Quick question on defiler

[sishuttleworth]

Hi all

 

This is probably a really simple question, but I can't find the answer at the moment.

 

A defiler can switch out the heavy flamer for a power scourge. However this would lead to it having three melee weapons. Does this increase it's attacks, or do you just get the weapon skill detriment for opponents?

 

Cheers

 

Si

[Agent Purple]

Normally walkers are allowed extra melee attacks for each additional weapons per page 84 of the BRB. However powerfists are specialist weapons, and, as an additional insult to chaos players, PK decided to make the power scourge not a specialist weapon just to make sure that every chaos player who went out of their way to convert a melee defiler for 5th ed would wind up with an even more (after ridiculous defiler point hike nerf) useless model. 

 

Confusingly, the Chaos FAQ somehow lets you attack with your powerfists (at +1 A for 2 fists) AND get the flail special rule tied to the powerscourge at the same time (I wish I could pick an choose melee weapon bonses on other models too..).  Essentially you are forfeiting a weapon and getting ganked for even more points for the WS negative.

 

Of course, due to the way p84 and the specialist weapon rule is worded (p84 "If a walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus Attack, so a Walker with three melee weapons would have 2 bonus Attacks>", and specialist weapon - "A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the Specalist Weapon rule."), you could try to lawyer it out to get 2 bonus attacks since you are not fighting with two weapons (you are fighting with 3, overriding the specialist weapon condition), and you are claiming the p.84 walker bonus and not the general two weapon bonus the specialist weapon rule appears to negate. Your opponent may let you get away with this out of pity for actually taking a deflier.

 

The real question is why you are bothering to take a defiler when you can now ally with yourself and get a 4th heldrake.

[Sception]

Because heldrakes tend to suffer diminishing returns after the second? Because they don't compete with slots for the defiler so what difference does it make? Because the real question is why aren't you allying with daemons and just using or converting your defiler as a far superior soul grinder?

[Dam13n]

I'd switch out the Defiler for:

 

a Vindicator or 3 Nurgle Obliterators or 5 Havoks with 4 Plasma Guns in a Rhino

or (if I had the 2nd HQ slot free) a Flying Daemon Prince of Nurgle

or (if I had an elite slot free) 5 Chosen with 5 Meltaguns in a Rhino

or (if I had a fast attack slot free, and didn't already have a Baledrake) a Heldrake with Baleflamer

or (if I had a fast attack slot free, and already had a Baledrake) a Heldrake with Hades Autocannon or 5 Nurgle Bikers with 2 Meltaguns

or (if I already had some Daemon Allies) a Soulgrinder

or...

 

In all seriousness, the only reason to take a defiler at all is if your armies fluff somehow revolves around it. 

(and you don't mind taking an overpriced points-sink for the sake of "the narrative")

 

As far as the extra attacks go - your search-fu is weak:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278232-defiler-attacks/

[Noctus Cornix]

Never had a problem with defilers before. Why the hate?

[Dam13n]

I don't hate the defiler myself.

 

I regularly used one in 5th edition and at the start of 6th edition before the new codex came out, because for 150pts I got a good all rounder, which was great in small games (less than 1500pts).  I even bought a soul grinder to use as a 4 DCCW defiler towards the end of 5th edition, because it was a scary, area denial unit that allowed me board control.

 

The model is a pain to put together and loves to fall over if not assembled correctly, but as a concept I'm fine with it.  It puts me in mind of some of the chaos walkers in the Gaunts Ghosts novels (in addition to it's existing fluff) so it's place in the Chaos army, from a fluff perspective isn't in question AFAIC.

 

The problem is that from the previous codex to the current one, the defiler has had a massive points cost hike when it was somewhat overpriced to begin with.  Also 5++ save or no, it is still an AV12 walker and therefore pretty easy to kill, whether it be multiple Autocannons/Kraks or a single melta shot.  When you are paying around the 200pt mark for a vehicle that is both/either less effective and/or more expensive than many of the alternatives I suggested above, it just isn't worth it from a competitive standpoint - because it's just too damn expensive for what it can do!

 

It is ironic, that it's one of the few choices from the previous codex that got a fairly significant overhaul, yet it's probably the one that really only needed one change - either front armour 13 (and remain 150pts) or a price drop (say to 135pts) as opposed to what it got.  At least IMHO.

 

I mean ask yourself - why (from a competitive standpoint) would you take a Defiler over any of the other Heavy Support choices?

[minigun762]

Never had a problem with defilers before. Why the hate?

 

It's really the one-two punch of a very high price tag on a unit that isn't that durable.

Even with all of the special rules, a few melta guns or lascannons have a high chance of killing you outright, ignoring your 4HP and IWND.

[Scribe]

I've had a bit of success with mine actually. If you run the rest of your list as MSU/points light as possible, you can afford to throw some away on a unit that while at least leaning towards fragile still has.

 

A battlecannon.

Fleet

A 5++

4 Attacks, 5 on the Charge

IWND

 

Yes, for near 200 points, but you are getting a unit that if not exposed, should be able to stick around at least a few turns, and its not like that Cannon will go unused in the next several months of 'OMG NEW SM CODEX' madness.

[the jeske]

if not exposed

Yeske looks at the bigg ass defiler model. Then he looks at the rules ... fleet , DWC , inv , all upgrades which work either for melee only or make melee better then shoting. The unexposed part maybe problmatic outside of city fight tables.

[Scribe]

Its not a central player in the list, thats the thing. If you have units that can take some pressure off, and have it sit around the back/mid and then you use the fleet to gap fill if needed.

 

I'm not saying its a monumental unit, theres only 1 in the CSM book that is, but its not the complete dud its made out to be either.

[zyl-]

IF we could outflank with it every time, it might be a little bit better. My #1 problem with it has always been a turn 1 drop pod combined with a melta gun. Outflank would at least give us a reliably superior position from which to both avoid heavy weapons and maybe get some kills.

[Xenith]

Confusingly, the Chaos FAQ somehow lets you attack with your powerfists (at +1 A for 2 fists) AND get the flail special rule tied to the powerscourge at the same time (I wish I could pick an choose melee weapon bonses on other models too..).  Essentially you are forfeiting a weapon and getting ganked for even more points for the WS negative.

The flail special rule is one that is conveyed by having the weapon on you. You do not have to attack with the weapon to get use from the rule it provides, much like a storm shield, or getting +1A from having a power axe along with a power sword.

 

You get the rule from having the weapon.