Razorbacks any good?

[SRSFACE]

Mostly because I was thinking of getting that Reclusium bundle because I kind of want a second command squad for the models and wargear in it, I absolutely love that new chaplain, and I've been thinking of getting more dedicated transports for awhile, I got to looking at options for Razorbacks.

 

I am not a fan of Land Raiders in general (their firepower per price point is ludicrous) so I wanted to get something to offer a bit of extra protection for my Banner of Devastation. I don't care if the squad ever actually leaves the vehicle.

 

I noticed it can take for the same points as any other of it's "swap heavy bolters for" options, you get both a regular Lascannon AND a twin-linked Plasma Gun. Is this something only our chapter gets? Granted I guess we won't know what codex marines can do with their Razorbacks til that drops, but I figure if they didn't have it last edition that I doubt they get it now. Anyone confirm/deny? Doesn't really matter if other chapters can do it. That's just to sate my curiosity. It just seems like the most Dark Angels thing to do to a razorback besides clearly being the best option.

 

I can't help but notice that's not a thing in the Razorback kit according to the spruce posted on GW's official website. (Sprue 1 and sprue 2) I figure this means if we wanna do this, we've got to convert it ourselves?

 

For practically the cost of a tactical squad, I instead get something to tool around my command squad in that also has some pretty neat guns, essentially the heavy gun I'd get from tacking on another 5 guys to a squad for roughly the same price.

 

Anyone else run this? Have thoughts on it's effectiveness?

[Aradiel]

cant really help for the most part, has been a long time since i used apcs despite having 2 razors and 3 rhinos, since i pretty much have been playing pure footsloging deathwing, and very rarely pure ravenwing. what can i say, have been in a low model count army mood.

must remember the land raider is not just firepower per cost, its also transport and armor and assault ramps

about the las/twin plasma razor, marines allways had it, we lost it in the last codex (or 2) and just got it back in the current one, so i see no reason for marines not having it in the new codex

iirc the razor only has heavy bolter and twin lascannon on the sprue, the las/twin plasma was available in the previous razor model (metal turret), so i would say you need to convert. note that some ortions (twin assault cannon) are easy if you have a land raider crusader as the raider weapon mount is a perfect fit to the razor.

[Cod]

Ok, well the Land Raider does give you much more survivability but I understand why you don't want one. I agree the new Chappy with razorback command squad looks good.
 

You will have to make the las plus plas turret version but thats not a bad thing, gives a more unique look and if you go that way you will feel great you made it yourself. The las option straight out the box is not bad for long distance shooting but it really comes down to how you want your HQ to run. To sit back and snipe armour? Charge in and attack? Depending how you intend to use it, and as it's your HQ, you might need to give it extra armour and/or storm bolter upgrade if you can afford it.

 

Regardless of whatever anyone else says about using it, if you like the kit and the chappy command squad then do it. Will you support the unit too, with other razorbacks, rhinos?

 

I actually played a game recently (friendly) using a Command squad in a Razorback (hvy bolters) and a few rhinos and preds with a small RW squad too. Light vehicles die pretty quick in 6th ed but my friend was confused what to shoot first! Which helped lol.

[SRSFACE]

@Aradiel: I can do the Assault Cannons easily enough as I have two twin-linked ones left over from spare Ravenwing upgrade sprues that came with a Ravenwing Battleforce I picked up this summer. I figure this would be a prime candidate for magnetization or simply buying extra backs off eBay because it's easy enough to not glue down the guns. They fit pretty snug.

 

I figure when I get the next RW Command Squad for some more black knights, I could use the spare bike front with plasma talons as the TW-Plasma Guns, as I'd rig another one of the guys to be a grenadier.

 

@cod: As I said, it'd be mostly to support my Banner of Devastation squad. They wouldn't be assaulting. Ever. They probably won't leave the tank, honestly, unless I really need the extra bolter fire if there's a horde nearby or something. The Lascannon/Plasma top seems perfect.

[march10k]

Well...A razorback is good for two things.  It can carry a couple of models, but it also has decent shooting.  That's the problem.  The shooting is less spiffy than dreadnought shooting, but, per weapon, more expensive and without AV12.  The transport capacity is less than a rhino, but with no real upside, and you have to choose between moving flat out, or inching along and shooting.  So, no, a razorback (and I have a TLLC one, more's the pity!) is not a good choice.  Choose a rhino if you must have ground transport, and then never move less than the full allowance, so that you have a chance of the transport being worth the price.  Choose a dreadnought for a light tank.  Simple as that.  The razorback is an infantry fighting vehicle, but that makes no sense for space marines.  Power armor is better than AV11, and you can't assault the turn you dismount.  Compare that to the Chimera.  AV12 on the front, and plenty of ability to hide the flanks, with flak-armored T3 troops (and S3 BS3 guns, versus the S4 BS4 of marines) inside.  IG practically begs for an IFV, marines are only hobbled by them.  Rhinos or boots.  The Razor is a dog.

[SRSFACE]

1) The shooting is less spiffy than dreadnought shooting, but, per weapon, more expensive and without AV12. 

2) The transport capacity is less than a rhino, but with no real upside, and you have to choose between moving flat out, or inching along and shooting.  

3) The razorback is an infantry fighting vehicle, but that makes no sense for space marines. 

4) Power armor is better than AV11, and you can't assault the turn you dismount. 

5) Compare that to the Chimera. -snip-

1) A dreadnought's base cost is already a plasma gun + vet sgt. upgrade more expensive than running a Razorback with a souped up gun. I can't shoot both my weapons at full BS when moving, though, so I guess I understand "less spiffy." If only slightly. If I gave the Dreadnought two shooty weapons that could deal with light armor, I'd be minimum paying 135 which is roughly double what I've got into the Razorback.

 

And the Dreadnought doesn't help keep my Banner of Devastation from being on the table and yet not immediately targetable by enemies.

 

2) Capacity IS less than a Rhino, but a command squad can't be more than 5 guys + whatever independant characters you attach to the squad. It's capacity of 6 is exactly that. It's for the command squad. Capacity size is not an issue.

 

3) A vehicle with a lascannon and 2 plasma is an infantry fighting vehicle? And here I thought Lascannons and Plasma Guns were pretty solid at attacking AV12 or less.

 

4) Comparing power armor to AV value is the wrong way to go about it. It's more comparable to toughness. AV11 with a 4+ cover save for sticking it behind ruin walls is better than T4 Sv3+, typically. The risk of catastrophic failure is there with vehicles I guess, but I suppose I'm okay with that because it's a cheap way to get some more heavy guns.

 

The way I see it, it's literally the same cost as a 5 man tactical squad with a melta bomb. I lose 5 boltguns (and I guess WS4 CCW?) and gain a twin-linked Plasma Gun and a Lascannon (And can't be locked in close combat, and Tank Shock I guess). I'd call that a net win in most games especially since I am heavy weapons light usually. I trade 5 T4 Sv3+ for 3HP AV11. Honestly it's hard to compare the two, though I suppose I'd give a slight edge to 5 T4 Sv3+ because there's less likely a chance for complete total critical failure. I give up having a unit that can hold objectives for something that A) doesn't take up force org and B ) makes the command squad carrying probably my most important piece of wargear in the Banner of Devastation harder to kill and with increased mobility around the battlefield so the scoring units I do have shoot with increased power.

 

5) Comparing things to what people in other Codices have is an exercise in futility. I'd bring Wave Serpents for my space marines if I could, but I can't, so I'll do my theorycrafting around what I can bring. And I'll spare you my personal rant against the Imperial Guard.

[Biggabertha]

I personally think you're better off investing all your models into the same unit so all Rhinos, all Razorbacks but mixing them is telling your (smart) opponent what's inside and therefore what to aim at first.

 

If you only field ONE Razorback, obviously, you have a five/six man squad inside which either means a Flamer inside or a Command Squad with an Independent Character. Fielding more than one Razorback can help with this but it does cost extra... Those points could be used elsewhere...

 

If you take say, Command Squad, four Tactical Squads and a Razorback for each Squad (Combat Squad the Tacticals) then your opponent has some hard decisions to make: especially if there are Predators around too!

[Grand Master Raziel]

I've never been a fan of Razorbacks.  Too expensive, you lose transport capacity, you lose the self-repair ability, and you lose the firing hatch on top.  I can see the point of taking a Razorback for a Command Squad, but on the other hand you could spend those points on a couple of plasma guns for the embarked squad and just have them shoot out of the hatch.  Less points than the Razorback with any of the upgraded guns, and overheats won't cost you a hull point.  Heck, if you're using an Apothecary (and why wouldn't you?), the plasma gunners will be more resilient vs overheats than the LC+TLPG Razor.  Also, your firepower won't be subject to getting shot off.

[Lucien Eilam]

I personally think you're better off investing all your models into the same unit so all Rhinos, all Razorbacks but mixing them is telling your (smart) opponent what's inside and therefore what to aim at first.

 

You can't hide which transport is which. See page 121 of the rulebook:

 

Deploying Transport Vehicles

Units can be deployed in Transport vehicles if you wish – simply declare to your opponent which unit is embarked where as part of your deployment.

[twopounder]

Razorbacks are actually a rather good unit when you take into consideration their relatively low point cost and good weapon options. Even better, DA can take a 5 man squad with heavy weapon or squad weapon, so you have some nice tactical flexibility.

 

The role of the Razorback is not to get your marines into battle, but rather to a tactical position where they can be the most effective with their firepower, then support them with an additional heavy weapon. Think of it like sacrificing 5 marines to get an extra heavy weapon in the squad. 

[Biggabertha]

You can't hide which transport is which.

Oh... I was always under the impression that your opponent isn't to know otherwise it's deadly obvious which unit to target first and which one has the biggest threat...

 

Hunh... that changes things... (Them wave serpents are going to die WITHOUT guesswork now!)

[Lucien Eilam]

Yeah, 40k is basically an open list game, unless you house rule it otherwise. No secrets, no surprises, everything WYSIWYG or explained.

 

Don't forget you can give a Razorback even to a 10 man squad. A static squad can use it as an extra heavy weapon that can also shield them from incoming fire. Or you can Combat Squad them, leave the heavy weapon and 4 bolters in the backfield while a tooled-up Sergeant and special weapon move forward aggressively. Or use it to rush the remnants of another squad over to an objective in the late-game. Or you can simply use it as an additional light tank and ignore the transport capacity. It's a useful degree of flexibility, especially in small games where compulsory Troops need to take up more of the slack.

[marvmoogy]

sorry gents, not read all the responses but here's my 2p

1) you love the new chaplain model (who's only available in that kit) and want another command squad = this bundle is full of win for you

2) razors vs rhino's doesn't matter - you get the parts to build both so just make sure you don't glue the top hatch

3) in my experience, Razors have worked very well for me against SM opponents. In 4 recent games (1500, 2000, 2500 & 3000 points) I've taken a minimum of 2 and max of 4 and in every case, they have more than made up their points...especially a heavy bolter taking out a Baal Predator ) {EDIT - I tend to use mine as light-medium tanks that happen to have a few guys in rather than transports with heavy guns]

4) head over to a well-known auction site and buy additional turrets to give you the various options for weaponry

again - sorry if I've repeated!

[skawolf]

The twin linked plasmagun + las cannon is the most popular build on Razorbacks. I use 3 in my space wolves as well as 3rhinos. I think the trick with them is target saturation. You can't just take one.

[SRSFACE]

Solid advice all around. Thanks all.

 

Now that they've got Caliban Green in a spray can, the task of getting several tanks and vehicles done doesn't seem quite as daunting. I loathe painting vehicles but it's mostly the basecoat stage.

 

I've always seemed to have the most success when I field really basic lists, so I think it'd fit my playstyle.

[Tiger9gamer]

I played with two lascannon preds for a while, and they are okay. They are not ground breaking but they can add some more anti-tank. Just have one baby sit a 5 man tac squad in the Far corner and remember to disembark them for the final turns.

 

 

If it's late in the game, you can be sneaky with them by poking them out and taking pot shots at things.

 

 

Also, generally, Try on focus on one weapon. The TL plasma gun and one lascannon seems good, but your fireing one or the other on the move. Also, sometimes you NEED that one lascannon to hit. And it doesn't.

[marvmoogy]

SRSFACE - don't forget that Army Painter Angel Green is the same colour!!!!

[Master Avoghai]

SRSFACE - don't forget that Army Painter Angel Green is the same colour!!!!

It's actually closer from the DA green we used for ages (I find the caliban green a little more desaturated)

 

Since I start my collection in 1998, I prefer keeping a colour closer from what I already have.

 

+ the army painter is 1€ cheaper...

[FerociousBeast]

I'm not wild about transports in 40k, and especially not in 6E. But the Razorback has some utility as mobile cover with a decent gun on top.

[elphilo]

Another throw in for Army Painter Angel's Green in a can.

I know you said you didn't like the price on the Land Raider, but if you really want to protect your SoD command squad it really is the best choice. There isn't much out there that can take down AV14 easily, so I say take advantage of that while that lasts

But if you really don't want to go the LR route, as was said before take more than one for target saturation.

[scrimdog]

I always run with a TLAC razor if I bother to field a command squad but I belive at that many point its always worth storming up the field to get into combat. I also like to run (if I do use one for command) another with TLLC with a combat squad for sniping, tank hunting and last turn objective holder.

 

Off topic a bit I really enjoy using either my land raider or redeamer variant and they always preform, I do run a termie librarian inside with standard ranged termies and try to cast an invun save each turn on my raider so that really helps, and who can ignore 500 points of armor and elites ploughing down the field, leaves the rest of my troops to mop up and claim objectives.

 

But the best advice I can give is just run them and see for yourself what works. Hope this helps

[plasmamarine]

If you are going with the dakka banner then you don't need any of the options except TLLC or LCPG, so it really comes down to what the rest of the army has, if you need anti-armor LC is what you need, but if you have enough heavy weapons from before then just take the plasma guns.

 

another idea is to take an aegis defense line since it can give cover to your tactical squads and command squad + it is 25 points less. 

[Master Avoghai]

 

another idea is to take an aegis defense line since it can give cover to your tactical squads and command squad + it is 25 points less

Aegis défense Line brings you no advantage : you're still sensible to massive bolter shots. RZB allows your command squad not to be sensible to mass basic weapons firepower... And also protects you from flamer/torrent weapon.

[march10k]

 

1) The shooting is less spiffy than dreadnought shooting, but, per weapon, more expensive and without AV12. 

2) The transport capacity is less than a rhino, but with no real upside, and you have to choose between moving flat out, or inching along and shooting.  

3) The razorback is an infantry fighting vehicle, but that makes no sense for space marines. 

4) Power armor is better than AV11, and you can't assault the turn you dismount. 

5) Compare that to the Chimera. -snip-

1) A dreadnought's base cost is already a plasma gun + vet sgt. upgrade more expensive than running a Razorback with a souped up gun. I can't shoot both my weapons at full BS when moving, though, so I guess I understand "less spiffy." If only slightly. If I gave the Dreadnought two shooty weapons that could deal with light armor, I'd be minimum paying 135 which is roughly double what I've got into the Razorback.  Yes, when you add in the requirement that the second weapon be and antitank weapon while ignoring the dreddy's AV12, WS value and, in basic form, S10 powerfist that strikes at I, the razor looks less useless.

 

And the Dreadnought doesn't help keep my Banner of Devastation from being on the table and yet not immediately targetable by enemies.  Sure, The enemy has to kill an AV11 vehicle on the top of turn one before killing the banner inside on the top of turn one.  That's a massive level of protection!

 

2) Capacity IS less than a Rhino, but a command squad can't be more than 5 guys + whatever independant characters you attach to the squad. It's capacity of 6 is exactly that. It's for the command squad. Capacity size is not an issue.  Again, changing the argument to make a dog's ass look good.  Capacity size is only an issue if you have a squad so small that it'll evaporate under a withering glance from a school marm. 

 

3) A vehicle with a lascannon and 2 plasma is an infantry fighting vehicle? And here I thought Lascannons and Plasma Guns were pretty solid at attacking AV12 or less.  ROFL.  First, you cherry pick one variant of the razorback to make a general statement that razorbacks are tank hunters.  Transparently deceitful.  Second, you expose your ignorance of the term IFV.  An infantry Fighting Vehicle isn't for fighting against infantry, it's for fighting by infantry.  Roughly, it's defined as an APC with a decent gun on it.

 

4) Comparing power armor to AV value is the wrong way to go about it. It's more comparable to toughness. AV11 with a 4+ cover save for sticking it behind ruin walls is better than T4 Sv3+, typically. The risk of catastrophic failure is there with vehicles I guess, but I suppose I'm okay with that because it's a cheap way to get some more heavy guns.  First of all, you're comparing a vehicle bunkered in above average cover to an infantryman in the open.  Second, your math is wrong.

 

The way I see it, it's literally the same cost as a 5 man tactical squad with a melta bomb. I lose 5 boltguns (and I guess WS4 CCW?) and gain a twin-linked Plasma Gun and a Lascannon (And can't be locked in close combat, and Tank Shock I guess). I'd call that a net win in most games especially since I am heavy weapons light usually. I trade 5 T4 Sv3+ for 3HP AV11. Honestly it's hard to compare the two, though I suppose I'd give a slight edge to 5 T4 Sv3+ because there's less likely a chance for complete total critical failure. I give up having a unit that can hold objectives for something that A) doesn't take up force org and B ) makes the command squad carrying probably my most important piece of wargear in the Banner of Devastation harder to kill and with increased mobility around the battlefield so the scoring units I do have shoot with increased power.  So while hiding in 4+ cover, your banner-mobile is also providing mobility to the command squad?  Can't have it both ways...

 

5) Comparing things to what people in other Codices have is an exercise in futility. I'd bring Wave Serpents for my space marines if I could, but I can't, so I'll do my theorycrafting around what I can bring. And I'll spare you my personal rant against the Imperial Guard. 

I'm not comparing what the IG have to what marines have.  I'm comparing what T3 models in flak armor need to what T4 models in power armor need.  I don't give a crap what the transport consists of, I'm saying that guardsmen need rolling coffins and marines don't.  And any vehicle without an assault ramp or ridiculous speed is useless as a transport, anyway. 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I recommend more calm and thought before hitting the reply button. The air is getting to heated in this thread. Argue yes, but within reasonable limits. We're all trying to get he best of our codex, so no need for some less than pleasant exchanges.