space marines rumours, do we have cause to feel aggreived?

[Noctus Cornix]

I suppose I shouldn't be all that surprised that a thread like this shows up. A similar one showed up when the Dark Angels codex was released and I have little doubts that another will be posted when the next loyalist codex comes out.

[Scribe]

I think the biggest reason to be jealous is that marine players have less issues with taking what's good in their list. Chaos players often get into what they think fits their theme and that stops them from taking the best choices available. In the long run and in a competitive setting, people will focus on the best units for each slot and ignore the others, it has nothing to do with GW hating one army or another, it is entirely about efficiency.

The notion that the CSM book is any more limited in "good" choices than other books is just wrong... If you don't believe it, take a look at the Eldar book (since that seems to be the most common army at the moment). Pretty much everyone takes the same HQ, ignores the Elites, Troops are generally either bikes or min-squads of avengers in razorbacks, fast are mostly ignored except for warp spiders, and heavy support may as just be fire prisms, wraith knights and dark reapers.

This is really a huge part of it for a wide swath of the Chaos community. Since 3.5 we have felt variously empowered/shackled by the fluff we where given. Some love it, some hate it, and that feeling colours our perception of the books that have come since. I am as guilty of this as anyone. I didnt feel it was a negative in spirit to try and fit an image of a World Eater army, but in practice without sufficient support in the rules and language of the book, it came across as more limitation (self inflicted I will admit) than a boon.

Fast forward to me spending far to much time and money on these intentionally limited lists with the new book (A Slaanesh CSM/Daemons force with Noise Marines and Heldrakes, and a varied Khornate host again of CSM/Daemons) and I get what a lot of people say, because I was one of the guys saying it the loudest.

The solution? Embrace the Black.

The Black Legion removes the limitations, and embraces (as of this new supplement) the entire array of the CSM faction. Your gene-sire is not important, your allegiance to a Warp God is not important, what is important is loyalty to the ideal of the Legion, personified in Abaddon.

Once you make that leap (or indeed do so while embracing the entire book as Count as for your own Legion/Warband) the book opens up, and the options become palatable, just like other books.

[the jeske]

The Black Legion removes the limitations, and embraces (as of this new

supplement) the entire array of the CSM faction. Your gene-sire is not

important, your allegiance to a Warp God is not important, what is

important is loyalty to the ideal of the Legion, personified in Abaddon.

That is in character right ? Because if not , then it makes as much sense as telling all marine players in 5th to play SW. Would get the same kind of warm response too.

[Tenebris]

Well one plays Black Legion because he is a fan of their story, likes Abaddon and thinks that what remains of the XVIth Legions are still some of the deadliest marines ever created. I think that the current codex is much more favorable to the portrayal of the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors with the Black Legion on a very far third place. 

 

As I have said above, I am only glad that we have a new book and a solid one to boot coming out soon. The Space Marines are my favorite prey, I like them roasted, shellshocked, clawed to death, corrupted, mindblown and from time to time impaled upon our trophy racks. Seriously we should be glad that the new book comes out, it means that every kid, their uncle and even the grandma would bring to the table the many Space Marines armies which are more often than not upgrades of the old AOBR kit with some shiny toy here and there. We will have plenty of geneseed to harvest, many souls to sacrifice and even some spare bolters to refill our armories. 

 

In the long turn though we will have some serious problems. Our supplements and the messianic new fluff will come at a steep price, in terms of money as well as in terms of gameplay. We live like it or not on borrowed time with our supplements but the problem as I presented in my first post is that our core book is severely lacking and since the authors will have to work with it there will be many nice things but still the base unit will be still subpar compared to most out there. There is a severe risk with Daemon/CSM books that it will hinder the Daemons who are better alone and would hinder us since we will be forced to take things that are not marines or marine like.

 

I call it the Chosen Problem, the supplement allows for this cool rule that the Chosen can be troops. Hooray, our "sternguard" can be troops, too bad that this very Chosen unit is so lacking and so out of tune that a list with them is atm. crippling itself. On the other side the supplements can upgrade the basic loyalist tactical marine in countless ways and most will be awesome, why? Because the basic tactical marine is a well rounded unit that is tailored to benefit from the many special rules or setups that the supplements provide.

 

That is the crux, our crux with the SM book and other loyalist power armor books. Their books offer a much more reliable platform to work with, a solid base, a good core, that you can expand and build upon while our book, our foundation is lacking thus no matter how much luster the authors put in a supplement the end result will be far from good, average at best or a hindrance at worst. 

 

So yeah, I feel a bit bitter, but I feel bitter when I look at my book and than at theirs and does not need a genius to realize that theirs will last much much longer and will be solid even past the full range of new codexes. 

 

 

And huzzah for my 500th post. Hooray for me. 

[Scribe]

 

The Black Legion removes the limitations, and embraces (as of this new

supplement) the entire array of the CSM faction. Your gene-sire is not

important, your allegiance to a Warp God is not important, what is

important is loyalty to the ideal of the Legion, personified in Abaddon.

That is in character right ? Because if not , then it makes as much sense as telling all marine players in 5th to play SW. Would get the same kind of warm response too.

 

Its in character so much as the flaws that are called out over and over again are 'in character' of a Legion-centric approach to CSM. World Eaters not having any shooting support is only a limitation if the playerbase makes it one. Alpha Legion not making use of cult marines or marks at all, is again, an artificial 'in character' limitation.

 

What running a Black Legion force allows is to move past those self imposed restrictions.

 

I am not claiming its the only answer to our issues, nor does it address all the various problems, but it helps for some.

[Urauloth]

How are the forum rules on discussion of counts-as armies here, anyway? I ask because between the upcoming FW minis and the templar rules in the new spehss mahreen codex I'm more excited about my word bearers than I have been in quite a while but I doubt it would be a popular conversational topic in the BT subforum, somehow.

[darknightdrako]

How are the forum rules on discussion of counts-as armies here, anyway? I ask because between the upcoming FW minis and the templar rules in the new spehss mahreen codex I'm more excited about my word bearers than I have been in quite a while but I doubt it would be a popular conversational topic in the BT subforum, somehow.

 

Before the  "counts as" flames turn up it usually ends in play as you like. It's your hobby you can do whatever you want with it considering the time and $$$ that is invested.

[Urauloth]

Oh aye. What I meant was where I should be discussing it - the place for the army's fluff and models, or the place for their actual list. I'd be inclined to assume the former, but I figured I'd check.

[the jeske]

all I know is that when you talk about lists you talk about depending on the codex you use.

[hornywingythingy]

I think the biggest reason to be jealous is that marine players have less issues with taking what's good in their list. Chaos players often get into what they think fits their theme and that stops them from taking the best choices available. In the long run and in a competitive setting, people will focus on the best units for each slot and ignore the others, it has nothing to do with GW hating one army or another, it is entirely about efficiency.

 

The notion that the CSM book is any more limited in "good" choices than other books is just wrong... If you don't believe it, take a look at the Eldar book (since that seems to be the most common army at the moment). Pretty much everyone takes the same HQ, ignores the Elites, Troops are generally either bikes or min-squads of avengers in razorbacks, fast are mostly ignored except for warp spiders, and heavy support may as just be fire prisms, wraith knights and dark reapers.

Totally wrong, at least uk tournie scene wise, seeing lots of players using hawks because they are brutal anti tau/backfield camper units, and seeing either the farseer or wraithseer as hq, sometimes a autarch if its a reserve heavy army. Also the warwalkers are still very popular, with the shoot/run they can often avoid retaliatory fire.

 

I thought like that when I first read the eldar dex, but the more you look at it the more builds there are, other than the most obvious waveserpent spam.

[chronosvulcan597]

I think the biggest reason to be jealous is that marine players have less issues with taking what's good in their list. Chaos players often get into what they think fits their theme and that stops them from taking the best choices available. In the long run and in a competitive setting, people will focus on the best units for each slot and ignore the others, it has nothing to do with GW hating one army or another, it is entirely about efficiency.

The notion that the CSM book is any more limited in "good" choices than other books is just wrong... If you don't believe it, take a look at the Eldar book (since that seems to be the most common army at the moment). Pretty much everyone takes the same HQ, ignores the Elites, Troops are generally either bikes or min-squads of avengers in razorbacks, fast are mostly ignored except for warp spiders, and heavy support may as just be fire prisms, wraith knights and dark reapers.

This is really a huge part of it for a wide swath of the Chaos community. Since 3.5 we have felt variously empowered/shackled by the fluff we where given. Some love it, some hate it, and that feeling colours our perception of the books that have come since. I am as guilty of this as anyone. I didnt feel it was a negative in spirit to try and fit an image of a World Eater army, but in practice without sufficient support in the rules and language of the book, it came across as more limitation (self inflicted I will admit) than a boon.

Fast forward to me spending far to much time and money on these intentionally limited lists with the new book (A Slaanesh CSM/Daemons force with Noise Marines and Heldrakes, and a varied Khornate host again of CSM/Daemons) and I get what a lot of people say, because I was one of the guys saying it the loudest.

The solution? Embrace the Black.

The Black Legion removes the limitations, and embraces (as of this new supplement) the entire array of the CSM faction. Your gene-sire is not important, your allegiance to a Warp God is not important, what is important is loyalty to the ideal of the Legion, personified in Abaddon.

Once you make that leap (or indeed do so while embracing the entire book as Count as for your own Legion/Warband) the book opens up, and the options become palatable, just like other books.

Are you saying what I think you are saying? Like how I am making my own Iron Warrior version of Plauge Marines but as special obliterator virus marines and then as the iron warriors support for Thousand of sons making dark mechanicus cybernetic squads with obliterator virus? I take the rules from the chaos space marine codex and make my own version of the models for my Iron Warriors that fit the fluff of my army. I hope to eventually have converted models for all types of units/characters in the chaos space marine codex for my Iron Warriors some day. Still need to get the black legion book.

I also hope that over the next year they might come up with Legion specific supplements like they did for Black Legion. I remember the days in 3rd edition when you could make a squad of terminator khorne bezerkers, thousand of sons, or plague marines and use the special rules for them.

The thing I also always think of if you are playing an apocalypse battle, you can always use space marines units but as a chaos version.

[the jeske]

The whole counts as thing is fine and well till you don't find out that NL lists are 3xpms 1xbiker lord+bikers 2 helldrakes +oblits/havocks WB lists are 3xpms 1xbiker lord+bikers 2 helldrakes +oblits/havocks , AL are 3xpms 1xbiker lord+bikers 2 helldrakes +oblits/havocks , BL lists are 3xpms 1xbiker lord+bikers 2 helldrakes +oblits/havocks etc.

 

That is the problem of post 3.5 chaos . Back in H-man days when someone said I play chaos it said nothing about the list , right now one doesn't even have to try guess.

[Sception]

Oh, come on, that's not fair. Some people run cultists or noise marines instead of plagues. Or spawn instead of bikes. And regardless, it doesn't tell you which ally they're using.

[Iron_Within]

I also hope that over the next year they might come up with Legion specific supplements like they did for Black Legion. I remember the days in 3rd edition when you could make a squad of terminator khorne bezerkers, thousand of sons, or plague marines and use the special rules for them.

The thing I also always think of if you are playing an apocalypse battle, you can always use space marines units but as a chaos version.

Please stop reminding us of such blissful days gone by of whimsy! it is just painful!

Seriously though.. I don't give a dam about how powerful the SM codex is. Because in terms of competitiveness we have the one word answer: Baledrake. What fills me with anger and envy is that to get my Iron Warrior fluff army the way I want I have to 'counts as', take allies and generally muck about, and this isn't because I have an unusual representation of the army in my head, this is an army I could do in days past. My Aspiring Champions with Servo Arms marching alongside Dreadnoughts, my storm squads geared for close assault and having the ability to get there. I want to add maulerfiends to what I had, I want my Khornate Berzerker warband have berzerker terminators like every frigging novel that has berzerkers. I want my drop pods, hell make them evil drop pods I don't care but I want my drop pods. I want my heavy artillery, I want my army to be twisted horrific relic seething with 10,000 years of hate for everything my loyalist opponent stands for. I want his Captain know that he's in for the fight of his life against my Chaos Lord that my Warsmith has waded through warzones that are legend to him, butchered hundreds of thousands, his claiming the head of dozens of Captains before him; not chuckle as his 2++ invulnerable kicks in and smacks me over the head with the S8 TH, ending 10,000 years of hate like it's a country stroll.

TL:DR I want a codex that relfects the fluff and the level of quality that the Space Marines codex has received, not this substandard dross.

[Blade_and_Honour]

To be honest, I just see the new space marine dex as a way to do my iron warriors. Sounds strange to say out loud, but I dont see iron warriors as "chaos". Yeah ok they use daemons to achieve there goals, but that is the thing, they USE them. For me, the space marine dex is going to be a good way to represent my Iron Warriors (except oblits) better than the CSM dex. The current CSM dex does not allow for "renegade" or just ones that has been pushed out of the imperium. Red corsairs being a good example. They have space marine chapters from a lot of chapters... I am in no way upset about this as it gives me a way to do the none mutated chapters of chaos :) and on the occasions use the CSM one for daemon forge stuff

Also, space marine dex has siege-esc tanks like the whirlwind and the use of orbital bombardment :)

 

 

Or is this just me?   

[the jeske]

except oblits

SM kind of a have their maulers and oblits too .

[Xenith]

SM kind of a have their maulers and oblits too .

 

If the Devastator centurions can take TL LC and (TL?) ML and fire both each turn for around 80pts/model, would that make them better than oblits? Where does that leave TLLC/ML dreads?

 

Marines have other ways of getting plasma cannons into the army.

 

 

Did I really sound like I was being annoyed about anything?

 

Yes.

[the jeske]

If the Devastator centurions can take TL LC and (TL?) ML and fire both

each turn for around 80pts/model, would that make them better than

oblits?

That depands if they are in cover or not . In cover they are better then oblits . outside of cover it is a bit more balanced.

[Nehekhare]

HsojVvad, on 30 Aug 2013 - 15:46, said:

nothing will ever change until people actually stop the GW hobby.

my advise is keeping up the hobby and just stop buying from the "model company". You don't need overpriced plastic miniatures for a narrative game, but even if you still want to use them, Fantasy Flight's 40k RPGs have better rules for that.

[Tenebris]

Actually there is a way to always have the edge with Games Workshop. Buy a company of basic SM and you can profitably play as Blood Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves and if you wish even as Renegade Astartes. Just don't buy spikey marines anymore. Add to that four Rhinos, 2 Land Raiders and the basic characters aka Librarian, Captain, Chaplain and spice the all with some Terminators and you have a collection that will stand the test of time and always have the edge since as soon as a new MEQ codex is out if you have a neutral color scheme you can play it and still be legit. And truth be told that is what I am about to do during the 6th. The only thing worth to remember is to switch an Assault Marine squad with a Biker squad. 

[daveNYC]

Actually there is a way to always have the edge with Games Workshop. Buy a company of basic SM and you can profitably play as Blood Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves and if you wish even as Renegade Astartes. Just don't buy spikey marines anymore.

Knowing GW, they'll take the lack of sales as a sign that the army isn't popular and the 7th Ed. Codex will be a SoB style WD codex.