More tanks than dudes; Defeating the Serpent Spam

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So, the list has been doing the rounds. No tourney wins yet AFAIK, but I can predict strong showings like Crons have been managing with their AB spam. 

 

What is Serpent Spam? Well, its bringing as many Wave Serpents with scatter laser+shuriken cannon as possible. 4 is typical, 4+ means they're really janking their list to cram in as many as is legal. 

 

Why Serpents, you say? Aren't they AV12 overpriced garbage? Not quite. New skimmer rules give them a 5+ cover save for standing still. If they move 12", they get 4+. If they move over 12", they get 3+. Yes, this apparently passed playtesting. Mech is back baby, on Eldar no less. 

 

Something else that apparently never got fixed was the Serpent Shield. D6+1 S7 hits, with 60" range, and Ignore Cover...I have a feeling this was meant to be one-use, but then they decided to throw Eldar a bone. In this case, the designers probably thought 'you know what? Screw IG. And that Aegis line'. 

 

The final shenanigan is the scatter laser. Under the new rules, if the scatter laser tags you even once, all other weapons fired by the Serpent get twin-linked. Because, reasons. This is co-axial weapon rules ported into normal 40k. The reason super-heavies have co-axial is because GW insists on giving anything not piloted by Marines BS3. On vastly cheaper AV12 skimmers, which are dedicated transports, and can pump out upwards of 10 shots a turn? Hue hue hue. 

 

 

So, being the kinda list Eldar like to face (elite, low model count means their problem of being elite, low model count is less punishing), how do Knights deal with this insanity? I have a few suggestions. Lets start with the least serious;

 

HQ:

 

Coteaz

(100 points)

 

(3) Inquisitor w/force sword+bolt pistol, Divination

(55 points)

 

Troops:

 

3 x plasma cannon servitors, Mystic

(70 points)

 

(4) 12 x Monkeys

(420 points)

 

Heavy Support:

 

(3) PsyDread

(135 points each)

 

2k on the nose. 2k is about where Serpent Spam is most obnoxious. 

 

Monkeys have a 5+ invul, so they really don't care about Ignore Cover. Coteaz ensures they can't get first turn unless they win the roll off and you miss your re-rollable 'Seize' chance (he really does give you good odds of getting first turn). Plasma cannons are in there to make up points and blow up his min-max Avengers/Guardians when they spill out of the flaming wreckage. 

 

The Inquisitors will try and roll 'Perfect Timing,' as will Coteaz. Failing that, they'll just swap for the primaris and try to break the cover saves. Being able to give 'Ignore Cover' to the monkeys or one of the PsyDreads (if all the monkeys are dead) means the Serpents die a lot faster. 

 

So yeah, the Dr Zaius list might work...maybe. 

 

 

On a more practical level, how do pure or balanced Knights deal with this? Rhinos won't work, neither will Razorbacks. I've heard rumblings of ressurecting the old bad tri-Raider list, and I can tell you now Eldar still aren't giving up their Dragons. Price hikes be damned, they got 18" range now, and you can bet at least 2-3 of the Serpents will have our favourite Eldar unit inside them. Not to mention Dragons work great at slagging Paladins and Terminators, ie the two infantry choices we have that can stand up to the stupid anti-infantry fire of Serpent Spam. Rock and a hard place, people. 

 

My personal feeling is we have to Ally in. Which Ally to use however, and which units, is a real headache. Board policy forbids me from discussing xenos alliances, so if we just stick with IG (Marines have Centurions I guess...), I'm thinking Vendettas and melta-Vets work. Blobs won't work, Ignore Cover and massed high Strength fire will obliterate even 50-man blobs. Hydras would be good, but Skyfire...urgh. Manticores maybe, he can spread out the Serpents with no real loss in effectiveness though...sigh, and no infantry to blow up anyway, its a mech list. 

 

Open thread guys. I have ideas, even lists when it comes to AV13 wall Crons, or gunline Tau etc. But this...this is just stupid and hits us right in our Achilles heel (low model count). I'm depressed thinking about bringing any Knight list up against it. At least Crons and Tau can be pinned down in melee, Eldar are just too fast. 

 

 

[Gentlemanloser]

Well we could use NDKs with PT and Heavy Incinerators.  You need a 6 to glance and strip a hull point, but at least they won't get a cover save! :P

 

On a more serious note, out best unit for taking these probably remians as our typical Psybolt dual TL Autocannon dread.  It's that, or spamming as many Psycannons as you possibly can.

 

Mathhammer time!

 

TL-Auto, TL-Auto, Psybolt Dread;

4 shots, 2.67 hits, 3.56 after rerolls.  1.78 Glances+, 0.59 Glance+ after 3+ Jink Save.

 

2 x Psycannons (can be got on a Purifier unit for 140 points, just a tad more expensive than the Dread)

8 shots, 5.33 hits, 1.78 Glance+, 0.59 Glance+ after 3+ Jink Save.

 

4 x Lascannon Shots (from 4 x Jokers at 140 points)

4 shots, 2 hits, 1 Glance+, 0.33 Glance+ after 3+ Jink Save.

 

It's interesting to note that a single Dread would on average strip the same amount of Hull points as 2 stationary Psycannons.  Which also isn't very much at all either.

 

I think we need to look at allies here.

[nurglez]

the ignore cover psychic power is only on the psyker and his unit, so you can't give it to the psyrifle dreads.

[Captain Idaho]

The new Stalker might be worthwhile a thought if you really want an ally. 8 shots a turn should do something to those nasty Wave Serpents.

[Gentlemanloser]

They're 'skyfire' so hit Skimmers on 6's don't they?

[Captain Idaho]

No.

 

Oh Gentlemanloser, you normally have better grasp of basic rules than that - shame on you! :p

[Gentlemanloser]

Opps...

Soz, don't have rulebook at work any more (silly managed service! ) and to be honest have paid little attention to the flier rules as a whole.

I tohught weapons with 'Skyfire' hit Fliers on normal BS, but non Fliers as Snap Shots.

Is this not the case? Do Skyfire weapons just hit everyone at normal BS?

Ah! Skimmers are included in the Skyfire rules...

Doh!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I think we need to look at allies here.

Yep :( every matchup I fight now, I just think 'I'd really like cheap infantry and tanks, or maybe a Riptide, to help out here'. Not to mention Tau Missilesides or IG Hydras are perfect against Serpents. 

 

 

the ignore cover psychic power is only on the psyker and his unit, so you can't give it to the psyrifle dreads.

 

Gah good catch. I'll edit the OP. 

 

 

The new Stalker might be worthwhile a thought if you really want an ally. 8 shots a turn should do something to those nasty Wave Serpents. 

 

>AV11

[Gentlemanloser]

Stalker is also looking to be quite, lackluster.

[Captain Idaho]

I was just about to make that post!

 

If it's just a substandard quad gun (without interceptor it is!) Then most people will buy as many as people who bought the DA fliers!

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed.

 

It seems GW has an aversion to implementing decent anti air.

 

I guess they haven't sold enough Fliers yet.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The joke is, the Stalker doesn't have Interceptor either, so unlike Missilesides it can't shoot you down as you show up. Which means the flyer gets its turn to blow up the Stalker. 

 

The guns aren't bad, but for AA Marines will still want their own aircraft. Sneaky GW, gotta get those Raven sales up ;)

[Captain Idaho]

If a flier can destroy a Stalker when it comes on, it can shoot down aircraft too.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Skyfire allows you to shoot fliers with normal BS, HOWEVER, unless you ALSO have Interceptor, you can only snap shoot at ground targets.

[Captain Idaho]

Read the Skyfire rules ;)

[librisrouge]

BRB, Page 42

 

Skyfire

A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots at other targets.

 

Thought I'd post it to clarify. I almost never take my Hydra but when I do it's when I know that I'm going to face more than average Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Ravenwing (Land Speeders.) That aspect of the rule gets ignored a lot and I usually have to read to to two or more opponents per tournament, not that I get to go to that many tournis.

 

EDIT: Um, I just realized that posting that word for word may be against forum policy. If it is, my apologizes and please remove it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So long as you reference it, you should be fine. 

 

Anyway, any more ideas guys? Vendettas+plasma Vets Allied, then using a GM to Outflank Terminators onto the Eldar DZ might work. That way we get behind the AV12 wall and force them to spread out a bit. Just gotta hide the GM somewhere on Turn 1. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Take SM as your Primary detachment, with Khan and Grav Bikes. ;)

 

Ally in your GK.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Grav Bike squads are sexy, no question. 6 shots and you can charge after? Ahahaha nice. 

 

I'm thinking we really are done as a primary list these days. We are much better supplementing other stronger armies, where we don't get exposed by having a lack of long-range guns. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed.

 

What do we bring?

 

Servo Skulls, SB Accolytes and NDK.  Maybe the odd Warp Quake.

 

WooT.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And our default Troops Terminators, which outclass every other Terminator squad in the game except Stormhammers (which can't score and have no shooting or frags). You'd be surprised how much Eldar, IG and Tau like a scoring unit that also murders most enemy melee specialists without breaking a sweat, and can charge gunlines and expect to survive. S10 force weapons, even being Unwieldly, end pretty much anything without Eternal Warrior, and halberds with 'Hammerhand' can kill MC's before they can swing. 

 

You forgot plasma cannon servitors ;) and monkey spam. Nobody builds Derpstrike lists anyway, due to stupid Reserve restrictions, so 'Warp Quake' isn't as relevant in 6th edition. You also forgot to mention Coteaz, Master of Space and Time. He basically out-Vect's Vect for first turn roll.