Saamael and White Scar allies

[L30n1d4s]

This may be quite beardy, but it is intriguing to me all the same.

 

According to the rumors, the new White Scars Chapter Traits include:

 

-Born in the Saddle --- Ignore Dangerous Terrain, add +1 to Jink save, and add +1S to Hammer of Wrath attacks.

 

Notice, this is NOT the Skilled Rider USR (though very similar). Based on that, if I read this correctly, you do the following:

 

-Take an Allied White Scars detachment with a Khan and 8 Bike/1 Attack Bike squad as a Troops choice

-Take Saamael as your WL and attach him to the White Scar Bike Squad/Khan

-Move the squad at least 1"

-Jink Save + Skilled Rider + Born in the Saddle = 3+ Cover Save simply for moving

 

Now, if you Turbo-boost or are near a Dark Shroud, your unit now has a 2+ cover save

 

On top of that, the entire unit Ignores Difficult Terrain, has S5 Hammer of Wrath, multiple special weapons, a heavy weapon, is Scoring, is Fearless, has Hit and Run, has Scout, and has Furious Charge.

 

I think this detachment, along with an allied Stormtalon and Stormraven, would be an excellent addition to a Ravenwing army (you could even use Khan/WS Bikers/Storm Talon/Storm Raven as "counts as" Ravenwing units and paint them black accordingly, vice White Scars colors).

 

This is not to deny the utility of regular Ravenwing units, and you could still take a couple of RAS, a RW Command Squad, and/or a Dark Shroud or Black Knight Squadron.

[facmanpob]

Hmmm, interesting - Khan attached to some Black Knights would be fun too!

[Master Avoghai]

Depends of the formulation...

 

If the SM captain entry is made like the Sammael one, then you won't be allowed to take bike as troops in an allied detachment.

[facmanpob]

Yep, that's the fist thing I'll be looking for in C:SM.... The words "Primary Detachment"....

[Syphid]

They die all the same to Helldrakes, but sounds like a devastating combo against players who don't know how to deal with bikes.  If only there was some way to give the unit FnP...

[Tiger9gamer]

I might switch back and forth to switch up how I play my bikes if I could. If I run "white Guardians" as my main force, I would ally in some black knights and have Khârn drive around to make a mini-deathstar like thing. Furious charge+Corvus hammers+ Furious Charge=Fun!! plus if you completely wreck the Warlord's squad you get D3 extra VP. that is game changing.

 

Idk, I'll see what I could do. I want to stay dark angels and unforgiven, but might switch back and forth if I have fun with units.

[Isiah]

This may be quite beardy, but it is intriguing to me all the same.

[...]

-Take an Allied White Scars detachment with a Khan and 8 Bike/1 Attack Bike squad as a Troops choice

-Take Saamael as your WL and attach him to the White Scar Bike Squad/Khan

-Move the squad at least 1"

-Jink Save + Skilled Rider + Born in the Saddle = 3+ Cover Save simply for moving

Now, if you Turbo-boost or are near a Dark Shroud, your unit now has a 2+ cover save

On top of that, the entire unit Ignores Difficult Terrain, has S5 Hammer of Wrath, multiple special weapons, a heavy weapon, is Scoring, is Fearless, has Hit and Run, has Scout, and has Furious Charge.

[...]

You might need to rethink the above given that this is the rumoured way Allies and Primary Detachments will work together:

Can't use Special Characters from other Chapters or mix Chapters in a detachment. (further clarification needed)

... and I can see and hope that this is indeed the way things go to stop these very kind of overpowered Chapter/unit/character mix combinations .

Not that I want to be a party pooper of course. But things could get very mad indeed otherwise.

Cheers

I

[facmanpob]

But you wouldn't be mixing them in a detachment.... Sammael would be in the Primary Detachment, and Khan would be in the allied detachment. Of course I stand ready to be corrected when the codex is released, but nothing as yet suggests that Special Characters are disallowed from Allied Detachments. Once they are on the table, they simply act like normal ICs, and as they are battle brothers they can join squads as they please.

[Isiah]

Looking at this again I guess you're not <_<

 

It's the mixing of special rules that I don't like :)

[facmanpob]

Looking at this again I guess you're not

It's the mixing of special rules that I don't like

Its definitely a bit beardy to take Sammy and Khan and then run them with units from each other's codex to take advantage of differently worded special rules, buts it's not so different to some of the cheese that, say, Eldar and Tau can do together. Fluff-wise, I wouldn't like doing it, but in a competitive game I'd consider it if it bumped up our codex a couple of notches. The main reason I'm considering allies is so that I can use my Dark Talon/Nephilim as a Storm Talon.... I'm magnetising weapon options so that I can actually put the correct Storm Talon weapons onto the DT chassis. I just think the ST can do everything a Nephilim can do, slightly better, and at less cost. If I can run an ST in an allied Fast Attack slot, with bikers in the allied troop slot, I'll be happy

[L30n1d4s]

As mentioned, Khan with some Black Knights would be pretty solid... S6 Corvis Hammers on the charge. Throw in Rad/Statis grenades and now, against MEQs, you are hitting on 3s, going before them on Initiative, and your S6 is double their T3, so ID possibilities against characters.

[The Yak]

Although I love the idea of Ravenwing and Whitescars joining forces, surely each captain would lead his own lads and compete for honours?

[facmanpob]

OK, so looking through the new C:SM, I don't think you need to take Khan at all. Khan's specific rules only come into play if he is the Warlord, and of course, Sammy is going to be our warlord. So my current view for an allied force is:

- White Scar Captain on a bike with artificer armour and a relic blade (unlocking units of 5+ bikes as troops in any detachment) (similar cost to Khan but with a 2+ armour save)

- 2 x unit of 4 bikes (with 2 grav rifles) + MMAB as troops (approx 340 points for both squads)

- Storm Talon as the FA choice (about 40 points cheaper than the Neph with the lascannon option)

Total cost is approx 630 points, leaving more than enough for a solid Ravenwing primary detachment with all of the Black Knight, dakka banner/RW banner, RAS goodness.....

That way we get to run plasma talons, RW grenade launchers *AND* relentless grav rifles!!!!

[Surrender_Monkey]

I haven't got the new SM codex yet, so I must ask some obvious questions:

 

- Does a captain on bike allow bike squads as troops in an allied detachment? In the DA codex Sammael only unlocks bikes in a primary detachment, does the vanilla codex have different wording?

 

- One of the rumours prior to release was that a captain on bike only unlocked one bike squad as troops, to get a second you would need another captain on bike which is a no go in an allied detachment. Is this true? Edit: I just realise you could combat squad them, move along...

 

- Does the Codex mention anything about Deathwatch traits? I've got a Storm Talon that I've yet to paint and I'm thinking of painting it in Deathwatch Colours, I'm also going to do a Sternguard squad as Deathwatch. The theory is that I could then run them equally well in any space marine army without worrying about being the wrong colour for traits. I think Deathwatch bikes could look cool but obviously I'd prefer to use White Scar traits.

 

- Would a Darkshroud boost the White Scar bikes up to a 3+ cover save with no turbo boost? The wording in the codex is "all friendly units within..." whilst the sacred standards use the more specific "Any friendly Codex: Dark Angels unit within..." This would give them the survivability of Black Knights (but not the offensive power) at a much lower points cost.

 

I'm already up to my ears in bikes, but now I want some black ones to go with my bone guys!

[facmanpob]

I haven't got the new SM codex yet, so I must ask some obvious questions:

- Does a captain on bike allow bike squads as troops in an allied detachment? In the DA codex Sammael only unlocks bikes in a primary detachment, does the vanilla codex have different wording?

Yep, its says a detachment, doesn't specify Primary

- One of the rumours prior to release was that a captain on bike only unlocked one bike squad as troops, to get a second you would need another captain on bike which is a no go in an allied detachment.

It says Bike squads of 5+ may be taken as troop choices instead of FA, no mention of limits

- Does the Codex mention anything about Deathwatch traits? I've got a Storm Talon that I've yet to paint and I'm thinking of painting it in Deathwatch Colours, I'm also going to do a Sternguard squad as Deathwatch. The theory is that I could then run them equally well in any space marine army without worrying about being the wrong colour for traits. I think Deathwatch bikes could look cool but obviously I'd prefer to use White Scar traits.

Haven't seen Deathwatch mentioned

- Would a Darkshroud boost the White Scar bikes up to a 3+ cover save with no turbo boost? The wording in the codex is "all friendly units within..." whilst the sacred standards use the more specific "Any friendly Codex: Dark Angels unit within..." This would give them the survivability of Black Knights (but not the offensive power) at a much lower points cost.

Yes it would confer Stealth on to any Codex Space Marine unit. You could also attach Sammael to a White Scar bike unit so that they get Skilled Rider, which would also boost their jink save by +1. the WS trait is not Skilled Rider, it is a different one.... Born in the Saddle

[Surrender_Monkey]

I hadn't thought about the skilled rider boost. A 2+ cover save and you can still shoot!

 

I have a feeling that is going to get FAQed, either born in the saddle not stacking with skilled rider or the dark shroud reworded to only work on Dark Angels, best abuse it whilst you still can!