(pop smoke with the lead one if there is another, tuck it in behind the first for the cover save. At the same time concentrate your fire on his heavy stuff that's in range of your charging units-forget everything else. Just suppress/take out the big guns that can blow holes in your charging units. Next turn charge. THe idea here is to have a big enough enemy unit to charge & lock in combat for a turn or 2 so your supporting Gray Hunters can come in win the day for you. If you whittle down the units you are going to charge, you wipe them out in your assault phase & left standing there for him to shoot on his turn. If this does happen, use your consolidation move to put the Aegis Defence line or whatever terrain there is between you & him. Another option is deep striking Land Speeder Tornadoes with dual Heavy Flamers. Seen this done with 3 squadrons of 2 each. Against PA armies it's hit & miss, against others, it CAN be devastating. But you usually end building your army around this. Hope this at least gives you some ideas. Good luck.

[Denison512]

As other have said it seems like your brother is giving you the run around. Remember after terrain has been set the person who roles off gets to decide which board edge he wants! so if your brother is stacking his side of the board with nice terrain and you win the roll off... take it off him!

[hendrik]

I'dd like to know what point games you're playing, what units does he usually deploy and to which units/models do you have access to?

a "cheap" (points wise) trick to guard your own objectives while still taking the fight to him is getting a small allied imperial guard platoon+company command squad (works out at 180 pts without upgrades), which gives you 25 scoring bodies to deploy on as much as 3 objectives without even feeling a great "lack" in your list.

besides the already mentioned options here you might also consider a land raider redeemer? alternativly, what about a whirlwind?

[Russ Brother 92]

I'dd like to know what point games you're playing, what units does he usually deploy and to which units/models do you have access to?

a "cheap" (points wise) trick to guard your own objectives while still taking the fight to him is getting a small allied imperial guard platoon+company command squad (works out at 180 pts without upgrades), which gives you 25 scoring bodies to deploy on as much as 3 objectives without even feeling a great "lack" in your list.

besides the already mentioned options here you might also consider a land raider redeemer? alternativly, what about a whirlwind?

 

As others have said - if he's staying put and you're not able to get to him with LFs, run 3 Whirlwinds, hitting that 48" range will likely be out of range of the majority of his firepower (barring perhaps Oblits or Havocs), can use the Castellan Missiles to ignore cover and then run a Redeemer w/ Blood Claws and Wolf Priest (Hunter Saga) outflank that into whatever squishy units he has, then you can blast 2 AP3 Flamers, one Multi-Melta and 4 S6 Rending shots into them :) and then charge full pelt with 16 men :D now that'll hurt...

[Dragonzord]

Cheers for the replies!

Yeah, we play the BRB missions, but in the games we play, i will be the only player to actually move anywhere. So if i didnt move and attack him, it'd be just 5 turns of him sitting there behind his aegis and shooting stuff. Sure i'd win if i capped objectives, but it wouldnt be a fun game.

Playing at 2000 points mostly, single force org. Usually squads of havocs with assault cannons, squads of oblits, and the rest being nurgle stuff. Once was a daemon prince with black mace (it killed a sqaud of 5 thunderwolf cav in a single assault phase before i could do anything, because AP2 on MC)

As to breaking the gunline. I tried that with TWC. Yeahhh, first round of combat i did okay, then terminators and terminator lord came in and killed them all with no trouble in the next assault phase. Yeah, he kept terminators camping behind his lines.

With terrain being placed after fortifications, I didnt think anyone actually went by that rule

It basically comes down to, im an assault player, with basically only assault models (im not overly limited in what models i have, like 3.5k points without wargear), and he knows that gunline vs assault is just terrible for the assault player, and hes basically a WAAC player, and i just play for fun, as do all of my friends (really, all of them really hate playing with him because hes just far too serious, and when he starts losing, out comes the rules lawyering) Once he said 'im gonna bring two helldrakes this game!' and i just said 'yeah, im not playing then, have fun'... THAT kind of player. /end rant

One list i did think of bringing, just for :cusss and giggles:

HQ:

Wolf guard battle leader with saga of the hunter

Logan

Troops:

3 squads of 10 wolf guard with plasma guns and storm bolters in drop pods

1 squad of 6 wolf guard terminators, with frost blade/storm shield and arjac

Elites:

2 lone wolf terminators with Stormshield/frost blade and mark of the wolfen

Just so i can deepstrike everything, and put logan, the battle leader and wolf guard terminators in a squad and outflank it all. All just to deal with a stupid gunline..

[hendrik]

personally i would really take on the same tactics as he does and try to beat him with it! perhaps then he'll understand!

 

otherwise, give him a good old fenrisian trashing! it's only natural for brothers to do that! ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Frankly, after reading your latest post, I just wouldnt play him.

 

Its going to be a waste of each of your time, as you want different things out of the game. find people who fit your gaming mentality, and let him either adapt or go without.

 

its a game. if he is drainging your fun then why play? Especially if he starts pulling crap when losing.

 

WLK

[Rift Blade]

Gotta second Wolf Lord Kieran. As one of my gaming groups says. It's a game. Why so serious?!??

[Squark]

Yeah, it sounds like you guys need to at the very least play other people to break up the monotony. Plus, exposure to other armies will force both of you to adapt, which should hopefully make his list more fun to play against as well.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

Gotta second Wolf Lord Kieran. As one of my gaming groups says. It's a game. Why so serious?!??

Want to kill a gunline? 

 

Its simple: We kill the (chaos Lord) Batman.

[the jeske]

I would like to point out that the chaos dude plays a normal chaos list , in fact if he takes terminators he is even taking sub standard ones . More if you tell him that you won't play him , if he takes helldrakes[and your runing logan wing which then makes no sense , because bales are ap3] , he is left with only one option to gunline . He can't play an assault army like you , because you will out him every time . He can't even play mecha because in a closed enviroment where you can load up on combi melta and cyclons in pods and he has only rhinos as transport options , he would be at a losing position from the get go too.

 

 

 

 

:Edit:

Ok re-read they your army list . You have three packs of what seems to be power armored WG . It absolutly doesn't matter what your opponent takes. No one takes power armored WG , just like no chaos player takes chosen and SW at least have pods to somehow get them in to range and actualy working land raiders.

[Grey Mage]

I'm not entirely sure how to deal with gunlines... My brother plays chaos, and all he ever does is sit behind an aegis defense line and shoot me down as i try to charge him, the entire game.

 

If i have drop pods, or long fangs, he'll deploy behind either aegis, or out of line of sight, and not move the entire game unless i come to him.

 

How does one deal with this, other than not playing with him? As close to the latter i am, i'd rather just beat him solidly once at least.

So on one hand you say this, on the other hand you say you could win handily but the game wouldnt be as fun...

 

Sounds short sighted to me. Ive found that frankly the best way to change a guys tactics is to beat him soundly at them a few times, nothing makes people rethink things more. So just go ahead and take those wins with the capped objectives for a few games, and see what happens to his tactics.

 

And dont... just dont... say "I wont play if you take unit x y or z" or multiple of them. Why? Because its rude to sit there and say he cant take anything in his codex and especially then to in turn say "He uses the same tactic all the time, why? Its boring me!" You dont get to inform your opponent what they do during a game any more than he should be able to say 'more than one squad of terminator clad WG? Nope!"

 

Its not how gentlemen, friends, behave towards each other.

 

Now, if you want to beat his gunline.... you say you have DPs? And he likes his aegis line? Then take alot of flamer bearing GH packs and Dreads or WG, and just force so many checks he cant help but start rolling some 1s and 2s. Cripple his best shooting squads right out the gate and then watch it fold- do this a few times and hell come up with new tactics to counter you and your game will evolve.

[SW1]

Cheers for the replies!

Yeah, we play the BRB missions, but in the games we play, i will be the only player to actually move anywhere. So if i didnt move and attack him, it'd be just 5 turns of him sitting there behind his aegis and shooting stuff. Sure i'd win if i capped objectives, but it wouldnt be a fun game.

Playing at 2000 points mostly, single force org. Usually squads of havocs with assault cannons, squads of oblits, and the rest being nurgle stuff. Once was a daemon prince with black mace (it killed a sqaud of 5 thunderwolf cav in a single assault phase before i could do anything, because AP2 on MC)

As to breaking the gunline. I tried that with TWC. Yeahhh, first round of combat i did okay, then terminators and terminator lord came in and killed them all with no trouble in the next assault phase. Yeah, he kept terminators camping behind his lines.

With terrain being placed after fortifications, I didnt think anyone actually went by that rule

It basically comes down to, im an assault player, with basically only assault models (im not overly limited in what models i have, like 3.5k points without wargear), and he knows that gunline vs assault is just terrible for the assault player, and hes basically a WAAC player, and i just play for fun, as do all of my friends (really, all of them really hate playing with him because hes just far too serious, and when he starts losing, out comes the rules lawyering) Once he said 'im gonna bring two helldrakes this game!' and i just said 'yeah, im not playing then, have fun'... THAT kind of player. /end rant

One list i did think of bringing, just for :cusss and giggles:

HQ:

Wolf guard battle leader with saga of the hunter

Logan

Troops:

3 squads of 10 wolf guard with plasma guns and storm bolters in drop pods

1 squad of 6 wolf guard terminators, with frost blade/storm shield and arjac

Elites:

2 lone wolf terminators with Stormshield/frost blade and mark of the wolfen

Just so i can deepstrike everything, and put logan, the battle leader and wolf guard terminators in a squad and outflank it all. All just to deal with a stupid gunline..

You can't arm WG with plasma guns, combi-plasma yes, but normal plasma is not an option.

[sn33r]

 

Cheers for the replies!

 

Yeah, we play the BRB missions, but in the games we play, i will be the only player to actually move anywhere. So if i didnt move and attack him, it'd be just 5 turns of him sitting there behind his aegis and shooting stuff. Sure i'd win if i capped objectives, but it wouldnt be a fun game.

 

Playing at 2000 points mostly, single force org. Usually squads of havocs with assault cannons, squads of oblits, and the rest being nurgle stuff. Once was a daemon prince with black mace (it killed a sqaud of 5 thunderwolf cav in a single assault phase before i could do anything, because AP2 on MC)

 

As to breaking the gunline. I tried that with TWC. Yeahhh, first round of combat i did okay, then terminators and terminator lord came in and killed them all with no trouble in the next assault phase. Yeah, he kept terminators camping behind his lines.

 

With terrain being placed after fortifications, I didnt think anyone actually went by that rule :P

 

It basically comes down to, im an assault player, with basically only assault models (im not overly limited in what models i have, like 3.5k points without wargear), and he knows that gunline vs assault is just terrible for the assault player, and hes basically a WAAC player, and i just play for fun, as do all of my friends (really, all of them really hate playing with him because hes just far too serious, and when he starts losing, out comes the rules lawyering) Once he said 'im gonna bring two helldrakes this game!' and i just said 'yeah, im not playing then, have fun'... THAT kind of player. /end rant

 

One list i did think of bringing, just for :cusss and giggles:

 

HQ:

Wolf guard battle leader with saga of the hunter

Logan

 

Troops:

3 squads of 10 wolf guard with plasma guns and storm bolters in drop pods

1 squad of 6 wolf guard terminators, with frost blade/storm shield and arjac

 

Elites:

2 lone wolf terminators with Stormshield/frost blade and mark of the wolfen

 

Just so i can deepstrike everything, and put logan, the battle leader and wolf guard terminators in a squad and outflank it all. All just to deal with a stupid gunline..

You can't arm WG with plasma guns, combi-plasma yes, but normal plasma. is not an option...

 

If only we could..

[Sheesh Mode]

Cheers for the replies!

Yeah, we play the BRB missions, but in the games we play, i will be the only player to actually move anywhere. So if i didnt move and attack him, it'd be just 5 turns of him sitting there behind his aegis and shooting stuff. Sure i'd win if i capped objectives, but it wouldnt be a fun game.

Playing at 2000 points mostly, single force org. Usually squads of havocs with assault cannons, squads of oblits, and the rest being nurgle stuff. Once was a daemon prince with black mace (it killed a sqaud of 5 thunderwolf cav in a single assault phase before i could do anything, because AP2 on MC)

As to breaking the gunline. I tried that with TWC. Yeahhh, first round of combat i did okay, then terminators and terminator lord came in and killed them all with no trouble in the next assault phase. Yeah, he kept terminators camping behind his lines.

With terrain being placed after fortifications, I didnt think anyone actually went by that rule

It basically comes down to, im an assault player, with basically only assault models (im not overly limited in what models i have, like 3.5k points without wargear), and he knows that gunline vs assault is just terrible for the assault player, and hes basically a WAAC player, and i just play for fun, as do all of my friends (really, all of them really hate playing with him because hes just far too serious, and when he starts losing, out comes the rules lawyering) Once he said 'im gonna bring two helldrakes this game!' and i just said 'yeah, im not playing then, have fun'... THAT kind of player. /end rant

One list i did think of bringing, just for :cusss and giggles:

HQ:

Wolf guard battle leader with saga of the hunter

Logan

Troops:

3 squads of 10 wolf guard with plasma guns and storm bolters in drop pods

1 squad of 6 wolf guard terminators, with frost blade/storm shield and arjac

Elites:

2 lone wolf terminators with Stormshield/frost blade and mark of the wolfen

Just so i can deepstrike everything, and put logan, the battle leader and wolf guard terminators in a squad and outflank it all. All just to deal with a stupid gunline..

So can you field a spear head of vindi's or land raiders followed by small squads of Greyhunters in rhinos armed with Cmeltas and MotW?

It's not impossible to break an enemy whose camping behind his cutesy fortifications, it's more a matter of KillHammer and target priority.

Blast that quad gun to pieces and pump S10 Ap 2 all over his army, support it with psykers and bolter fire and then run in and eat him with a mass assault against his weakened troops.

You can get allies too and bust open his drakes with vendettas.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

 

:Edit:

Ok re-read they your army list . You have three packs of what seems to be power armored WG . It absolutly doesn't matter what your opponent takes. No one takes power armored WG , just like no chaos player takes chosen and SW at least have pods to somehow get them in to range and actualy working land raiders.

 

No chaos player takes Chosen? Tell that to Chaos Lord Bubba, who fielded a squad of them with 5 or 6 plasma, lead by Abaddon. Out of seven people and across a dozen or more games, I was the only one to beat them. He only stopped using them 'cause everybody complained that they kept getting tabled.

 

 

And dont... just dont... say "I wont play if you take unit x y or z" or multiple of them. Why? Because its rude to sit there and say he cant take anything in his codex and especially then to in turn say "He uses the same tactic all the time, why? Its boring me!" You dont get to inform your opponent what they do during a game any more than he should be able to say 'more than one squad of terminator clad WG? Nope!"
 

While I will 99% of the time agree with this statement, fielding a bunch of helldrakes would ruin my idea of a fun game. Space Wolves cannot deal with flyers, unless you design a list specifically to deal with them, and Heldrakes can't be ignored. I tend to lose large chunks of my army to the single Heldrake and facing two (or, Allfather forbid, three) of them would be enough for me to simply surrender. When I play 40k, I want to have a fighting chance. Seeing my army torn apart when I have no way to defend myself is quite the opposite.

 

Besides, its not like the Chaos Legions lack anything else of value. I've fought Cultist armies, machine-beast armies, cult marines, and straight-out broken weapon spam, and they all were challenging to put down. 

[dswanick]

 

 

:Edit:

Ok re-read they your army list . You have three packs of what seems to be power armored WG . It absolutly doesn't matter what your opponent takes. No one takes power armored WG , just like no chaos player takes chosen and SW at least have pods to somehow get them in to range and actualy working land raiders.

 

No chaos player takes Chosen? Tell that to Chaos Lord Bubba, who fielded a squad of them with 5 or 6 plasma, lead by Abaddon. Out of seven people and across a dozen or more games, I was the only one to beat them. He only stopped using them 'cause everybody complained that they kept getting tabled.

 

 

At times like this, it's best to ignore the jeske. He tends to imagine that his little corner of the Eurasian Competative microcosm is the be-all and end-all. And that no game style or meta exists beyond whatever bit of Russia he lives in.

[Grey Mage]

 

 

:Edit:

Ok re-read they your army list . You have three packs of what seems to be power armored WG . It absolutly doesn't matter what your opponent takes. No one takes power armored WG , just like no chaos player takes chosen and SW at least have pods to somehow get them in to range and actualy working land raiders.

 

No chaos player takes Chosen? Tell that to Chaos Lord Bubba, who fielded a squad of them with 5 or 6 plasma, lead by Abaddon. Out of seven people and across a dozen or more games, I was the only one to beat them. He only stopped using them 'cause everybody complained that they kept getting tabled.

 

 

And dont... just dont... say "I wont play if you take unit x y or z" or multiple of them. Why? Because its rude to sit there and say he cant take anything in his codex and especially then to in turn say "He uses the same tactic all the time, why? Its boring me!" You dont get to inform your opponent what they do during a game any more than he should be able to say 'more than one squad of terminator clad WG? Nope!"
 

While I will 99% of the time agree with this statement, fielding a bunch of helldrakes would ruin my idea of a fun game. Space Wolves cannot deal with flyers, unless you design a list specifically to deal with them, and Heldrakes can't be ignored. I tend to lose large chunks of my army to the single Heldrake and facing two (or, Allfather forbid, three) of them would be enough for me to simply surrender. When I play 40k, I want to have a fighting chance. Seeing my army torn apart when I have no way to defend myself is quite the opposite.

 

Besides, its not like the Chaos Legions lack anything else of value. I've fought Cultist armies, machine-beast armies, cult marines, and straight-out broken weapon spam, and they all were challenging to put down. 

We can deal with flyers, and we should be prepared to do so every game. Between fortifications, long fangs, speeders, razorbacks, divination rune priests, dreads... we have the tools. Just because it doesnt say skyfire doesnt mean we cant get the job done.

 

Unless you meant that the drakes likely to get a shot off first? Yeah, it is- and thats ok. Its the same price as a GH squad before transport, so if it kills half of one.... ok? Still doing well.