NOVA Open Results

[Scribe]

Time and a place and all that malisteen. I do play in tournaments, I enjoy the model/paint aspect of the hobby, and of course play casual lists as well. I just want there to be an answer at least, even if it does depend on a specific list.

 

At this point what I imagine is the Tau/Eldar lists out there (in whatever combo you want) are able to deal with Drakes, so there hopefully will be something else, even if its a more holistic approach that encompasses Daemons as well.

 

I'd just like to see a CSM primary list that can play with the big boys even if I would personally not play it. Its like cheering for the home team. :p

[Paulochromis]

I'm confused.

People aren't forced to take armies from certain codices, are they.

I suspect that many of the tournament attendees have multiple armies.

And took the ones they thought they would win with (often with extensive playtesting).

So the lack of well-placed C:CSM armies could be down to a mix of three things:

(1) there are no good lists in the C:CSM dex

(2) the players that did take C:CSM armies were poor generals/took bad lists

(3) everyone playtested against heldrake spam and decided Tau/Eldar were the only viable counter

 

It's very well jumping on option (1) as the root cause, but don't overlook (2) and (3).

The biggest surprise to me re: Chaos was the preference for pure Daemons 'Flying Circus' over CSM/Daemon combos.

[Scribe]

I am curious to see the lists from the top finishers really.

 

I dont want to believe item 1 is true, especially once you ally in Daemons.

I doubt 2 is true.

Perhaps 3 is the main issue. Once people saw what Eldar/Tau could push, they just jumped?

[Smurfalypse]

Yeah, thats what I have been getting back to all day. Eventually I think just run CSM as the ally as a Heldrake bot, but even then, the heldrake is great but is it THAT great? Meh.

 

The answer is no, no it is not that great. It is certainly good, but nothing to write home about.

Proof is in the pudding. As I walked around to my tables and such I could see the CSM players and pretty much most of them ran multiple Heldrakes (sometimes two, sometimes three) and none of them placed in the top 50, that says something about a list that shows no balance.

 

I am feeling better this evening and will post the bat-reps tomorrow, but here is my list that I ran.

 

Sorcerer

ML3, Terminator Armor, Spell Familiar, Brand

 

Herald of Tzeentch

ML3, Exaulted (Grimoire)

 

Herald of Tzeentch

ML3

 

Herald of Khorne

Lesser (Axe of Khorne)

 

Horrors x20

Plaguebearers x10

Plaguebearers x10

Cultists x10

 

Screamers x9

Flesh Hounds x16

Heldrake x1

 

Obliterators x3

Mark of Nurgle

[HsojVvad]

Time and a place and all that malisteen. I do play in tournaments, I enjoy the model/paint aspect of the hobby, and of course play casual lists as well. I just want there to be an answer at least, even if it does depend on a specific list.

At this point what I imagine is the Tau/Eldar lists out there (in whatever combo you want) are able to deal with Drakes, so there hopefully will be something else, even if its a more holistic approach that encompasses Daemons as well.

I'd just like to see a CSM primary list that can play with the big boys even if I would personally not play it. Its like cheering for the home team.

I was going to make a post about people needing to win with plastic toy soldiers. I didn't want to be so negative. But this just reinforces what I wanted to write.

At least CSM players don't need to win with plastic toy soldiers. At least CSM play with the army they love and don't need vindication of the needing to win.

All this tell us, is that these people need to win with plastic toy soldiers. Are you telling me they love their army? You telling me they love using Tau as allies and Eldar as allies? Where were they using these allies when 6th edition started?

No, these people need to win and don't play for the love of the game. So one thing to be proud of as a CSM player, Tyranid player, Ork player, or an old 4th edition DA player is you play the army you love. While you may play to win, at least you don't need to win with plastic toy soldiers, or dolls.

So maybe it's time now to stop feeling sorry, or upset, and be proud who you are. A Chaos Space Marine. :D

[Smurfalypse]

I'm confused.

People aren't forced to take armies from certain codices, are they.

I suspect that many of the tournament attendees have multiple armies.

And took the ones they thought they would win with (often with extensive playtesting).

So the lack of well-placed C:CSM armies could be down to a mix of three things:

(1) there are no good lists in the C:CSM dex

(2) the players that did take C:CSM armies were poor generals/took bad lists

(3) everyone playtested against heldrake spam and decided Tau/Eldar were the only viable counter

 

It's very well jumping on option (1) as the root cause, but don't overlook (2) and (3).

The biggest surprise to me re: Chaos was the preference for pure Daemons 'Flying Circus' over CSM/Daemon combos.

 

Well it is hard to break this down because people go to these types of tournaments for different reasons. Some want to play 8 random games against random strangers and armies, some want to see the sights and get a few games in that they could care less about the results, some want to win and that is their primary goal.

 

With this in mind each person has a reason why they are playing what they are playing. I played what I played because I wanted to go in and not get blown out in every game (I finished in top 25) and have a good time playing against some players who are known for being very good. I despise spamming a single unit and you see that reflected in my list, that is a PERSONAL preference and I do not hold it against anyone who does spam a single unit. We all paid at least 100 bucks to play in that tourney, this doesn't include hotel stay if you were from out of town or unwilling to drive through northern va traffic at 8am on Friday when it started (my case). If you want to win you bring your best, I cannot fault someone for doing that.

 

Tau/Eldar are both VERY strong codex's, they have a few units that you can spam and win games with maybe not as much effort needed than someone who is playing say Dark Angels (who came in 7th) or Blood Angels or Necron or even Daemons (best codex in 6th IMO).

 

As an exact answer to something like this, it is probably a combination of all three. The CSM codex is certainly not on par as a solo codex as lets say Eldar or Tau or even Daemons, but it does have some strong points that help an army out (Heldrake, Oblits, Bikers and our HQs all come to mind), but people who went with a solo CSM army probably did not go there with the intention of competing for top five and more went there to have some fun and see the sights (if they did expect to take x3 heldrakes and win then probably bad generalship is to blame for those :P). 

[the jeske]

 

No, these people need to win and don't play for the love of the game. So

one thing to be proud of as a CSM player, Tyranid player, Ork player,

or an old 4th edition DA player is you play the army you love. While you

may play to win, at least you don't need to win with plastic toy

soldiers, or dolls.

But you do realise that some people may "love" the game , because they can win at it ? Do you also think , that only people that do sports un proffesionaly truly "love" it ?

 

 

 

 

(1) there are no good lists in the C:CSM dex

(2) the players that did take C:CSM armies were poor generals/took bad lists

(3) everyone playtested against heldrake spam and decided Tau/Eldar were the only viable counter

 

Only 3 is true . Look at the top lists from tournaments around the world in last half a year . What do they have in common ? low vunerability to drakes due to runing +2sv units, transports , multi wound units etc. Chaos can do an ok list or maybe even lists , but they are very vunerable , be it because of random aspect of reservs , inability to deal with different type of targets [can kill slogger meq can't deal with FMC spam or av13+spam lists etc] and it is not that gamble units are bad [look at Smurfs lists , it screams "and I will not fail my grimore rolls and my opponent will never be SW"] , chaos just has to many of them. So one side we have a rather boring codex for those who want a fluffy effective book and on the other side of the spectrum a so-so compatitive codex for those who don't care about fluff.

 

But chaos did one thing , it did remove a lot of space wolf players from tournaments . oddly enough chaos did it even when SW had options to adapt drakes , it just that most SW players seemed to either not like the way the remade army worked or jumped to other armies.

[Zhukov]

malisteen, on 02 Sept 2013 - 03:44, said:

-

All I can think is "good thing I'm not a tournament player".

Why, if I may ask?

 

It seems like some people can't understand how you can play tournaments (and play competitively there) while still loving the game. I play with a list I like at my local club and against friends or even at small tournaments. At the same time I also love truly competing now and then and thus I've Always had 1 good, competitive army as well to use that for bigger tournamenst (most smaller tournaments can hardly be called tournaments frankly, nothing competitive about them).

 

It is not being OR a tournament player OR a player who plays this game casually, some players are BOTH.

 

 

On the matter why chaos isn't up to par with the rest:

 

Everything is really expensive and mostly inefficient. Even Obliterators give you 1 special/heavy weapon for 75 points. That's not great, especially not when you can't fire the same weapon twice in a row. (Ironic how a versatile unit which is supposed to have an answer for everything, it's what you pay for, only has that answer half of the time).

Even the Heldrake, while absolutely great, is 170 points.

 

Our troops? Either cheap and don't do anything (cultists) or they require substantial investment with questionable returns. (Plague Marines)

 

Non existent Elite section? You got it!

 

If somebody would ask me to describe the problems with CSM in 1 word, then I'd use the word: Overcosted.

If somebody would ask me to describe the problems with CSM in 1 sentence, then I'd use the sentence: CSM lacks the mobility to justify its lack of firepower.

[hornywingythingy]

At least CSM players don't need to win with plastic toy soldiers. At least CSM play with the army they love and don't need vindication of the needing to win.

 

All this tell us, is that these people need to win with plastic toy soldiers. Are you telling me they love their army? You telling me they love using Tau as allies and Eldar as allies? Where were they using these allies when 6th edition started?

 

No, these people need to win and don't play for the love of the game. So one thing to be proud of as a CSM player, Tyranid player, Ork player, or an old 4th edition DA player is you play the army you love. While you may play to win, at least you don't need to win with plastic toy soldiers, or dolls.

 

So maybe it's time now to stop feeling sorry, or upset, and be proud who you are. A Chaos Space Marine. :D

Noone likes losing, unless there is something very wrong with them, even csm players, in a tournament, you are taking the most optimised list you can, tailored to your personal play style, and competing at the top of your game against other players as good or better than you. Imho, there's nothing better in wargaming than it, knowing you won because of your skill, knowing that any tiny mistake you make could end it all..... Seriously, the most fun you can have with your clothes on. I like the whole process, I have been tweaking my flying circus demons with csm allies for months, seemingly minor tweaks bringing huge differences to the threat abilities of the army.

 

I was running spawn rush prior to this, main dex csm, I did okay, but it was less reliable, and less fun to play, the demon dex doesn't feel like its fighting you, unlike csm.

 

Also, I'm a nid player as well, you think the csm dex gets bitched about, its nothing compared to the years of rage from the community about nids.

[daboarder]

Nid player here too....just hopeful the fluff gets fixed mostly. (have absolutely given up on GW EVER getting lictors to work)

[the jeske]

The only person who can understand a nid player is a 1ksons player.

[hornywingythingy]

The only person who can understand a nid player is a 1ksons player.

Quoted for truth.... Got a mate who plays thousand sons and sisters, I feel sorry for him all the time.

[hornywingythingy]

Nid player here too....just hopeful the fluff gets fixed mostly. (have absolutely given up on GW EVER getting lictors to work)

Bs1 when shooting at lictors, ws1 when attacking victors in cc, ability to manipulate reserves whilst in reserve. Done. I miss lictors, I miss them mooning gunlines and taking no damage.

[Tenebris]

Again I agree with the posts above. I stated CSM because I wanted to play my favorite legion which is the Thousand Sons but my wishes quickly turned to dust after some test games so the only Thousand Sons that see some action is my Kill Team which is rightfully feared in my area for it is a thing that the Sons do great.

 

I support wholly Zhukov where he says that our crux is the lack of mobility to justify our lack of firepower. The developers knew that the 6th is an edition that is tuned for shooting armies, the inclusion of fortifications and flyers that can bypass them is a clear indicator of that yet they did not made the CSM able to perform well, and it is seen with the Dark Angels that they somehow corrected that, giving them the awesome dakka banner and Split Fire on the Deathwing Terminators so a solid DA player can still compete in the shooting game.

 

I play mostly tournaments since they are the most common type of organized 40k games in my area and I use the many campaigns and mini tournaments to test the various lists. I have tried the full range of our unit entries since I have a vast Chaos army, ranging from horde MEQ to Chosen. I have fielded all the available HQ and even the Mutilators (50 Eur worst spent in my career as a 40k player) but every time I came out winning more due to skill than thanks to my army.

 

In the end I still think that the best option to be competitive and in fluff is a Death Guard army with Typhus so everything else is a bit scarce. With the sheer ton of artillery, mortars, thunderfire and massive amounts of firepower that are heading toward me there have been games where my entire 1850 points army was destroyed by turn three, even the hordes of Fearless marines.

 

In the end if you have a group that supports common friendly games it is all good and all but if you are like me that you have to spend tons of money on tournaments to actually get to play Warhammer you want to win, not always but just enough to somehow feel justified, to see those tons of Eur actually spent well. I have the luck that we get store bonuses for our wins so you know that winning is profitable in my case. With my Guard this netted me the money to buy almost half of my then "new" CSM.

 

In the end I lament three things most, lack of army wide rules, lack of mobility and lack of either focused firepower or focused melee.

[Zhukov]

Do I read it correctly, did CSM place 54th as best result?

 

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/NOVA-Open-2013/leaderboard

 

That's really extreme lol.

[Tenebris]

But with Necron allies. If I have seen it right, the first time we see CSM as a standalone army is the 214th place. 

[daveNYC]

My takeaway from that list is that we're better than Orks.  Go us.

 

Side note:  SoB in at 37?  Did anyone see that?

[the jeske]

Do I read it correctly, did CSM place 54th as best result?

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/NOVA-Open-2013/leaderboard

That's really extreme lol.

Carried by necrons . All in all seems to have been an awesome event from what people are saying . I always like to hear that and not the usual "yeskes WAAC crew waited for me with BBs in the mans WC after round 2".

Also all those mirror matchs .....

[Elrahir]

TBH moar food for the internet wisdom's reign, yeah won again. What an excitement! Now let's all roll WAAC armies and shut down the csm topix in B&C.

[HsojVvad]

Of course nobody likes loosing but there is a difference, not loosing and having to win with plastic toy soldiers. What do you call a player who didn't care for Tau or Eldar allies in the beginning of 6th, and now all of a sudden uses them? That to me is a person who needs to win with plastic toy soldiers. What changed for them in loving the game in the begining of 6th editon to all of a sudden love Tau and Eldar Allies now? Maybe because they can win more easily now?

 

That is what I meant that what this Nova chart shows. How alot of people NEED to win. 

[daveNYC]

That's part of it, at least that's what the large number of Tau/Eldar probably show.  The fact that the CSM roll in so low in the rankings, and even then as allies, isn't a sign of codex strength.

[the jeske]

What do you call a player who didn't care for Tau or Eldar allies in the beginning of 6th, and now all of a sudden uses them?

A human.

 

 

 

 What changed for them in loving the game in the begining of 6th editon

to all of a sudden love Tau and Eldar Allies now? Maybe because they can

win more easily now?

wining bad. losing good. yeah we are getting that.

[TheDevourer]

There also happen to be alot of people who enjoy more than one army... And when for example eldar are much better gameplay wise, aswell as offering more viable options you can bet that I´d rather start off on eldar rather than csm. And love for an army is all well and good. But it strains you. You are after all spending a small fortune on little plastic soldiers to play with. And at some point I´m sure you may even want to win with an army you put alot of effort and money into. 

 

ROI-principle. Why would I buy an army that gives me a bad return on my investment? At some point you will have to weigh the strength of the army with how much you like it fluffwise. Also most players tend to want to win. I don´t think I know anyone who wants to lose. 

 

And lets be honest there aren´t alot of csm builds that work, which makes them slightly unattractive. The fluff however is great and the only reason I still plan on enlarging my csm collection.

[Elrahir]

 

What do you call a player who didn't care for Tau or Eldar allies in the beginning of 6th, and now all of a sudden uses them?

A human.

 

 

> 

 What changed for them in loving the game in the begining of 6th editon

to all of a sudden love Tau and Eldar Allies now? Maybe because they can

win more easily now?

wining bad. losing good. yeah we are getting that.

 

 

If you do it for money, yeah go for it!

Play whatever is broken and auto-wins competition, sadly jeske there are not careers built on competitive wargaming (as far as i know, correct me if i am wrong), it's not bad to lose from time to time. Learn to accept defeat sometimes.

As for the auto-win lists, cover removal (tau) and high strength shooting (eldar), those pros did not invent the wheel, the game is broken and i can hardly see if there were any winning tactics or strategies icluded on a game that is based on chess moves and tactical thinking, odd? Yeah, it must be fixed. 

[the jeske]

See this is why I didn't use the term pro . Aside for a few people working for gaming companies , it is impossible to live out of gaming. There is no table top pro tour[wish there was would help the hobby grow]. 

 

 

 

Ate my edit. Since when is good list building/picking the sign of A not loving the game B lack of tactical thinking. Even if everyone played tau/eldar[what clearly didn't happen at nova] , they would still need to learn tactics for mirror matchs.