question about scouts

[wise_crak]

Hey guys,

 

just a quick question that's probably been asked before but what is the favoured scout unit I cant decide which to build!

i have 10 scouts half built just needing arms and cant decide what to give them

 

5 shot guns 5 bot pistols/chainswords

or

9 snipers and a heavy weapon

 

i have the idea that my scouts will be a unit to hold an enemy unit or 2 at bay giving the rest of my force time to get into position 

 

what are everyone elses experiences with scouts??

 

Wisey

[Reichfaust]

Personally, I am a big fan of a full unit of Sniper Scouts lead by Telion (although this may be impossible in the new codex thanks to stupid Chapter-specific character rules, but whatever) sitting on a backfield objective. With their bonus to cover saves they can be very resilient, Hellturkeys notwithstanding, especially behind an aegis or inside a ruin--the latter becoming even more potent if there is a techmarine somewhere in your army.

 

Most would advocate taking a missile launcher in such a squad, but I have always been partial to the Heavy Bolter with hellfire shells. My advice? Magnetise arms so you can run both. Or, failing that, run them armless in a few friendly games as both Snipers and regular Scouts, just to get a feel for them, and decide which loadout you like best. :)

[Creeger]

I rarely field an army without snipers. The ability to snipe heavy/special weapons, banners, sergeants, and shoot monstrous creatures in the eye is just too valuable for me to pass up. And sometimes they even pin stuff wahahahaa!

[Ishagu]

Snipers for sure!

[Azash]

Depends on what you want them to do and what you will be facing. I think CC scouts have lost allot in the move to 6th because of overwatch.

 

Snipers are a good support unit but not game breaking. Mainly they are effective because they have long range and they are cheap. The distance and cover saves tends to make up for our perceived weakness (only in comparison with PA marines tho) of the unit. Basically we treat them like the slowest kid in the class room when in reality they are not.

 

For dual purpose shooters and assault unit in small groups like mounted in LSS's your better off with Shotguns. I ran the numbers a long time ago and basically against MEQ your getting 1 more kill with 5 shut gun scouts shooting then assaulting than if you ran 5 cc scouts shooting bolt pistols and assaulting. 

 

 

With scouts tho your better off going with the actual sniper scout kit since you almost never field them without cloaks. If you have the standard scout kit I would generally go shot guns and use them as raiders.

 

However with the new Ultramarine Tactical Doctrine and the IF bolter drill I am starting to think that massed scouts outflanking off a board edge on foot could be a viable tactic. The threat range of the scouts at that point would be 18 inches from both short edges. I am using Dawn of War deployment as the analysis because that is the worst case scenario (the other two deployments this works better). So you have a projected threat radius on round 2 that is 18" from both short edges. Equipped correctly scout squads can motivate your opponent to bunch up in the remaining 4' center of the board. Once there bunched up in the middle I think that can be exploited. It will take some tinkering and testing tho.

[WarriorFish]

With the rumoured (and overdue) move of the LSS to a dedicated transport what do people think of it now? I've been satisfied with mine so far, it has enabled me to send my BP/CCW scouts in to wreck stuff quickly which has helped with podding but with a points drop for Scouts as well maybe worth considering more?

 

Say a couple to outflank and sow mischief/take out threats for the rest of your army to exploit, or maybe as a part of a larger Scout outflanking movement? Scouts are best kept cheap in my opinion so you can really make the most of the points drop.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I can't speak to the LSS with experience, since I'm a pure sniper man myself.  However, I can see it working beautifully as an Outflanking unit, delivering either bolter or shotgun scouts to a flank to provide some short-range firepower rapidly and fairly safely (automatic jink as a moving skimmer).

[Ishagu]

What can outflanking scouts do that sternguard in a drop pod can't?

 

I personally field Scout Snipers as they are very survivable behind cover with their camo cloaks...

[WarriorFish]

They're a hell of a lot cheaper for starters They also retain their mobility once they've arrived too, and they'd attract a lot less attention because it's easy to underestimate a Scout. Troop slots are plentiful unlike the ever more crowded Elites section, so they're not fighting other units for places either.

Bolter Scouts seem more appealing with the outflanking rules in 6th and along with some of the rumoured Chapter Tactics allowing re-rolls (I'm leaning towards the IF or IH ones). You could easily skim in and deliver a bit of bolter shock to squishy targets with their effectiveness magnified by other units performing similar roles. Your opponent will be forced to deal with them too lest they take out more backfield units or start sticking krak grenades to their tanks so it could really create an opening for your main force to exploit :)

[MagicMan]

If you can still infiltrate LSS's like you used to be able to :

Give it Multi-Meltas, the dudes inside get whatever + a Combi-Melta/Melta Bomb.

Infiltrate 18 inches away out of sight, first turn you move 12 inches and fire the Multi-Melta at a tank. Then the scouts assault from their Open-topped vehicle, shooting a melta on the way in and slapping a melta on the hull in CC.

Thats usually one tank gone.

If you can still assault after moving 12 inches from an open-topped. I haven't had a chance to do this in 6th, so the rules have probably changed.

[Zombie P]

Only if you go second. I think, or you might not even be able to charge at all from infiltrating. I think its that actually, you cant charge if you infiltrated, like no charging from reserve or deep strike.

 

Sounds like a cool plan though,

 

ZP

[Disruptor_fe404]

If you Infiltrate or Scout move, you are unable to charge in your first turn.

[Zombie P]

Thank you, my book is at the other house. :)

 

ZP

[MagicMan]

Shame! Used to do it all the time last edition. You still get two melta shots at a tank though, for fairly cheap.

 

Though if the scouts are exposed they'll bite it, as your opponent freaks out.

[Retaliation]

If you Infiltrate or Scout move, you are unable to charge in your first turn.

 

From the FAQ

 

Q: The rulebook states "A unit that makes a Scout redeployment

cannot charge in the first turn." Does this mean that if your

opponent has the first turn and you go second, your Scouting unit

can charge? (p41)

A: Yes.

 

As the wording is exactly the same, it is not that hard to argue infiltrate gets the same treatment. Especially since the rulebook states they mean player turn when they say turn.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Ah, my mistake. Very interesting.

[greatcrusade08]

just to clarify, LSS have never been able to infiltrate before this new codex release.

in 5th edition they did have a 24" scout move which amounts to the same thing.

 

aswell as infiltrate we also get scout, so infiltrate 18" away, scout to 12" away and then move up and shoot stuff.

however if we move more than 6" the guys inside cannot shoot.. so if your sloggin combi meltas you wont get to shoot them at close range unless you disembark from the transports and do so.

[Azash]

Is the extra mobility and a bs 3 MM shot worth the points tho? Even with a jink save its still armor 10 open topped. If u think Rhinos go down fast this thing can be glanced by mos armies basic troops. Point wise for 5 scouts and a LSS with MM you are already paying the same points for a full 10 man scout squad with a heavy weapon. You lose out on mobility but your survivability and fire power are salot better if your foot slogging.

[Excubitor]

I run my two storms with the heavy flamer, which is rumours are true becomes free this codex. I always run them with CCW/BP scouts because regardless of the mathhammer, they break the odds and do wonderful, wonderful things for me.

 

I'm interested in the RG tactics for a unit of bolter scouts, give them camo cloaks and on the first turn it's a 5+ cover in the open, more if they can scout behind some cover or if you gtg. Close combat loadouts get the same thing, and with the right support backing them up could force some interesting choices on an opponent. With the RG tactics looking like a fast army of jump pack units/transported units the scouts being right in your opponents face in the first turn with a decent cover save even in the open will be fairly durable and potentially dangerous.

[greatcrusade08]

Is the extra mobility and a bs 3 MM shot worth the points tho? Even with a jink save its still armor 10 open topped. If u think Rhinos go down fast this thing can be glanced by mos armies basic troops. Point wise for 5 scouts and a LSS with MM you are already paying the same points for a full 10 man scout squad with a heavy weapon. You lose out on mobility but your survivability and fire power are salot better if your foot slogging.

we had the exact same debate when the 5th ed dex was released, they are glass cannons for sure, but broken glass is dangerous

[WarriorFish]

I prefer the HF too, it's potent and avoids BS rolls but I have painted up a MM for use. I think I'll try it out when I get a second for a couple of LSS squads so I can have the option of going for the infantry and tank throat if I want, could be pretty effective in softening the enemy up prior to the main assault.

I've also got back to working on my Scout Bikers as they should go hand in hand with this. Might turn out to be a good codex for the 10th Company

[Azash]

Is the extra mobility and a bs 3 MM shot worth the points tho? Even with a jink save its still armor 10 open topped. If u think Rhinos go down fast this thing can be glanced by mos armies basic troops. Point wise for 5 scouts and a LSS with MM you are already paying the same points for a full 10 man scout squad with a heavy weapon. You lose out on mobility but your survivability and fire power are salot better if your foot slogging.

we had the exact same debate when the 5th ed dex was released, they are glass cannons for sure, but broken glass is dangerous

I ran them back in 5th so I know how brutally effective they were. However 6th really hurt them dedicated or not (don't get me wrong dedicated is a 10,000% improvement for the unit) the changes to scout move the restrictions on assaulting and movement. Then you get into hull points and the vehicle assault rules and they really did take a rules beating. The reason D Eldar, Eldar, and Tau skimmers are survivable is because they have bonuses to there jink. Hell I've played against wave serpents that have a 3+ jink. LSS just has a strait up jink unless your taking special chapter tactics but I am not sure if the White Scar or Ravenguard chapter tactics would make them any more survivable. I think those are applicable to specific unit types.

Folks seem to forget one of the durability issues is that speeders in 5th it took a 6 to hit them in CC assault. Unless I am mistaken that is no longer the case. You float out there and I may shoot you with bolt pistols and if that doesn't finish you off the 10 krak grenades in CC assault most certainly will. What is even more lethal is you get to close (and you have to be within 7.5" to 12" to make the HF and MM effective) and your opponent can move up glance or pop the LSS and then assault the scouts with the same unit.

Back in 5th I learned with my 5 man CC scout squads you wanted to pick the assault. If it assaulted you it meant you were going to lose the unit in one round.

P.S. also back in the last edition everybody and his brother wasn't fielding an ADL with a Quad gun.

[Ishagu]

Scouts are so squishy, and not really that cheap.

Sending them in to the fight will get them killed.

 

I really think that Snipers in cover is the only way to go. At least they can harass and distract the enemy for a few turns.