space marines rumours, do we have cause to feel aggreived?

[hornywingythingy]

Given all we have now is the heldrake, defiler and cult marines making us unique, are we right to feel aggrieved? I'm looking at the rumours and seriously considering running generic marines instead of csm, perversely ultra marines for a stand in alpha legion. They even have better demon weapon equivalents than we do....

[Sception]

Annoyed at the designers, for changing their minds on whether legion rules are viable in only a few short months? Absolutely.

 

Annoyed that space marines picked up versions of oblits and mutilators? Slightly less so. After all, we just got tech marines and chaplains. Still would have preferred drop pods, but whatever.

 

Angry at space marine players for having a nicer book than us? No, not at all justified for that. It's not their fault.

 

 

Also, from what I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the SM book. It looks well made, with a lot of options and a lot of fun without being over the top in terms of power. So it gets a big thumbs up from me - though I'm not a good pre-emptive judge, so my opinion could change once people get a hold on it and really start putting it through its paces.

 

The point to emphasize is that if the SM book is good (as in well written and well balanced, not 'powerful'), where ours is not, then the problem is with our book, not there's. If we're angry, it should be that we didn't get a respectful treatment, not that they did.

 

 

Of course, chances are that they won't be as powerful as the most powerful dual drake CSM builds in terms of winning games. I could be wrong, and I'm still a touch leery of gravturions, but I haven't heard of anything especially over the top that way yet. Which means chaos players will still tend to whine while winning, making us look like idiots to the rest of the community no matter how legitimate our complaints might be.

[daveNYC]

I'm not sure why we should worry about looking like idiots to the rest of the community when it's usually their reading comprehension that's the problem.  Specifically their inability to grasp that 'sucks' is not a synonym for 'not-powerful'.

[Tenebris]

I do not begrudge them a good book with so far good rules, nice models and plenty of character. But I say that I am a bit envious that they will have so much variety compared to us, THE faction defined by variety. Also the problem is that our special rules and legion traits will cost us a lot in the long turn compared to them. 

 

It is known fact that codex CSM was a rushed thing, a very rushed book and thus it came our subpar compared to most new books that followed ours. The SM players will have out of the box a book that allows them to play not one but several armies full of character, and many more combinations of those since they can ally intercodex so this is the part that struck me as most displeasing.

 

Without buying any additional supplements, a standard SM player can now field three HQ and a quasi double FOC way before hitting the 2000 points marks and if you take in the account the supplements that will follow the whole thing is awesome for them.

 

In our case our second Battle Brother ally is a subpar Black Legion that still struggles to find its character and comes with a hefty tax in the form of Veterans of the Long War and most of the Daemon armies are better without CSM allies. 

 

So yes, I am envious, not of the new rules, not of the new models and neither of the new looks, I am envious that their book offers so much to make an army with a strong character, with a soul that we at the moment cannot. In the end we have to rotate between five or six units and that is that while their own book allows to combine doctrines, special rules and characters into a whole that is much much greater than the sum of the parts.

 

This is a thing that even with a ton of supplements for Chaos we still wont be able to do properly, for our base book lacks diversity and the supplement is just a basic upgrade of the core codex so it is hard to build upon shaking foundations I dare say. That is my only grudge. 

[the jeske]

Given all we have now is the heldrake, defiler and cult marines making us unique, are we right to feel aggrieved? I'm looking at the rumours and seriously considering running generic marines instead of csm, perversely ultra marines for a stand in alpha legion. They even have better demon weapon equivalents than we do....

While chaos player maybe not fully content with their codex or even both of them , I don't think that we should feel bad about the sm one. Chaos got what people expected it would get and marines got what marines were suppose to get. No hard feelings imo.

[hornywingythingy]

Sorry folks, I didn't mean aggrieved at the sm players, I meant at the design team/gw as a whole, every faction deserves a decent cohesive dex, full of synergy and character, I'm also a nid player, so that's two dexes missing character.

 

The way I see it, is we pay money for gw product, they should provide good quality product, or the addicts will move on to something else!

[daveNYC]

I'm fine with being annoyed with GW.  As far as I can tell, their system for codex development seems to be calling out a faction name and seeing which one of their guys want's to do it.  Sometimes you get someone who is insanely psyched to do a particular faction, sometimes you get someone who is just dialing it in while waiting for the book they really want to do to become available.  It's pretty obvious to me that the various books reflect the interest their writer had in the subject.

[the jeske]

Not realy whole 5th I was saying how the 6th chaos dex will look like and it did end up just that. No suprise there . Same with marines , larger player base , more armies which may generate extra sales when they are  bit different , while different lists for chaos don't do the same . Self ally option ,something we had to wait for. It is nothing I wouldn't expect . Just like with the DA dex  it is nice to see that sm got an ok codex , better yet they don;t get auto killed by drakes so it is actualy better then what DAs have.

[RapatoR]

Well for one I am happy about it. We see that GW can listen to the feedback from fanbase: Chapter tactics are no longer tied to the characters, forced challenges are no more (even Accept Any Challenge No Matter The Odds does not force you to take challenges, instead encourages you to do it with special rules) and so on.

 

Also RC created really characterfull book with wide variety of options that seems to be well ballaced internally and externally so kudos to him. If this tredn continues there is no reason to feel aggreived.

 

This means that as 6th goes gurther, GW might listen to feedback and eventually change some things in our book via FAQs (heck it already happened). As for rules legions I am not concerned, there will be supplements eventually (my only concern is if non-god legions will be released at all, because we hear rumours of god specific legions coming next).

[HsojVvad]

Sorry folks, I didn't mean aggrieved at the sm players, I meant at the design team/gw as a whole, every faction deserves a decent cohesive dex, full of synergy and character, I'm also a nid player, so that's two dexes missing character.

 

The way I see it, is we pay money for gw product, they should provide good quality product, or the addicts will move on to something else!

 

I am new to CSM. I can start to see what CSM players are talking about now. Before, I was just Tyranid and Dark Angel player. So it's the same thing for me over and over again. 

 

I know what you mean. You don't want a super powerful codex, just want to be the same, rich with character like other codexes. 

 

Problem is, GW is like a batter wife syndrom. No matter how much GW slaps us in the face, We love them so much we keep coming back. 

Even if people don't buy GW products no more, they are still on GW related sites and talking about them. You know what they say, "bad press

is free press" so GW is still getting their free advertising from people who "hate" GW. 

 

So nothing will ever change until people actually stop the GW hobby. That includes talking about them on the internet. 

 

That being said, we all have imagination. If you see another codex that better represents your army, then take it. You are not using the fluff, 

you are using the rules. Make your fluff to those rules. I remember a DA player using the SW codex because it better represented the DA 

more fluffily than the actual 4e DA codex. So go ahead and use the SM codex to represent your army. After all it's the rules you are using

not the fluff. 

[HJL]

Are you sure your not over reacting a little? Battered wife syndrome? Sure the chaos codex isnt a win all but its hardly as bad as all that. As for quitting the hobby because my codex isnt the greatest ever, thats just dumb. This is the sort of over reactions that are driving people out of the chaos forums. I honestly dobt mean a personal attack its just very frustrating not wanting to read these forums that i love any more because of the incessant complaining. Seriously look down the list of threads and try to see how many contain no whining :(

[Xenith]

If you just play the game and push models around the table while making zappy and whizzy noises, and coming up with a backstory, like it was meant to be played, you'll have a much better time.

 

I stopped looking at CSM from a gaming perspective a little while ago, and made some Pure Tzeentch lists. they may not be 'optimal', but i gets my beloved Thousand Sons back on the table, and killing the lap dogs of the false emperor. 

[Zhorzh]

 

If you just play the game and push models around the table while making zappy and whizzy noises, and coming up with a backstory, like it was meant to be played, you'll have a much better time.

 

Beside the point that only 3-year olds do this, this game is way too expensive and time consuming to be played like that. Why should I spend 300-500 dollars on an army, spend considerable time painting it, and end up playing this game like Parcheesi when I could buy a board game instead?

[HsojVvad]

Are you sure your not over reacting a little? Battered wife syndrome? Sure the chaos codex isnt a win all but its hardly as bad as all that. As for quitting the hobby because my codex isnt the greatest ever, thats just dumb. This is the sort of over reactions that are driving people out of the chaos forums. I honestly dobt mean a personal attack its just very frustrating not wanting to read these forums that i love any more because of the incessant complaining. Seriously look down the list of threads and try to see how many contain no whining

I no means did I mean for the CSM codex. I ment for people who hate GW. No matter how bad some people talk bad/poorly about GW, they are still here either playing the game, or talking about them. I mean if you hate someone so much, how come you keep playing their product, keep buying their stuff, and keep talking about them.

So in essence, they claim GW keeps slapping them in the face, by increasing prices, one click deals like they are idiots, not listening to veterans, no more tables at store, etc etc, but they still keep coming back.

[hornywingythingy]

Are you sure your not over reacting a little? Battered wife syndrome? Sure the chaos codex isnt a win all but its hardly as bad as all that. As for quitting the hobby because my codex isnt the greatest ever, thats just dumb. This is the sort of over reactions that are driving people out of the chaos forums. I honestly dobt mean a personal attack its just very frustrating not wanting to read these forums that i love any more because of the incessant complaining. Seriously look down the list of threads and try to see how many contain no whining :(

I can see where he is coming from, melodramatic analogues aside, csm players have asked for one think back since 3.5, legion rules, gw keep slapping the gavdex mkX down, and we keep buying it.

 

Its hard to be positive when its obvious your codex designer didn't care for the project, look at demons, same author, tons more fun to play.

[Elrahir]

The csm codex ain't bad, it just needs a lil' more flavour, update the codex with a 3.5 ed style supplement codex that adds up some restrictions and some extra rules for our long forgotten chaos legions (which brings it in-line with the more fluffy concerned new sm codex), and i will be happy with you gw.

 

OH OH and plz gief csm legal dreadclaws, if i can wishlist here.

[darknightdrako]

Given all we have now is the heldrake, defiler and cult marines making us unique, are we right to feel aggrieved? I'm looking at the rumours and seriously considering running generic marines instead of csm, perversely ultra marines for a stand in alpha legion. They even have better demon weapon equivalents than we do....

 

How bout making an Astral Claws or Red Corsair Army? Surely the new traitors would not abandon their old fighting style and equipment that fast.

[the jeske]

they ritualy destroy all the loyalist tech , when they go chaos.

[Elrahir]

Considering they are of unknown parent legion gene-seed origin, you can go full shenanigans, but what's the point? They didn't go all full chaos as fluff says, some are there just because they had enough with the Imperium, so yes you can do it. I just don't like the looks of the imperialists when they see you playing counts-as, some even won't let you. Let the new smurfs and friends come, change the meta and give us some new food for thought how to oppose them.

[hornywingythingy]

 

 

Given all we have now is the heldrake, defiler and cult marines making us unique, are we right to feel aggrieved? I'm looking at the rumours and seriously considering running generic marines instead of csm, perversely ultra marines for a stand in alpha legion. They even have better demon weapon equivalents than we do....

How bout making an Astral Claws or Red Corsair Army? Surely the new traitors would not abandon their old fighting style and equipment that fast.

I already have 60+ alpha legionaries painted up from 3.5, I'm not repainting them all. The idea of pick the tactics you want this turn kinda fits the adaptability/decentralised leadership fluff of the alphas, much more than the doggedly doctrined fluff of the ultras tbh.

[Xenith]

 

 

If you just play the game and push models around the table while making zappy and whizzy noises, and coming up with a backstory, like it was meant to be played, you'll have a much better time.

 

Beside the point that only 3-year olds do this, this game is way too expensive and time consuming to be played like that. Why should I spend 300-500 dollars on an army, spend considerable time painting it, and end up playing this game like Parcheesi when I could buy a board game instead?

 

Wow, if only 3 years olds come up with backstory to the mdoels and make explody noises, I'm sure many black library writers would like to have words with you. It's still a tactical game, and people enjoy gaming for different reasons. If you are being made angry and annoyed by the game, or the way you play the game, then it is maybe time to step back and reassess how you approach the game.

[minionboy]

I think the biggest reason to be jealous is that marine players have less issues with taking what's good in their list.  Chaos players often get into what they think fits their theme and that stops them from taking the best choices available.  In the long run and in a competitive setting, people will focus on the best units for each slot and ignore the others, it has nothing to do with GW hating one army or another, it is entirely about efficiency.

 

The notion that the CSM book is any more limited in "good" choices than other books is just wrong... If you don't believe it, take a look at the Eldar book (since that seems to be the most common army at the moment).  Pretty much everyone takes the same HQ, ignores the Elites, Troops are generally either bikes or min-squads of avengers in razorbacks, fast are mostly ignored except for warp spiders, and heavy support may as just be fire prisms, wraith knights and dark reapers.

[the jeske]

Well in the end It comes down to cash and what you can do with the stuff you own. A SM or SW player can drasticly change the game play with just a switch of transport. We can't do that and it makes our dudes boring.

[Zhorzh]

Man, Dark Angel players should be the ones crying over the new Marine codex. The history has repeated itself and DA got outperformed by the new Marine codex yet again.

 

The way I see from the rumours there will be many, many ways to play Marines. There are only 3-4 ways to play DAs: Green Marines, Deathwing, Ravenwing and mixed. I'm not sure about mixed but Ravenwing and Deathwing are gimmicky armies and while Green Marines are good, they're still worse than their Vanilla counterparts (Stubborn instead of voluntary retreat).

 

DA don't have the new Marine toys - anti air tanks, Centurions, hell they don't have even good old stuff like Sternguard, and Vanguard Veterans which might end up being very good.

 

Basically - Marines get everything that DA get, and instead of DA specific toys and units they get their own which are IMO better.

 

 

Wow, if only 3 years olds come up with backstory to the mdoels and make explody noises, I'm sure many black library writers would like to have words with you.

 

Don't forget about pushing models.

 

 

It's still a tactical game, and people enjoy gaming for different reasons.

 

Then let people enjoy gaming the way they like, instead of suggesting or forcing your style of play to them.

 

 

If you are being made angry and annoyed by the game, or the way you play the game, then it is maybe time to step back and reassess how you
approach the game.

 

Did I really sound like I was being annoyed about anything?

[Urauloth]

The new SM codex looks really good on several levels. I'm glad GW is making good codexes again, I just wish CSM could have been one of them.

 

I expect a fair number of chaos players will be proxying their legion with this codex, honestly. I know I'd be looking at iron hands if I ran IW.