VotLW tax, is it really that bad?

[HsojVvad]

New to CSM. Not familiar with the rules yet. I keep reading about the VotLW tax. Well isn't it that bad? I mean from what I read, you don't have to pay the Abadon tax.

 

So what is better? If you don't plan on using Abadon, are you still not saving points with VotLW?

[Daniel the Viking]

Vets is not that bad when you consider that it's only 1 pt on bog marines and cult troops, but that said, once you start taking chosen, terminators, oblitorators, Possessed, raptors or warp talons (why i don't know) you start playing an extra 20+ pts per squad BEFORE upgrades, for a series of units that ARE NOT fearless which you also have to pay for, leaving your ELITE codex options extremely expensive and not entirely viable. Especially when you compare this to the and they shall know no fear rule which doesn't mean a whole lot on bog tactical marines but when you transpose that to a squad like vets or terminators it really highlights the imbalance.

[the jeske]

New to CSM. Not familiar with the rules yet. I keep reading about the VotLW tax. Well isn't it that bad? I mean from what I read, you don't have to pay the Abadon tax.

 

So what is better? If you don't plan on using Abadon, are you still not saving points with VotLW?

it is not worth it. same sized units as the chosen you will be using cost the same and while they are runing 2-3 plasmas less.  they are a lot more resilient then the chosen too,

[minionboy]

It's not that bad because likely you wont be using CSM as your troops, nor will you be taking chosen, or nearly anything else that can take VOTLW, except maybe bikes, havocs and obliterators, most of which you'd want to take VOTLW on anyhow.

 

Really, the "tax" is a bigger penalty to players making less-than-competitive lists anyhow, so it doesn't really matter.

[Fibonacci]

I might take Black Legion as allies for a daemon army.  Flying DP for HQ, plasma chosen for troops and a Heldrake.  I'll pay the BL vet tax for those 5 chosen.

[RapatoR]

Well, VotlW is good upgrade, but this:

 

Vets is not that bad when you consider that it's only 1 pt on bog marines and cult troops, but that said, once you start taking chosen, terminators, oblitorators, Possessed, raptors or warp talons (why i don't know) you start playing an extra 20+ pts per squad BEFORE upgrades, for a series of units that ARE NOT fearless which you also have to pay for

It is pricier on units, that already are quite pricy, so this might present a problem.

[HsojVvad]

I am a bit confused. I guess, I should buy the BL supplement but sadly I can't right now. I mean I keep reading about VotLW. If you take Abby, you get Chosen as troops (sorry forget what they are called). So if you use the BL supplement, and dont use Abby, you save a bunch of points to make the Chosen troops. Still pay the VotW tax, but you don't have to pay the Abby tax. 

 

So are you not saving points then? I thought people wanted Chosen as troops. Now you can take them without Abby. I thought you would be saving points. Time to find my CSM codex and start reading again. :P

[derpasaurus]

There's a lot of hate for this codex, for some reason. 
Unless you're super crazy competitive don't listen to them. Do what you want. I almost always take Vets on anything that can, unless i'm crammed for points. I also use REGULARMARINES and CHOSEN and RAPTORS so I'm apparently a special (maybe even short-bus special, according to the vast majority of the internet) case. 

I dunno. I just like building/painting/killing things and taking models off the table. My set up is pretty expensive but pretty great when my dice don't decide to crap all over me. 10 marines, 2 plas, rhino, tooled up champ, vets, MoS, etc, around 300 points. lots of firepower, pretty quick til their transport gets blasted. My worst showing was when 4 of 6 of my army's plasma gunners nuked themselves over 2 turns of shooting. 

The more you sink into them, the more it hurts when they go down, but if you build em right they can do a lot of damage, and maybe even be... FUN.

[HJL]

I quite like the black legion codex. The upgraded terminators and propper daemon sword make them worth it as allies for me. Ws 5 bs 5 terminators that reroll hits on the charge against marines for the same cost as a regular squad of codex marine terminators? Yes please!

[Hezirah]

I quite like the black legion codex. The upgraded terminators and propper daemon sword make them worth it as allies for me. Ws 5 bs 5 terminators that reroll hits on the charge against marines for the same cost as a regular squad of codex marine terminators? Yes please!

Are they similar in cost compared to terminators or assault terminators? Also, does it include powerfist upgrade for terminators?

 

Just wandering. Because if it does, its pretty descent even without ASKNF (though there is Abby tax).

[HJL]

well they come with power weapons which i just take as axes, not quite as good as fists perhaps, but they are free. you also dont need abbadon to take them.

[RapatoR]

I am a bit confused. I guess, I should buy the BL supplement but sadly I can't right now. I mean I keep reading about VotLW. If you take Abby, you get Chosen as troops (sorry forget what they are called). So if you use the BL supplement, and dont use Abby, you save a bunch of points to make the Chosen troops. Still pay the VotW tax, but you don't have to pay the Abby tax.

So are you not saving points then? I thought people wanted Chosen as troops. Now you can take them without Abby. I thought you would be saving points. Time to find my CSM codex and start reading again.

It is hard to actually calculate this "tax" as it depends upon which things do you plan to field and what should we calclate into "Abby tax" (Abby or Abby + squad + transport).

There's a lot of hate for this codex, for some reason.

Unless you're super crazy competitive don't listen to them. Do what you want. I almost always take Vets on anything that can, unless i'm crammed for points. I also use REGULARMARINES and CHOSEN and RAPTORS so I'm apparently a special (maybe even short-bus special, according to the vast majority of the internet) case.

Dude, there is no way I am hyper-super competetive player. I field same units you mentioned (well my "freshly" converted raptors are just about to get painted, hopefully they will be ready by the end of the century ) and if Chosen still had infiltrate I would go for BL supplement adn chosen without second thought because OMGOMGinfiltratealphalegionmusthave.

Still, there are moments that will raise eyebrow even if you are casual player (Honestly you never skimmed through units section and thought: hmm VotlW for bikes 1 pt and for raptors 2 pts, why is that?) and moments when you consider price of things (Or, well those possessed are expensive, should I make them Veterans for 2 pts when they already have nasty CC ability and are fearless? Or should I use those points for two boon rolls? and so on) After all you gotta pay those points and manage them if you want to play (with exception of pre-determined scenario, but then you leave out entire list-building), not just for tournament.

EDIT:

well they come with power weapons which i just take as axes, not quite as good as fists perhaps, but they are free. you also dont need abbadon to take them.

IIRC you need Abby for Bringers.

[Sception]

Vets is ok on basic CSMs.  But the more overpriced a given unit is, the more overpriced the vet option tends to be on top of it.  There is not a single unit in the army that can take vets that would have turned heads had the vets rule been included for free.  Not one.  So the more vets costs proportional to the cost of the model, the more onerous the expense is.

[Rayray]

Taking vets has been useful for my word bearers, as it is in line with fluff, and I am generally surrounded by loyalist players (and get into the grind of close combat with wolves often, sometimes ravenwing). But that's coming from a casual player's point of view.

[Tenebris]

The VotLW is indeed a very heavy tax in the long run. If you focus on things like basic CSM the point spent is nothing scary but if you take multiple squads of CSM, with some options like Obliterators, Chosen, Terminators and an additional HQ you can quickly see the tax spiral into a 100+ points for little to no return value.

 

In general two out of three games will be against the loyalist marines of some kind. This could be used to justify the VotLW but if one does some calculations than wouldn't more Plasma Guns, an extra Obliterator or hell even some Marks here and there have a much wider use for our army. 

 

In the end the units that matter get the Fearless of some kind, be it via Lord or via Icon, leaving the mandatory or filler units that if they really need the extra point of Discipline than something has already gone wrong with our tactics. On the other side you have the reroll in close combat but the question here is, do we really want to be in melee with a squad that has a Discipline value so low that requires the VotLW. In my experience if I get into melee it is usually with a Fearless squad of some kind which being a proper melee unit, thus rightfully in melee, has often more attacks and the stats needed to survive the close combat phase, so VotLW becomes a bit redundant.

 

Than we get to the sour part of the tax, VotLW on expensive units like Termiantors. Now here the tax spirals very quickly very high and with the general thing that our units are subpar we should always invest points in more bodies rather in more upgrades. 

 

So yeah, the bottom line is that while a nice and fluffy rule, if mandatory VotLW can be a serious hindrance to an optimized army list for a tournament while it is good and proper for some fun lists. I say, take the BL only as allies and use the units which either have no option for VotLW or it comes already built in or free. 

[minigun762]

Taking vets has been useful for my word bearers, as it is in line with fluff, and I am generally surrounded by loyalist players (and get into the grind of close combat with wolves often, sometimes ravenwing). But that's coming from a casual player's point of view.

 

I think Vets is a very strong upgrade for CSMs, Bikers, Havocs etc.

However it's overpriced on Raptors and Terminators.

In my opinion, there should have only been 3 pricing tiers.

Single wound units.

Multi wound units.

HQ units.

[Dam13n]

I generally don't bother with it on my units.

 

- Chaos Lord(s) are already fearless and Ld 10, so I can't be bothered with it.

- Plague Marines are already Fearless so I could care less about +1 Ld.  Plus, they don't usually aim to get into combat - so Hatred is equally pointless.

- CSM - well 2 units of 10 + 2 Flamers per unit for 150pts each (or 10 + Flamer/Autocannon for 155pts each) is what I take, and they generally are ignored to the point that they rarely suffer any casualties or get threatened with any meaningful combats, so +1 Ld and Hatred are again, pointless.

- Obliterators - 1 unit of 3 with MoN, and often joined by my Nurgle Lord in TA if I'm going to castle up (the only time they tend to get targeted, as I'll have little midfield threat to divert enemy firepower) so - no combat and made fearless by the lord when appropriate.

 

Now I do buy it for my Chosen:

1 - because it's fluffy, they are my Veteran Chaos Marines after all.

2 - because a unit with 5 flamers, ultra-grit and VotLW is a nasty surprise for many a unit.

3 - they are my midfield units, either used for board control (or, if I have Deception - First Blood getters) so they do get targeted, and take casualties, so the +1 Ld is more useful.

 

The rest of my army is invariably vehicles, so no VotLW for them.

 

I am working out whether it would be worth using Black Legion allies:

Chaos Lord in TA with the new Daemon Sword and probably a combi-plasma (and the MoN of course).

5 Chosen with Meltas & VotLW in Rhino

5 Chosen with Flamers & VotLW in Rhino

Now I already take both units of Chosen as they are above in my standard CSM list, they'll just become scoring units - even better for board control.

 

But I'm waiting for the hardcover supplement to come out before I buy it.

[ChaosRising]

Ok, I guess it's time to add my two cents worth...*puts in two cents*

 

Let me preface this by saying that I played Chaos on and off for a couple months and monkeyed around with some combinations involving Vets. Having thrown that disclaimer out there...

 

I think the vets option is a decent upgrade, depending on your play style.

 

My best "blanket" advice, if you want to go all out on vets, is to try and take a lot of squads that already have the rule. This would require "unlocking" up to two elite Legions (Thousand Sons, World Eaters, etc) by taking the appropriate HQ (Ahriman, Khârn, or whoever matches your choice) and maxing out on the squads in question. I would recommend unlocking only one elite Legion, so that you get the max on Elite-turned-Troops squads. This way, your HQ already has the Vets rule, and you now have the maximum amount of units with Vets in your Troops section at almost the same cost as you would normally pay for a similarly sized unit.

 

For elites, I would take three squads from one other Legion.

 

Here is a sample of what I mean.

(no pts listed - purely for illustration)

 

HQ

Khârn (general)

Daemon Prince of [Choose your Mark]

 

Troops

Khorne Berserker Squad 1 - 20 models

Khorne Berserker Squad 2 - 20 models

Khorne Berserker Squad 3 - 20 models

Khorne Berserker Squad 4 - 20 models

Khorne Berserker Squad 5 - 20 models

Khorne Berserker Squad 6 - 20 models

 

Elites*

Thousand Sons Squad 1 - 20 models

Thousand Sons Squad 2 - 20 models

Thousand Sons Squad 3 - 20 models

 

*I picked Thousand Sons as an Example, but it could be Plague Marines, Death Guard, or any mix of the three.

 

If you do not want to go *all* out on Vets, my next suggestion would be a trimmed down version of the above. Below is a sample of a list that I have used more than once in friendly games near me.

 

(as before, not listing points or upgrades other than Marks and Vets upgrade. Any upgrades are listed as + )

 

HQ

 

Chaos Lord

+Vets

+Mark of Khorne

 

TROOPS

 

5 Khorne Berzerkers

-Vets (free)

 

5 CSM

-bolt pistols & chainswords (free)

+Mark of Khorne

+Vets

 

6 CSM

-bolters (free)

+Mark of Nurgle

+Vets

(they have been modeled w/ knives and pistols in addition to their bolters. If points allow I will upgrade them accordingly)

 

7 CSM

-bolters (free)

-no Mark

+Vets

 

5 CSM

-bolt pistols and chainswords (free)

-no Mark

+Vets

 

So...in that list, if I got rid of all the Vet upgrades I would only free up points for two more guys (one would be Khorne). In my mind, not even worth considering, given the Ld boost you gain from Vets. Not to mention that if you don't know who you'll be playing against, it's always nice to know that you can ruin a Loyalist's day at any given second without batting an eyelid.

[the jeske]

But if you play the  BL dex you can't skip on vets. Anything that can take it has to take it.

[Dam13n]

 

ChaosRising

 

5 Khorne Berzerkers

-Vets (free) 

 

VotLW isn't free on Berserkers, it's 1pt/model, just like on CSM.

 

The only Cult unit that gets VotLW included in their base cost are Thousand Sons.