Emperor's Furor Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Do you think any of the traitor Primarchs had any reservations when it came to the treatment and handing over of Vulkan to Curze? I mean he seems to be wildly liked by the other Primarchs and even after the betrayal a lot of the Primarchs including Horus thought long and hard over their loyalist brothers, such as Horus wishing he had Corax rather than Alpharius and being unhappy with how it turned out for Ferrus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 They were all Brothers so I assume that there was some disdain, nothing concrete in the fluff I have read so far but on a similar note Lorgar has a wee moment when he is getting a kicking off Roboute in Betrayer "In his brothers face he finally saw real hate, and in that moment he learned a lesson that had evaded him all these decades. Guilliman had never hated him before. The Ultramarine had never undermined his efforts; never hidden his sneers while presenting false indifference; never held a secret joy over humbling Lorgar's religious efforts in Monarchia and the great Crusade beyond.... The Bearer of the Word felt a sudden, burning need to explain everything, to justify himself, to tell how this was all necessary, all of it, to enlighten humanity. - Betrayer page 356, Trade Edition Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3441719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraCaptain Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I believe their hesitation towards killing their brothers, is the realistation that they are not infinite beings. That they can die and this war might cost their life. And that when brothers starts falling, others quickly tends to follow and the stone is rolling. And partly because they are killing family, and therein a part of themselves. But at other stages, some primarchs realise they are just on two teams now. Seems like the loyalist does not hesitate as much as the traitors? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3441774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 I seem to recall Perturabo commenting about Curze's prisoner, think it was in Angel Exterminatus, didn't he wish his brother a quick death as he thought what ever Curze was doing to him was worse than death? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3441791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Something like that. I think this was more of a "Curze found him, Curze claims rights" sort of thing. Interestingly enough, if it wasn't for the fact that Vulkan was a Perpetual, he would have died a lot earlier and suffered nowhere near as much as he did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3441828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Also got me wondering whether Vulkan will ever return to his sons. I'm hoping he ends up finding Numeon either way I'd like Vulkan to get the same sort of coverage Corax got, in that he doesn't give up the fight and does take part in battles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3441852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Well, he is supposed to make an appearance in Unremembered Empire so its possible that is where he gets reunited with his Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3441857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I suppose a lot depends on their characters and the degree of their corruption. Ferrus and Fulgrim are a perfect example, since it took Fulgrim being unhinged from daemonic possession to finally come to the point of swinging the deathblow whereas Leman Russ and Magnus clearly had no affection for each other beyond the fact that they were still brothers before they went all out to kill each other. For Vulkan, Curze obviously wants him to suffer and eventually die given their previous history but that's sort of coloured by the fact Curze is friends with nobody, although it's been mentioned in previous material regarding the Primarchs that he was on at least cordial terms with Fulgrim and Mortarion. Horus and Sanguinius put an interesting spin on it all from the latter wanting him dead for betraying him whilst Horus seems almost scared of him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3441869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I think part of Curze's attitude is "You are unique. Just like everybody else." And he does view himself as the lowest of the Primarchs, which is why he is so concerned with justifying his actions by proving he is right. Because it was his choice to become who he is and he can't accept that. it has to be that what happened to him will happen to anyone else put into that situation, that there was no choice involved. And in the case of Vulkan, who is the closest thing to a pacifist there is in 40K and is almost beyond doubt the most righteous of the Primarchs, if Curze can bring him down to his level, he proves he is right. That it wasn't his[Curze] fault that he became a monster. He can use excuses from "he was born this way" to "it was his destiny" to "he was just made wrong" to anything else that basically says it isn't his fault. So I think that's what fueled Curze's reaction towards Vulkan. Curze saw Vulkan as his vindication. And actually, I just realized while Nick Kyme wrote Curze as willing to die where no one would see it. Curze knew Vulkan was going to escape, he planned on it. But if he could get Vulkan to kill him[Curze], then Vulkan would go mad with the realization and through that madness, become corrupted. And most likely, a Traitor Primarch with no Legion, similar to the Raven from Prince of Crows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3441911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I think part of Curze's attitude is "You are unique. Just like everybody else." And he does view himself as the lowest of the Primarchs, which is why he is so concerned with justifying his actions by proving he is right. Because it was his choice to become who he is and he can't accept that. it has to be that what happened to him will happen to anyone else put into that situation, that there was no choice involved. And in the case of Vulkan, who is the closest thing to a pacifist there is in 40K and is almost beyond doubt the most righteous of the Primarchs, if Curze can bring him down to his level, he proves he is right. That it wasn't his[Curze] fault that he became a monster. He can use excuses from "he was born this way" to "it was his destiny" to "he was just made wrong" to anything else that basically says it isn't his fault. So I think that's what fueled Curze's reaction towards Vulkan. Curze saw Vulkan as his vindication. And actually, I just realized while Nick Kyme wrote Curze as willing to die where no one would see it. Curze knew Vulkan was going to escape, he planned on it. But if he could get Vulkan to kill him[Curze], then Vulkan would go mad with the realization and through that madness, become corrupted. And most likely, a Traitor Primarch with no Legion, similar to the Raven from Prince of Crows. I agree with the point you're making in general Kol, as Curze trying to bring Vulkan down though I took it to be more that Curze was trying to show Vulkan that at their core (this was also his point toward all of the primarchs), regardless of their ideas, practices, beliefs etc they are exactly the same as Curze and "slaughter the pack" and especially his Night Haunter...personality? leave that to others to debate the duality of his fractured mind, was the embodiment of the primarch as pure as possible, hence his drive for vindication, which can only be achieved through his death. Added to the fact he knows about his death, choking on his blood, iirc, but not when or who, then he is driven to find it, to complete his goal, gain peace. That was one thing I wondered about though, as surely Curze would've have noticed something the first time he met Vulkan and couldn't see his death, like he relates to in Prince of Crows, ifrc, seeing Dorn dying, Magnus's trapped view...what happened, what did he see or is it that he saw hundreds of deaths, one revival after another? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3442730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 So wait, Vulkan Lives is Curze trying to pull a "one bad day" on Vulkan? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3443229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Worse. Curze made the Joker look nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3443308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Vulkan is a Perpetual. What the bloody...how..seriously? Welp. Shark has been jumped, and now I know to never buy anything Kyme has written or will write in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3444798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Probably the only way he could explain him surviving Curze. I can't think of anything good. And usually I'm great at pointing out flaws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3444803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujwa Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 what's a Perpetual? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3444859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 New addition to fluff via the Horus Heresy series that may be a re-interpretation of the older (in-universe) shamans and yet to be (again, in-universe) sensei. Short story short, people who can't die. The manner in which one becomes a Perpetual varies, as well as their means of returning from the dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3444867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 What's so over-the-top about Vulkan being a Perpetual? He's immortal, not invincible. Nor indestructible. His Legion is currently in rags. You can trap an immortal forever, for example, or kill him every day. I see nothing wrong with it, no more than Sanguinius' wings or Corax's shadowmeld. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3444926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 What's so over-the-top about Vulkan being a Perpetual? He's immortal, not invincible. Nor indestructible. His Legion is currently in rags. You can trap an immortal forever, for example, or kill him every day. I see nothing wrong with it, no more than Sanguinius' wings or Corax's shadowmeld. And that's why I couldn't point out any flaws. Although in Vulkan Lives, it looks like they are all starting to revive the same way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3445109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Although in Vulkan Lives, it looks like they are all starting to revive the same way. Do you mean the other Perpetuals? I thought there was a catch for every one of them - and I kind of like that gig. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3445134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Although in Vulkan Lives, it looks like they are all starting to revive the same way. Do you mean the other Perpetuals? I thought there was a catch for every one of them - and I kind of like that gig. The catch more or less seems to be the first revival. Some, like Vulkan, seem to do it naturally. Some, like Cyrene and, from what we know, John Grammaticus, needed external interference. In Cyrene's case, this was Erebus ripping her soul form the warp and placing it back in her body. From what we know, the Cabal gave John Grammaticus a new body. And from his point of view, it seemed like that was what kept happening. Until Vulkan LIves, when his destroyed body heals itself with no recorded interaction by the Cabal. Oll Persson's resurrection is a bit of a mystery since we haven't seen him do it. Damon Prytanis(the one from Betrayer) was able to able to resurrect from a pile of ashes. So it seems like apparently once a Perpetual, you behave like every other Perpetual. It's how you became a Perpetual that seems to differ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3445145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 What's so over-the-top about Vulkan being a Perpetual? He's immortal, not invincible. Nor indestructible. His Legion is currently in rags. You can trap an immortal forever, for example, or kill him every day. I see nothing wrong with it, no more than Sanguinius' wings or Corax's shadowmeld. No, because eventually you'll drop dead of old age and your prison will crumble into ruins, because entropy gets everything EXCEPT magical immortal Vulkan. You really can't see how "Unkillable by anything ever" is different from Sanguinus being able to fly without a jet pack? I can only imagine the thought process that went into this. "Guilliman's healing in stasis? The Lion is still alive? Well, I'll show them! MY favorite Primarch is completely unkillable!" There are 14 year old fanfiction writers who show more restraint in powering up the characters they like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3445149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Actually, Vulkan is killable. He's just able to resurrect. There is a difference. He dies. He just doesn't stay dead. And if you recall, there is a way to kill him permanently that apparently involves a fulgurite made by the Emperor's own psychic power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3445154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 If any of us, in our current state, were immortal, would we singlehandedly make a difference in the Heresy? As I said, Vulkan lost his Legion and saw his brothers and Legions die. He could go toe to toe with Horus and he'd never win, not even through tiring the Warmaster since eventually he'd be chained, tied to an asteroid, whatever. It's not gamebreaking if you're not gamebreaking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3445161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 If any of us, in our current state, were immortal, would we singlehandedly make a difference in the Heresy? As I said, Vulkan lost his Legion and saw his brothers and Legions die. He could go toe to toe with Horus and he'd never win, not even through tiring the Warmaster since eventually he'd be chained, tied to an asteroid, whatever. It's not gamebreaking if you're not gamebreaking. Just out of curiosity, what would happen if you threw a Perpetual into the sun? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3445170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Best answer I can think of is "It would work". Unless in Vulkan's case the skeleton is indestructible. Is memory failing me or do his bones actually crash on the planet? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279225-vulkan-and-the-other-primarchs/#findComment-3445179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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