Razorbacks any good?

[Lysere]

The Razorback has only ever been good for one thing in my mind, its gun. It holds less people, can't self repair at all, and needs to move slowly if it wants to be effective with its weapon. Rhino don't care about shooting, hold ten people, and can attempt to fix minor problems. If you want to keep a squad safe you either don't put them on the table, or you put them in a Land Raider. Turns out AV 14 is kinda hard to kill now a days.

 

If the command squad was meant to be an aggressive mid field attack/support unit then I'd say yes. Small Shooty squads work great with a razorback, as does any small squad. Even large squads have advantages to bringing one. A single FoC can see a tactical squad with a heavy and special weapon, a combi weapon, and the razorbacks gun. It is not durable, and it is not something to drive head long into the enemy ranks, unless your Black Templar but even then I'd rather have an LRC.

[plasmamarine]

 

 

another idea is to take an aegis defense line since it can give cover to your tactical squads and command squad + it is 25 points less

Aegis défense Line brings you no advantage : you're still sensible to massive bolter shots. RZB allows your command squad not to be sensible to mass basic weapons firepower... And also protects you from flamer/torrent weapon.

I was thinking of using the defense line for the razorback so that it gets a cover save , adding some more protection to the command squad and having the tacticals get a cover save against AP 1-3 as well

 

also i checked the fortifications section in the rule book and the imperial bastion seems to be a viable choice (av 14)

[SRSFACE]

 

 

1) The shooting is less spiffy than dreadnought shooting, but, per weapon, more expensive and without AV12. 

2) The transport capacity is less than a rhino, but with no real upside, and you have to choose between moving flat out, or inching along and shooting.  

3) The razorback is an infantry fighting vehicle, but that makes no sense for space marines. 

4) Power armor is better than AV11, and you can't assault the turn you dismount. 

5) Compare that to the Chimera. -snip-

1) A dreadnought's base cost is already a plasma gun + vet sgt. upgrade more expensive than running a Razorback with a souped up gun. I can't shoot both my weapons at full BS when moving, though, so I guess I understand "less spiffy." If only slightly. If I gave the Dreadnought two shooty weapons that could deal with light armor, I'd be minimum paying 135 which is roughly double what I've got into the Razorback.  Yes, when you add in the requirement that the second weapon be and antitank weapon while ignoring the dreddy's AV12, WS value and, in basic form, S10 powerfist that strikes at I, the razor looks less useless.

 

And the Dreadnought doesn't help keep my Banner of Devastation from being on the table and yet not immediately targetable by enemies.  Sure, The enemy has to kill an AV11 vehicle on the top of turn one before killing the banner inside on the top of turn one.  That's a massive level of protection!

 

2) Capacity IS less than a Rhino, but a command squad can't be more than 5 guys + whatever independant characters you attach to the squad. It's capacity of 6 is exactly that. It's for the command squad. Capacity size is not an issue.  Again, changing the argument to make a dog's ass look good.  Capacity size is only an issue if you have a squad so small that it'll evaporate under a withering glance from a school marm. 

 

3) A vehicle with a lascannon and 2 plasma is an infantry fighting vehicle? And here I thought Lascannons and Plasma Guns were pretty solid at attacking AV12 or less.  ROFL.  First, you cherry pick one variant of the razorback to make a general statement that razorbacks are tank hunters.  Transparently deceitful.  Second, you expose your ignorance of the term IFV.  An infantry Fighting Vehicle isn't for fighting against infantry, it's for fighting by infantry.  Roughly, it's defined as an APC with a decent gun on it.

 

4) Comparing power armor to AV value is the wrong way to go about it. It's more comparable to toughness. AV11 with a 4+ cover save for sticking it behind ruin walls is better than T4 Sv3+, typically. The risk of catastrophic failure is there with vehicles I guess, but I suppose I'm okay with that because it's a cheap way to get some more heavy guns.  First of all, you're comparing a vehicle bunkered in above average cover to an infantryman in the open.  Second, your math is wrong.

 

The way I see it, it's literally the same cost as a 5 man tactical squad with a melta bomb. I lose 5 boltguns (and I guess WS4 CCW?) and gain a twin-linked Plasma Gun and a Lascannon (And can't be locked in close combat, and Tank Shock I guess). I'd call that a net win in most games especially since I am heavy weapons light usually. I trade 5 T4 Sv3+ for 3HP AV11. Honestly it's hard to compare the two, though I suppose I'd give a slight edge to 5 T4 Sv3+ because there's less likely a chance for complete total critical failure. I give up having a unit that can hold objectives for something that A) doesn't take up force org and B ) makes the command squad carrying probably my most important piece of wargear in the Banner of Devastation harder to kill and with increased mobility around the battlefield so the scoring units I do have shoot with increased power.  So while hiding in 4+ cover, your banner-mobile is also providing mobility to the command squad?  Can't have it both ways...

 

5) Comparing things to what people in other Codices have is an exercise in futility. I'd bring Wave Serpents for my space marines if I could, but I can't, so I'll do my theorycrafting around what I can bring. And I'll spare you my personal rant against the Imperial Guard. 

I'm not comparing what the IG have to what marines have.  I'm comparing what T3 models in flak armor need to what T4 models in power armor need.  I don't give a crap what the transport consists of, I'm saying that guardsmen need rolling coffins and marines don't.  And any vehicle without an assault ramp or ridiculous speed is useless as a transport, anyway. 

No need to get so defensive, man. We're just arguing and theory crafting here. 

 

Please go read my original post. The title of the thread might be "Razorbacks any good?" but it's more specific than that. I have stated all along the goal was to bring something cheap that'd keep my command squad alive longer than turn 1 and would keep them more mobile so I could position my Banner of Devastation around the deployment zone better.

 

1) Yes, I am going to ignore the power fists, because I'm talking equivalent role options. If I want a Dreadnought to have 2 guns it can shoot up to 24", I have to give up the power fist to replace it with a missile launcher bare minimum.

I was never ignoring that it's armor 12; it's just that it being armor 12 doesn't offer anything to my command squad. I like Dreadnoughts, and if I owned any would likely bring them under Mortis Pattern forgeworld rules if allowed by my opponent. That's besides the point, though, as the argument isn't 100% about "how do I bring more big weapons on the cheap."

 

1b) How is losing a razorback to an orbital bombardment instead of an entire squad a bad thing? I don't get it. Seems to be sufficient protection as far as I'm concerned. Also means the entire squad isn't going to get Baledrake'd to death instantly the turn said drake hits the field, etc. Also protects my guys from sniper fire. Also protects my guys from bolter fire. It means if they want to kill my command squad, they have to first bring their S6 or better weapons to bear on a Rhino instead of [insert any other vehicle here.] (Yes I know S5 can still hurt AV11, but it's rare unless there's tons of it. Wouldn't help a lick against Tau and I recognize that.)

 

2) I am not going to dignify that with a response. If you're going to respond with blind vitriol instead of actually reading what I wrote, then don't waste both our times please.

 

3)  I am not military. Someone says "infantry fighting vehicle" and I hear "a vehicle that fights infantry." My bad. Honest mistake. (Also, the majority of the variants of it have pretty big guns to bring to bear, so "cherry picking" is exactly what you do every time you create any given loadout on something with that many weapon options. Just saying.)

 

4) It's not always going to be under cover. Only really needs the cover the first two turns or so, and actually I just realized it'll benefit from the 3+ invulnerable save from the power field generator from the Librarian inside. I realize that's only a single Razorback if I end up bringing more (which from everyone else, sounds like I should. Seems like an all or nothing proposition.) But still worth mentioning.

 

Typically when I deploy, I try to turtle up with all my power armor dudes in my deployment zone behind lots of cover, and I send my bikes out to cause as much havoc as they can. Banner of Devastation with a bajillion bikes is awesome, but the problem I currently have with my force as is, my power armor command squad that hoists it can't keep up. I know I could just give my ravenwing command squad the banner instead, but I dislike using wargear that doesn't benefit the squad holding it in any circumstance and I already use the Ravenwing Banner because guaranteed Hit and Run passing is awesome, and it's fairly cheap for that.

 

It's all a moot point if I bring a second bike HQ unit and got another RW Command Squad. Then again, I'd probably run those guys with the Banner of Fortitude so I could have mobile Apothecaries. Not really relevant to the arguments here though.

 

5) You could have just said that, then, instead of comparing the vehicles. :P

[Biggabertha]

I once squared off against a Dark Angels Successor player a few weeks back that had a ridiculous loadout of four Rhinos, three Razorbacks, two Drop Pods, two Predators, a Whirlwind and a Land Raider Crusader... it was a horrible match for me seeing that everything had a very important target inside was covered by something else and was just as expendable. Nothing came out until the tanks were destroyed and also nothing was really lost due to my real lack of anti tank or essentially, anti AV 14.

 

It was a really difficult decision to make what to shoot first with my anti-tank units and cover or no cover, it wasn't easy to kill more than two vehicles in the first turn before everything was disgorged and I ate a ton of Flamer/Bolter rounds. It was an incredibly basic list too!

 

The real kicker were the Razorbacks - not only did they have half of a Tactical Squad inside armed with a Flamer but they also held the Command Squad with the Banner of Devastation which steadily built up momentum each turn as additional units reached the front lines. The Heavy Bolters took care of my Devastators and the Twin Linked Assault Cannon dealt with my Terminators.

 

 

But really, if you bring more than one Razorback, I think it'd be REALLY handy to have them - otherwise just having one makes things very easy for your opponent to choose what to hit in the first turn. Since it doesn't matter about the capacity of the vehicle, Razorback is a clear choice here - especially if you have a Storm Bolter on top to help deal with Weapon Destroyed and for a little extra punch when you use the Razorback as immobile cover at that point in the game.

[Master Avoghai]

 

4) It's not always going to be under cover. Only really needs the cover the first two turns or so, and actually I just realized it'll benefit from the 3+ invulnerable save from the power field generator from the Librarian inside. I realize that's only a single Razorback if I end up bringing more (which from everyone else, sounds like I should. Seems like an all or nothing proposition.) But still worth mentioning

 

The PFG gives a 4+ save that does NOT work if the bearer is inside (source : FAQ DA April 2013)

 

I personnaly use the RZB as small tank hunters. They cost roughly as much as a typhoon, and have the advantages of not being sensible to S4 shoots as well as not occupying a precious FA slot.

 

Bu if I choose to play RZB I choose to play at least 2 of them along with other armoured vehicles.

 

The only problem I have with command squad embarked in a RZB, is the fact that if I'm obliged to move the RZB to target something I may lose the advantage of the banner (provinding this move put the RZB over 6" from the other DA units). This is not an issue of course if the flanking bolter units are bikes units.

[[TA]Typher]

Just thoery crafting here. If you were castling up, placing a rzorback directly behind a rhino would obscure the front facing of the razorback, thus giving a 3+ cover to the razor and allowing the top mounted weapon able to fire over the rhino.

 

Of course this plan goes awry when the rhino exploses but it's just a thought.

 

Personally i never use them, but could see them improved if they had a purchasable option that gave them the assault vehicle rule. This would turn them into a cheap, fragle, assault transport. Hardly overpowered and with some risk.

[SRSFACE]

@Typher: . People simply couldn't shoot at it unless they had height advantage if you did that, no? You have to have sight of a model to shoot at it, and if there's something the exact same size in front of it, well, they don't have sight of it, do they? Haha.

[[TA]Typher]

@Typher: . People simply couldn't shoot at it unless they had height advantage if you did that, no? You have to have sight of a model to shoot at it, and if there's something the exact same size in front of it, well, they don't have sight of it, do they? Haha.

They prob couldn't shoot the front armor, as they would be facing it and the rhino was obscuring it, but might be able to see side armor, which acording to the BRB would give the 3+

[facmanpob]

Just thoery crafting here. If you were castling up, placing a rzorback directly behind a rhino would obscure the front facing of the razorback, thus giving a 3+ cover to the razor and allowing the top mounted weapon able to fire over the rhino.

I've done this with a Dreadnought and a Landspeeder Typhoon.... the missiles can still shoot over the Dread, but it becomes really difficult to see the landspeeder, so you either can't target it or it gets a cover save. Drive some bikes in front of the Dreadnought and the Dread gets a cover save too..... as do the bikes from the Jink rule

[SRSFACE]

@facmanpob: Landspeeders already get a jink save, but it's not as good as cover from being obscured by a dreadnought.

 

Might be kind of fun to run blob mech with Darkshroud support. I've been meaning to pick up the Dark Angels dreadnought off Forgeworld for some time (will probably do it in November for my birthday gift to myself) to run as a Mortis pattern to get me some anti-air and more shooty in general. I already run a lot of bikes. And I've already got a land speeder vengeance/dark shroud magnetized to run either/or as I love that goofy as hell model.

 

I just wish the LSV was better. All they really need to do is bump it up to armor 12 in the front and sides, or give it twin-linked, and lower the point cost. (AKA it's a trash unit.)

[march10k]

SRSFACE,

I'm sorry, I missed the fact that you started this thread. I'm not usually so rude to the OP. If you're only concerned with "What a razorback can do to make a command squad live .03 turns longer," then I shouldn't have been posting in here at all, since I don't play with command squads in the first place.

On your point 1b, yes, a razorback protects against an orbital bombardment, but that's hardly justification for fielding one, and a rhino does the same thing cheaper. In any situation except an orbital, including the arrival of a drake, it's child's play to pop open the transport before destroying the unit inside. AV11 just doesn't add much protection to a power-armored unit.

And on your point 5, I did You gotta read the whole quote, not just the bit you snipped, to realize that I'm talking about the protection needed by and provided to GEQs, as compared to MEQs, not the vehicles themselves.

[Tiger9gamer]

SRSFACE,

I'm sorry, I missed the fact that you started this thread. I'm not usually so rude to the OP.

So your usually rude to everyone else...?

[IanSturrock]

Vehicles are still pretty good, despite hull points. It's easier to get cover for them than it used to be, and infantry are more vulnerable than ever before. Put that command squad in a Razorback, and they might just survive several extra turns. My last command squad + banner had a Rhino survive 3 lascannon hits. Not only is that 3 lascannon hits that weren't killing the command squad, it was also several turns during which the command squad weren't shot up by my enemy's heavy bolters, assault cannons, etc., because it's just not really worth shooting anti-infantry weapons at AV11 if you have other targets (as my opponent did).

[Tiger9gamer]

Maybe put A PFG tech marine behind it for a tougher metal box?

[SRSFACE]

Maybe put A PFG tech marine behind it for a tougher metal box?

Oh, hey, I kind of like this. I thought about fielding a tech marine on a bike and making a very land speeder heavy list, and he'd fit this pretty well. Like usual, I wanna do it mostly for the conversion possibilities because it just seems like a ton of fun and imagining a dude doing full speed repairs while on the back of a space marine bike is silly. I love silly.

 

@march10k: No problem, man, water under the bridge.

 

With regards to the drake, anyone who's using a bale flamer and having it drop directly behind the heldrake is cheating. I know torrent says "from the base of the model" but that's because all weapon rules is assuming a model that has a base. For any vehicle, you change it to "within the firing arc of the weapon." Any time I've played a Chaos guy who wants to play it that way, I usually just say, "Okay then, we'll do The Most Important Rule" and then roll odds we play it one guy's way, evens the other.

 

Everyone seems to get that rule when they run Land Raider Redeemers with the Flamestorm cannons on it. I don't know why they don't with the Heldrake. But I digress.

 

Meaning that if a Heldrake vector strikes and pops it, he won't be able to reach his flamer to then nuke the guys inside. Means the rest of his army can shoot at it, but, still. And if the Heldrake manages to make it all the way into my fire base on the turn it comes in to do that, I guess I'd be okay with that because I usually have enough weapons to attempt to deal with it at that point. Having the Banner of Devastation with a bunch of boltguns directly behind a heldrake lets you ping it to death with it's schlubby 10 AV rear armor. Sadly, it's my best anti-flyer defense but, you know.

 

Dat banner. There's a reason so many people run it.

[Master Avoghai]

 

Maybe put A PFG tech marine behind it for a tougher metal box?

With regards to the drake, anyone who's using a bale flamer and having it drop directly behind the heldrake is cheating. I know torrent says "from the base of the model" but that's because all weapon rules is assuming a model that has a base. For any vehicle, you change it to "within the firing arc of the weapon." Any time I've played a Chaos guy who wants to play it that way, I usually just say, "Okay then, we'll do The Most Important Rule" and then roll odds we play it one guy's way, evens the other.

 

Everyone seems to get that rule when they run Land Raider Redeemers with the Flamestorm cannons on it. I don't know why they don't with the Heldrake. But I digress.

Digression sometimes brings food for thoughts. :P

 

Torrent doesn't say "from the bas", it says "within 12" from the weapon". Moreover, the vehicles rules do state that ranges are measured from the barrel of the weapon. That + the fact that the FAQ states that the drake has a 360 degrees arc of fire, and you,ll see its not cheating to put the flamer directly behind the drake.

However, following this process I'm more concerned with chaos player trying to get extra rear range for their baleflamer by measuring the 12" from the base rather than from the head...

[SRSFACE]

I somehow missed that 360 degree fire arc thing.

 

Man, Heldrakes are ridiculous. :\

 

I really feel like I picked the absolute worst edition to get into this game.

[Lucien Eilam]

The CSM FAQ clearly states that you measure from the base. It doesn't work like other vehicle-mounted weapons. My emphasis:

 

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged weapon? (p52)

 

A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

[Master Avoghai]

You say that because you didn't know the 4th Ed.

 

The drake's arc of fire issue is one of the rare big issues of this edition IMO (along with the Flying Monstruous Creatures and the limited drawbacks in a non battle brothers alliance).

The good thing is since it's a FAQ issue, GWhas still a possibility to fix by updating the FAQ with a 180 deg arc of fire for example.

 

But for me the 6th edition is a very good one. The base is solid and the only thing to fix is the flyer system... Which is THE new feature of this Ed hence, it's normal that trouble may appear.

 

Also I'd just want to warn that if people expect 40k to be perfectly balanced, they're wrong. You can't balance 16 armies. You can try to approach but it will never be perfect.

GW don't make rules for tournies and actually don't even want to try. They want to create new things to add fun. Sometimes it works : RWBK or DWK. Sometimes it doesn't : overpowered drake or underpowered LSV.

[elphilo]

SRSFACE,

I'm sorry, I missed the fact that you started this thread. I'm not usually so rude to the OP.

So your usually rude to everyone else...?

You must be new here

I somehow missed that 360 degree fire arc thing.

Man, Heldrakes are ridiculous. :\

I really feel like I picked the absolute worst edition to get into this game.

Eh, with the rise of Tau and all their skyfire weapons you're seeing a decline in Helldrakes. I mean they're still there and still something to be frightened of, but you have a better chance to not see one. I know over my 6 games at NOVA Open this year I didn't go up against a single one.

But onto the topic, adding that techmarine with PFG to babysit your command squad razorback will add a ton of survivability. When running the dual land raider deathwing list the PFG is a must take.

[march10k]

SRSFACE,

I'm sorry, I missed the fact that you started this thread. I'm not usually so rude to the OP.

So your usually rude to everyone else...?

Depends on the individual, but it's not exactly rare...

Maybe put A PFG tech marine behind it for a tougher metal box?

If your number one priority is to keep that command squad alive, then of course any number of points spent on that is worth considering. On the other hand, in for a penny, in for a pound. Now we're talking about a significant points premium over the lowly naked rhino. If I'm that concerned that my entire game plan goes to hell in a handbasket when my command squad dies, I do one of two things. Either I put it in a land raider in front of the techmarine for ultimate survivability and some nice shooting, or I redo my whole list not to be so dependent on the survival of that one squad.

Maybe put A PFG tech marine behind it for a tougher metal box?

Oh, hey, I kind of like this. I thought about fielding a tech marine on a bike and making a very land speeder heavy list, and he'd fit this pretty well. Like usual, I wanna do it mostly for the conversion possibilities because it just seems like a ton of fun and imagining a dude doing full speed repairs while on the back of a space marine bike is silly. I love silly.

@march10k: No problem, man, water under the bridge.

With regards to the drake, anyone who's using a bale flamer and having it drop directly behind the heldrake is cheating. I know torrent says "from the base of the model" but that's because all weapon rules is assuming a model that has a base. For any vehicle, you change it to "within the firing arc of the weapon." Any time I've played a Chaos guy who wants to play it that way, I usually just say, "Okay then, we'll do The Most Important Rule" and then roll odds we play it one guy's way, evens the other.

Everyone seems to get that rule when they run Land Raider Redeemers with the Flamestorm cannons on it. I don't know why they don't with the Heldrake. But I digress.

Meaning that if a Heldrake vector strikes and pops it, he won't be able to reach his flamer to then nuke the guys inside. Means the rest of his army can shoot at it, but, still. And if the Heldrake manages to make it all the way into my fire base on the turn it comes in to do that, I guess I'd be okay with that because I usually have enough weapons to attempt to deal with it at that point. Having the Banner of Devastation with a bunch of boltguns directly behind a heldrake lets you ping it to death with it's schlubby 10 AV rear armor. Sadly, it's my best anti-flyer defense but, you know.

Dat banner. There's a reason so many people run it.

I'd worry that the razorback isn't tall enough for the techie to hide behind it on a bike. You'd have to convert him to be shorter somehow, and that's shady. It sounds like your plan doesn't have the command squad (and razorback) moving much, and to move and shoot, it has to go so slow that a walking marine can keep up, so I'd save the points and not buy the techmarine a bike.

As for the drake...he doesn't need to vector strike (and, as others have pointed out, he can do that and still flame them...it's chaos, what do you expect?), other units in his army can easily pop one AV11 vehicle open for him.

[SRSFACE]

"If a target is partially hidden from the Firer's view by models from a third unit, it receives a 5+ cover save."

 

A biker would confer a cover save to a rhino pretty easily. You might have to play the angles a little bit but I don't think it'd be that hard, honestly.

 

But, very good point about the bike on the Techmarine. It might actually be a good idea to bring a bunch of servitors, improve that repair dice roll for when it's needed.

 

Also, and I can't believe I didn't think about this before, but the whole Bolster Defenses thing. 3+ cover save if I'm fortunate enough to get Ruins on my side of the deployment board.

[Master Avoghai]

But if you bring servitors

 

1- you raise the cost of the combo again

2- you'll have even more difficulties to hide the tech behind the RZB

3- you definitely make of your RZB an immobile vehicle.