Tactics for the New C:SM....

[Azash]

I think we have enough reliable information to start pitching around ideas for tactics. I had an idea for tournament competitive army and wanted to get thoughts an opinions. However all of this would be subject to change and exact point costs my vary slightly.

 

So my concept is a list built around Pedro to maximize the number of scoring units and force an opponent to split up there fire as much as possible. That all pretty much follows tried and true tactics of 5th edition Pedro lists. However what I am looking at is a massive departure on the death star or hammer unit.

 

 

Concept-

 

Pedro w/ a unit of 4 Honor Guard. Leave them equipped with standard equipment but run one model with a Power axe but make sure that is not the Chapter Champion. This allows me to hide a +1 STR AP 2 weapon from challenges. It's not a PF but its not a kick in the face.

 

Mount these guys up in a Standard Land Raider Heavy Choice for the Assault vehicle. I know that's allot of eggs in one basket.

 

It's the point cost, number of attacks, wounds, and versatility where this gets interesting...

 

This squad by itself should cost approximately 310 to 340 pts depending on what direction they go with the base cost of 3 Man honor guard squad.

 

It will have 26 attacks total on the charge; 11 of which will be at WS 5 and 10 of which will be at AP 2 with increased str.  Leaving you 16 attacks swinging at I4 with AP3.

 

Here is the versatility part.....9 Str 4 shots, four of which are AP 4 all of which get rerolls on 1's before the charge for no extra points (thats almost as much as a squad of 5 shooty terminators). Actually has a ranged capabable roll where the squad can foll back to shooting.

 

The squad should have a total of 8 wounds with half of those saving on a 2+ and the other have on a 3+ 4++.

 

Only uses 1 force HQ force Org slot

 

(Could have Rerolls to hit and wound on Chapter Champion of rules don't change)

 

 

Comparing this to the traditional Terminator squad with a pretty standard 3/2 split of Hammies to LC's w/ Kantor.

 

Cost 390 pts

 

Attacks: 27 Attacks total - 17 Attacks I1 Ap 2 Str 8  and 10 attacks AP3 with rerolls to wound and only 5 attacks at WS 5. With only 1 model with str 8 ap 2 hits that's hidden from challenges.

 

Only 4 shooting attacks at Str 4 ap 4 with rerolls on 1

 

A total of 9 wounds, 3 models at 2+3++, 2 models at 2+5++, and 1 model at 3+4++

 

Uses 2 force org slots 1 HQ and 1 Elite (but can take the LR as dedicated Transport)

 

 

 

Honor guard is between 50-80 pts cheaper and between the combination of shooting before assault and assault actually can meet out more wounds on most things (it would be an up hill slog for HG against most MC's). The force org slot balances because of the honor guard comes free to Pedro while the LR comes free to the Terminators.

 

However in the balance with Bolter Drill and the threat of Rapid Fire especially from Tau it looks to me as the honor guard w/ Pedro actually can have a bigger more postive impact for you than the Assault terminators.

 

 

Thoughts...., comments and critiques welcome.

[BassWave]

I'd suggest giving the champion a relic blade and because you still get to keep a power weapon, make it a power axe. This makes him very flexible.

 

Normally i'd say take a banner, but you got pedro, which saves points. Aside from that sounds like you are good to go.

[Excubitor]

Also look at Power Mauls over Power Swords - I can't remember where but I think someone did the math and the Mauls were better because of their increased strength vs slightly lesser AP ability.

 

I like to run mine 5-man, champ w/ axe and Relic Blade, 1 with Axe, rest with Mauls/swords. One of the non-axe guys gets the banner. Even with Kantor, I run them separately - Kantor gets a sternguard unit to run with, HG get Shen from FW or Cassius.

[Axagoras]

The maul is just worse for fighting PA, with 5 attacks assuming hitting on 4s vs t4 its 1.25 wounds with sword and .6 something with maul.

[Excubitor]

ah, ok, something I've never really tested out - mine seem to end up in a lot of fights with GK terminators, henchmen, Dark Eldar, orks, and daemons.

[Captain Idaho]

I've been using power lances lately. They've done well, since I usually get the charge thanks to a Landraider and the fact no one wants to fight them.

 

3 power lances, a power sword on the Ancient (you'll not have one so just think spare Honour Guard if you're using Kantor), a Relic blade on the Champion and a Relic Blade on the Master. I've added a 6th Honour Guard with a power axe too which might not be necessary if you're running power fist character like Kantor.

[Axagoras]

then its better, vs TDA you dont pen their armor with both and you wound easier, and anything in worse then a 3+ you are better off. My meta is lots of 3+ or armies that have 3+ and 4+ so a sword is better for me but a maul would be better if you fight a lot of xenos.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Right now I'm kicking around a scoring Sternguard list with Pedro as well. One thing I'm considering if putting together the Honor Guard with my Librarian. If you take the banner everyone (including the Libby's force weapon) gets the plus one attack. In addition a well kitted out Mastery level 2 psyker is gonna cost less than Kantor, while being able to give major buffs (basically most of the biomancy and Divination powers).

If your thinking of running honor guard, I think at the moment the best HQ is probably Tigurius. 3x Powers about as guaranteed to go off as you can get (Imagine an Honor Guard unit with Forewarning and Precognition facing an opponent that had been hit by Misfortune )

[BassWave]

Well, I can't imagine since I won't have access to him :p It does sound insane though.

 

What do you think Idaho? Would it be worth paying the points for Tiggy for that combo?

[Captain Idaho]

I'm thinking Tigurius would be amazing for just about any list. If you can take Honour Guard with any HQ (doubtful) then it's a no brainer. Right now I think Tigurius will enhance Honour Guard to the point of absurdity thanks to his abilities on Divination. Of course 2 HQs is costly in an army already running a Landraider, so depending on what you want in the army (like armour saturation) you might go for that extra tank etc.

[L30n1d4s]

I am not sure how costly they will be, but I think if Auxilary GLs are in the same realm as Relic Blades (i.e. 10 points each), then you can really turne ahG into legit shooting units.

 

At 24" Rapid Fire, you can either shred enemy hordes with up to 20 Frag grenade blasts or you can cut down medium infantry and lights vehicles with up to 20 Krak grenades. Even MEQs take a hit... 20 Krak shots, 13-14 hits, 10-11 wounds, 3-4 dead Marines.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

If you don't want to spend the points on a land raider you can go with the stormraven. 50 points cheaper and it provides excellent and it provides great anti-flyer/anti-armor. Its even an assault vehicle though its chances of dieing the next turn are excellent after it stops to drop off its passengers. (it was absolutely amazing with sternguard last edition and looks to be this edition as well particularly with kantor still making them scoring.)

[Ishagu]

Stormraven is worth every point.

 

Played a game today. It took out a whole unit of oblits, about 20 cultists, some khorne berzerkers and took some HPs from a landraider.

 

Had 1 hull point left at end of game..

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Stormraven is worth every point.

 

Played a game today. It took out a whole unit of oblits, about 20 cultists, some khorne berzerkers and took some HPs from a landraider.

 

Had 1 hull point left at end of game..

It is an excellent unit. With the TLLC and 4 missiles it is a fantastic MC or Medium armor killer. As for its transport ability I plan to use it with a squad of sternguard and a locator beacon you can deploy and fire without having to worry about a deep strike mishap.

 

My current WIP list for my 6th edition C:SM is shaping up to use this tactic:

 

Kantor

Librarian

3x Sternguard

2x Stormraven

2x Troops

Devestator Squad

[Azash]

If you don't want to spend the points on a land raider you can go with the stormraven. 50 points cheaper and it provides excellent and it provides great anti-flyer/anti-armor. Its even an assault vehicle though its chances of dieing the next turn are excellent after it stops to drop off its passengers. (it was absolutely amazing with sternguard last edition and looks to be this edition as well particularly with kantor still making them scoring.)

I want this as a tournment list so the risk of Lawn Darting it makes a Storm Raven a dangerous transport for an Honor Guard and Pedro at least IMO.

Went to a major regional tournament last year had a buddy running Flesh Tearers. He put 10 DC and Gabriel Seth in a Storm Raven. When delivered on target the unit was absolutely devastating. However in one round of shooting during the second round of the tournament the storm raven went down. All 10 DC joined Sanguinius along with the Machine Spirt of there Storm Raven. This left poor ole Gabriel standing all alone out in the middle of the field (cause he was lucky enough to make his invuln). He got sawed in half as the rest of the oppents fire had a lone Warlord standing midfield. Tallying up, thats 3 KP's for the opponent and slay the warlord and all he had to do is basically knock down a storm raven.

Now here is the scarey math hammer.

A unit of 3 Tau Broadsides with max missile Drones can fire 20 St 7 missile each round. Not an expert on the codex but at least 12 of those got skyfire if not all 20.

Eldar Wave Serpents with there shield and target lock scatter lasers can fire between 5 and 11 shots per round. 1 to 7 of those are Str 7 4 are str 6. The player gets to roll 4 dice TL to try and get 1 hit to make the shield TL. That's per waver serpent. The Str 7 ignore cover so jink is useless. This isn't even there AA option with skyfire this is just there transports!

The new Stalker is Str 7 Ap4 Heavy 8 skyfire.

I am not even considering other fliers like 4 hell turkey lists that get up to what like 4 or 7 str 7 vector strikes each turn?

However if I put them in a Land Raider they are immune to just about every threat except for Melta's, Lances, and haywire grenades. If the Land Raider blows up only half of them will take wounds and I can actually take armor saves on that. If you put to many pricey things without Invulns in a Storm Raven the instant it comes on it becomes your opponents only priority. At a tournament it can easily become an "I win" button for your opponent.

Now two or three codexes ago when AA was sparse and Wave Serpents were not the tank a turn vicious killers they are now...I would totally be riding to battle in style

[Captain Idaho]

I'll be taking 2 Stalkers in my tournament lists going forward to deal with fliers and nasty skimmers, so I'm not so sure about Storm Ravens as elite transport, especially when there are less fliers on the table.

 

Whilst on the subject, Stalkers will help us greatly against Eldar and anyone silly enough to bring Skimmers against us! Against such targets it brings back the effectiveness of Rifleman Dreads only with more shots per model - each Stalker is 2 Rifleman Dreads!

[Tangamarine]

I do want to include stalkers in my list, but I am not sure I can justify bringing them, even with the cheap point cost, due to taking up valuable heavy support slots that thunderfires and vindicators usually take up (I still run with a mostly mech list, vindicators are great for drawing fire and acting as cover for the rhinos)

The only problem is apart from an defence line, decent anti air can only come from heavy support unless you bring in allies.

 

The new anti air units cannot shoot at ground targets with much success either, which if you bring one or two of them, and encounter no flyers, you just wasted ~150 pts and 2 heavy support slots. I guess a redeeming factor is using them against skimmers, but not everyone uses them around here. 

 

As a result I seem to be leaning towards either stormraven + stormtalon escort, or devastators, as with IF they get tank hunter which should help whether they use missiles against vehicles or flyers.

[Captain Idaho]

Almost every competitive game will have fliers or skimmers on the table. Imperial Guard with Vendettas, Eldar/Dark Eldar with skimmers, Space Marines with Storm Talons or Marine armies with Storm Ravens, flying monstrous creatures in Daemon armies, Chaos Heldrakes spam....

 

What armies can we expect to not see Skimmer or flier? Dark Angels perhaps but even they bring the odd Landspeeder.

 

And with Stalker tanks being so cheap we know we can invest in them and not hamstring our army.

 

Of course the heavy support slots are crucial for some players, though I don't really use them so it's not an issue for me. So really I haven't really helped your dilemma have I!

[Tangamarine]

I guess if you put it that way, it does seem more enticing :P

Tigures also looks so nice especially with the warlord trait meaning he can effectively double prescience the enemy. Pity allied detachedments can't have the warlord in them, as he loses out on a nifty ability (would also lose out on this if Calgar was on the field) He just seems so useful in any situation with prescience, and could easily decimate few units with his abilities, if a couple of sternguard were available to support.

[L30n1d4s]

For Stalkers, if you ally with another Marine detachment, you effectively have 4 HS slots. That means you can take 2 Stalkers and still have room for 2 more HS units, which is pretty good in most games.

 

Of course, you do have to take another HQ and Troop choice, but that is pretty easy.... White Scar Biker Captain and SMB squad, or Imperial Fist Tac Squad and Librarian with Biomancy or Ultramarine Tac Squad with Drop Pod and Master of the Forge... there are many viable, competitive options for allied SM to enhance your army while also getting that extra HS slot for another Stalker.

[Azash]

I have found that the allied tax is hard to pay unless you incorporating the units into your primary build to begin with. What I mean is if your going to be taking 10 sniper scouts as a 3rd troop choice then it's easy to incorporate allies since you can simply run the scouts as chapter X then you throw in a libby and poof now you got your heavy slot. The only thing your really paying extra for is the HQ. If your not running a 3rd troop choice the cost gets allot more expensive and that extra heavy slot just isn't worth the points you have to pay to get access to it.

 

 

In order to combat this I am looking at where I can get my heavy fire power from outside of the heavy slot. To that end I noticed in the rumors the Typhoon is now 75 pts. If that is the case then that would be a good option of getting heavy fire power out of your fast attack slot freeing up your heavy slot for a stalker. Yeah it's not quite a TFC but it's mobility gives it similar range and it has frag and krak firing modes so it does a decent job and it costs 25 pts less.

 

That is where I am fiddling with my list right now.  However if forgeworld is allowed in your meta and tournament circuit I think one of the dual purpose land raider variants could be the answer. Specifically I am thinking either the Land Raider Achilles or the Land Raider Helios.

[Ishagu]

Hmmm, this is how I'll run 1999pt games:

 

Marneus Calgar

3 x Troops with transports

2 x Vindicators

1 x Stormraven

1 x 3 Centurians ( Raven as Transport)

1 x Stormtalon

1 x Aegis with Quad Gun

1 x Chaplain with Plasma Command Squad in Razorback

[Brother Captain Andrew]

I'm wondering how to add a CC unit to a sternguard list. I feel that while marines still aren't going to be close to the super powerful armies we will have pretty solid shooting. However facing really excellent shooting armies, particularly Tau or Eldar, we will need some sort of CC focused Unit. 

[Zombie P]

The vanguard are good now, a lot cheaper and more practical. Their jump packs are 3pts per model now if I read it right :) The only problem is that they are in elites now rather than fast attack, and if you run stern heavy that may be a problem.

 

One option could be to run an allied detachment from this dex with a CT that aids assault or have some other gimmick that helps.

 

ZP

[Brother Captain Andrew]

The vanguard are good now, a lot cheaper and more practical. Their jump packs are 3pts per model now if I read it right The only problem is that they are in elites now rather than fast attack, and if you run stern heavy that may be a problem.

One option could be to run an allied detachment from this dex with a CT that aids assault or have some other gimmick that helps.

ZP

Yeah. Right now I'm trying to figure out what to add to the core of 3 Sternguard squads, Pedro and a couple of 5 man Tac Squads (which is looking to be around 1100 points). My friends and I usually run at around 2000 points, the problem is that with all the Elite options taken and not wanting to waste more points on another useless tac squad I'm not sure about what to do.