NOVA Open Results

[Smurfalypse]

 

^seriously? People have been practising for months for nova, between nova and adepticon, they are probably the biggest and most prestigious events in the us. I follow a lot of gamers blogs, those going to nova have been practising for ages.

 

That's another thing that makes the top tier top, they practice like mad, likely changing their list with tweaks weekly.

 

That definitely does help, and it will put you higher up in the ranking for sure, but I'm certainly not alone in my opinion.  When you write custom scenarios that favor specific units, and use a limited amount of terrain, you are obviously going to get different results than when you use normal scenarios and terrain.

 

As much as I don't prefer the book missions, they do at least attempt to balance Big Guns with Scouring, meaning that both unit type has an equal opportunity to be scoring (and nondiscriminatory between vehicles and non-vehicles).  When you write in that 1/2 the scenarios in an event allow any Denial unit to score one of the objective types, the army with the better denial units will prevail, and when that unit can also come out of Elites, that's even better.  Now in Big Guns, they've got their heavy support all helping with quarters, as well as Riptides, similar with Scouring, and in the scenarios where neither of those are scoring, they Riptide is still scoring in quarters since it is still a Denial unit.

 

The results last year were also similar if you recall, Daemons did incredibly well, and table quarters were scored nearly the same way.

 

TLDR: The army that can best take advantage of the custom scenarios and limited terrain obviously is going to do quite well compared to those which are more reliant on the games prescribed amount of terrain and scenario rules.

 

Yeah, the MCs did help with the various quarters and such that is for sure. I ran zero MCs and played against more than I would have liked and the ONLY list to really pound me had zero MCs as well, so I am not sure how much stock I put into them having an advantage. Remember some missions were "Cumulative" and some missions were "Tiered", in the Tiered missions all you had to do was win the primary and that is all that mattered, the secondary did not matter.

 

A buddy of mine and myself had been practicing for NOVA Open for about 3 months probably. We played NOVA missions, we tweeked our lists as we saw other armies and new codexs came out and we adjusted strategies vs armies that we knew we would be seeing. All in all I went with a very non-standard army list (especially for Daemons), but I had enough practice vs Tau, Eldar & Flying Circus lists to understand what I needed to accomplish to beat those lists. The practice really did pay off to be honest.

 

Of my all my games and all of my friends games (went with 6 people), only one said an opponent actually wanted to do mysterious objectives (it was an Ork player). In all of my games none of the people even mentioned it and I never even thought about rolling when I got near an objective, even though it probably would have been in my favor in most cases.

[zyl-]

Big picture: GW is selling eldar and tau models like mad right now, and that's what they want.

 

Also, someone (I think the Jeske) mentioned that all the high level tournament lists are not vulnerable to drakes. I would argue that is not at all the case. They are not vulnerable to cron air. The fact that our only "good" unit got hit by that necessity is purely bad luck on our part, but I'd highly wager that we are not the reason for that.

 

Chaos is the codex that seems to have 1 point where it truely accels. AP3 ignores cover. Vector strikes, bale flamers, blast masters, and burning brand are all just excellent weapons for clearing MeQ units. IF (very big if) MeQ spam ends up being the king due to the SM codex release up and coming, then we will be the 1 thing stopping them from ruling the world. And we know they are VERY likely to be the flavor of the month. Yes other lists can beat MeQ spam, but I've yet to see anything as methodical and reliable as chaos is at this. I'm not even going to mention how VotLW would ice the cake for these people. It doesn't matter if we even take it, the marines have to imagine we will, and get mad because of it. All just a dream, I know, but it could happen that marines wipe the troublesome xenos just to find us irritating and frustrating to play against.

[minionboy]

Yeah, the MCs did help with the various quarters and such that is for sure. I ran zero MCs and played against more than I would have liked and the ONLY list to really pound me had zero MCs as well, so I am not sure how much stock I put into them having an advantage. Remember some missions were "Cumulative" and some missions were "Tiered", in the Tiered missions all you had to do was win the primary and that is all that mattered, the secondary did not matter.

 

A buddy of mine and myself had been practicing for NOVA Open for about 3 months probably. We played NOVA missions, we tweeked our lists as we saw other armies and new codexs came out and we adjusted strategies vs armies that we knew we would be seeing. All in all I went with a very non-standard army list (especially for Daemons), but I had enough practice vs Tau, Eldar & Flying Circus lists to understand what I needed to accomplish to beat those lists. The practice really did pay off to be honest.

 

Of my all my games and all of my friends games (went with 6 people), only one said an opponent actually wanted to do mysterious objectives (it was an Ork player). In all of my games none of the people even mentioned it and I never even thought about rolling when I got near an objective, even though it probably would have been in my favor in most cases.

 

I'm glad that they didn't affect your game, but overall you also do see how they help.  My point wasn't take X list and you will win, rather, take X list, practice a lot and you will win.  If you're trying to win, you're going to take advantage of everything you can to gain an advantage, one of those being Riptides.  It would be like going to a tournament knowing that 1/2 the matches will be Big Guns, it's quite unlikely that you'll not take 3 heavy support, though taking 3 heavy support wont guarantee you a win.

 

Also, all 4 missions that used Table Quarters were Teired, so there were opportunities to win outside of Table Quarters.  That said, having the tie breaker in your pocket does definitely help you win when you need it.  Fighting for a tie, then winning on quarters is definitely a viable strategy.

 

Basically, any advantage is still an advantage.

[Smurfalypse]

A MC is still different from a vehicle, every codex does have Heavy or Fast Support choices that ARE NOT vehicles and would also deny as well. I would rather have a 240pt unit contesting a quarter than a Wraithknight or Riptide.

 

Also, practicing makes you a better player so really the better players (the ones who actually practiced) did better than the ones who did not. Not sure what the top 3 folks ran but I played against #4, #19, #22, #32 and of those four only two of those players had any MCs. 

I tabled two, lost the other by a single VP and got tabled by one (the Eldar with zero MCs) so my opinion is that it was not an advantage in general. No more than a Daemon player has.

[minionboy]

A MC is still different from a vehicle, every codex does have Heavy or Fast Support choices that ARE NOT vehicles and would also deny as well. I would rather have a 240pt unit contesting a quarter than a Wraithknight or Riptide.

 

Also, practicing makes you a better player so really the better players (the ones who actually practiced) did better than the ones who did not. Not sure what the top 3 folks ran but I played against #4, #19, #22, #32 and of those four only two of those players had any MCs. 

I tabled two, lost the other by a single VP and got tabled by one (the Eldar with zero MCs) so my opinion is that it was not an advantage in general. No more than a Daemon player has.

 

Well, the guy that won was 4 Riptide Tau, the guy that got 2nd was monster spam Chaos Daemons... Really it comes down to having good elite units that are impactful on the game.  Riptides being scoring for table quarters is much better than a vehicle being scoring in big guns, mostly because the tau player also still has plenty of FA/HS to be scoring in those missions as well.  Generally Elites are fairly frowned upon because they are generally not worth it since they do not score, but with these missions, there is no reason to not load up on Elite MC's if you have good ones (oh, only Tau/Crons have those, and only Tau have viable ones).

 

I'm not saying player skill wasn't involved, clearly it was, you don't win out of 220 people without being good, but that said, I still feel that the scenarios combined with the scenery did help to skew the results.  If the scenarios were written in such a way that CSM had some sort of advantage, you can be sure that more people would have shown up with them, it's the nature of competition.  There were a ton of Tau armies, not because Tau = win all your games with no skill, but instead Tau = most advantages in the tournament format (plus shiny model syndrome).

[daveNYC]

Have to ask, but what exactly would the rules have to be for CSM to have some sort of advantage?

 

Daemons came in second?  A wha?

[hornywingythingy]

^ all non csm models count as ws and bs1, and can't shoot over 6"? ;)

 

I jest, but not by much, not much short of fantasy style comp could help methinks.

[daboarder]

Something like the following would go a long way to helping.

 

 

Deathguard: All units must buy MoN.

 

Gain: FNP, -1I

 

World eaters: All units must buy MoK

Gain: +1WS, Furious Charge

 

Emperors children: All units must buy MoS

 

non-vehicle Models able to purchase a heavy weapon may buy a
blastmaster (30pts)

non-vehicle Models may replace their boltgun, combi-bolter

with sonic blaster (3pts)

All characters may buy Doom Siren (15pts)

 

Thousand Sons: All models must buy MoT

 

Champions must become sorcerers for +35 pts

Units get Aura of Dark glory

All Bolt pistols, Boltguns, combi-bolters get inferno rounds (AP3)

All units have slow and purposeful

non-character, non-vehicle models may not buy special or

heavy weapons,

 

 

Then throw in rules for things like night lord, alpha
legion, IW's and Word bearers, closest thing to what we want without a complete
re-write.

 

edit: this is of course pure speculation and I fully expect us to get nothing this awesome as the supplements drop (if the supplements drop)

[zyl-]

Tournament rules that might allow chaos to do better. Can yall really not think of any?

 

rule 1: no elites (unless fielded as troops allowable by codex)

rule 2: all FA score

rule 3: extra FA slot

all maps have lots of cover

 

Chaos could thrive in a setting like this, and these are the kinds of rules that happen in some places.

[RolandTHTG]

all maps have lots of cover

 

Honestly, this should be the case anyways...

[Tenebris]

Well lets be truthful, the CSM did not perform well, rules or no at this level of competitive game the true weakness and bad design of our book is made manifest. The CSM that managed to somehow climb the board were allied with Necrons or Daemons which speaks volumes of our liability as a standalone army and the rules you have presented would not benefit the CSM so much as would other armies, for example the Necrons or Daemons who have way better FA units than we do. 

 

In the end a year from our rebirth Chaos Space Marines struggle and struggle bad. From a reasonably solid list that netted some results in the 5th we have come full circle with the quasi similar list but that fails to get results. So is this than truly the player's fault or we have some inherent weakness that makes our CSM armies subpar in so many field that we need to integrate with allies?

 

So let's be truthful, the CSM did perform bad, got their arse kicked bad and what is left for us is to snap our mutated jaws and howl to the Dark Gods until some solid FAQ or supplements come to rescue us. Until than it is Nurgle time sadly. 

 

It is indeed very sad how even our MAIN supplements will force us to take Daemons allies to cover our numerous flaws. And by than keep in mind this, Raven Guard assault in first turn allied with tons of White Scars Graviton Bikers... and you think that the Tau are bad?

[Smurfalypse]

Well lets be truthful, the CSM did not perform well, rules or no at this level of competitive game the true weakness and bad design of our book is made manifest. The CSM that managed to somehow climb the board were allied with Necrons or Daemons which speaks volumes of our liability as a standalone army and the rules you have presented would not benefit the CSM so much as would other armies, for example the Necrons or Daemons who have way better FA units than we do. 

 

In the end a year from our rebirth Chaos Space Marines struggle and struggle bad. From a reasonably solid list that netted some results in the 5th we have come full circle with the quasi similar list but that fails to get results. So is this than truly the player's fault or we have some inherent weakness that makes our CSM armies subpar in so many field that we need to integrate with allies?

 

So let's be truthful, the CSM did perform bad, got their arse kicked bad and what is left for us is to snap our mutated jaws and howl to the Dark Gods until some solid FAQ or supplements come to rescue us. Until than it is Nurgle time sadly. 

 

It is indeed very sad how even our MAIN supplements will force us to take Daemons allies to cover our numerous flaws. And by than keep in mind this, Raven Guard assault in first turn allied with tons of White Scars Graviton Bikers... and you think that the Tau are bad?

 

Not sure how you get Raven Guard assaulting turn one, but I truly hope the SM codex breaks up the current meta for competitive play. It is really sad not to see any MEQ armies running around on the upper tables.

[daveNYC]

Might do a little something something.  If nothing else, it might get drop pods landing Salamanders to melta Wave Serpents in the butt.  Same goes for the markerlight drones hiding behind the shrubs.

 

Downside for us is that castling up and waiting for the drake to show up becomes that much harder.

 

There are tournies that nix Elites?  That'd put a crimp in an Eldar player for sure, but all that'd do is mean it'd be all Farsight, all the time.

[hornywingythingy]

 

 

Well lets be truthful, the CSM did not perform well, rules or no at this level of competitive game the true weakness and bad design of our book is made manifest. The CSM that managed to somehow climb the board were allied with Necrons or Daemons which speaks volumes of our liability as a standalone army and the rules you have presented would not benefit the CSM so much as would other armies, for example the Necrons or Daemons who have way better FA units than we do.

 

In the end a year from our rebirth Chaos Space Marines struggle and struggle bad. From a reasonably solid list that netted some results in the 5th we have come full circle with the quasi similar list but that fails to get results. So is this than truly the player's fault or we have some inherent weakness that makes our CSM armies subpar in so many field that we need to integrate with allies?

 

So let's be truthful, the CSM did perform bad, got their arse kicked bad and what is left for us is to snap our mutated jaws and howl to the Dark Gods until some solid FAQ or supplements come to rescue us. Until than it is Nurgle time sadly.

 

It is indeed very sad how even our MAIN supplements will force us to take Daemons allies to cover our numerous flaws. And by than keep in mind this, Raven Guard assault in first turn allied with tons of White Scars Graviton Bikers... and you think that the Tau are bad?

Not sure how you get Raven Guard assaulting turn one, but I truly hope the SM codex breaks up the current meta for competitive play. It is really sad not to see any MEQ armies running around on the upper tables.

They all get scout, stealth first turn and can use jump packs both in movement and assault, that's a pretty likely turn one assault if you are going 2nd. Plus strike can infiltrate a unit, that I think could then scout.....

[Tenebris]

Indeed and if the player does not want to assault he would more likely than not get an awesome cover save due to Night Fighting or the option to maneuver his tactical squads in a better position to deal damage. 

 

I think that while DW alpha strike is nasty, the SM would do it better since their rules enforce that. Even if we do not take in account the various special characters and their awesome traits we still speak of a basic tactical squad that comes via Drop Pod and has reroll to hit with for that turn. A solid turn of this and you are looking at many CSM dead even before the battle had a chance to develop. 

 

Sure we can charge them but this means nothing else than now more than even our board side would have to be guarded by Spawn, Bikers and Mutilators. And there is little guarantee that those units will be able to cripple a said tactical squad in that turn. 

 

So it is either you load on Noise Marines or you load on Plague Marines, the first to kill and the other to survive long enough when fighting the new marines. Yet one thing is certain, we speak of an army that will be ever more present in the following months.

[Tzen]

Any chance the rest of your games will become battle reports? :)

 

Interesting reading! :)

[Smurfalypse]

Any chance the rest of your games will become battle reports?

Interesting reading!

Sorry, there seemed little interest in them so I sorta stopped doing them :P

Then this thread turned into a hot mess as well and figured people were too bitter to really care. . .

I will put my third game up tonight, though I seem to have lost his army list (I still have the others however).

[Tzen]

It may be because people read this thread and vent their feelings out here!

I tend not to say anything, I feel everything that's **** about our codex is pretty apparent. I expect in two years time will get a new codex when all the others including sisters have been done.

[Elrahir]

The C:CSM did not did well because the internet trend does not revolve around it. Seriously now, C:CSM is fine and competitive enough (yeah even for a stand alone army), one tournament does not set the bar. It might be the players that did not use the codex to its full potential, or not many run it as csm is not the most popular army. What's good about it, is that it has not shown yet a fixed build and that's it, it's chaotic with good and bad units, good and bad rules, it has yet to surprise us. 

In a good or a bad way. After all, it is CHAOS we are talking about.

[zyl-]

The C:CSM did not did well because the internet trend does not revolve around it. Seriously now, C:CSM is fine and competitive enough (yeah even for a stand alone army), one tournament does not set the bar. It might be the players that did not use the codex to its full potential, or not many run it as csm is not the most popular army. What's good about it, is that it has not shown yet a fixed build and that's it, it's chaotic with good and bad units, good and bad rules, it has yet to surprise us. 

In a good or a bad way. After all, it is CHAOS we are talking about.

Do you have a spare pair of rose-colored glasses I can borrow?

[Elrahir]

Yep. Here take one, i have always two in mah pocket. Just in case!

[Smurfalypse]

The C:CSM did not did well because the internet trend does not revolve around it. Seriously now, C:CSM is fine and competitive enough (yeah even for a stand alone army), one tournament does not set the bar. It might be the players that did not use the codex to its full potential, or not many run it as csm is not the most popular army. What's good about it, is that it has not shown yet a fixed build and that's it, it's chaotic with good and bad units, good and bad rules, it has yet to surprise us. 

In a good or a bad way. After all, it is CHAOS we are talking about.

 

It isn't just one tournament, it is all tournaments right now. I am not sure what you mean by internet trend but really "trends" have nothing to do with this. The CSM Codex cannot stand up to Tau, Eldar or Daemons or any combination of the three, facts are fact. 

I could really handle not being a "strong" codex, however they made it an infuriatingly boring codex which really grinds my gears.

 

But I digress. Internet popularity has zero to do with tourny results that have 200+ people in it.

[Elrahir]

Don't get me wrong, the new dex has not offered us anything other than restrictions and faux FOC shenanigans taht 5th didn't even mind giving (and the drake of course), are you sure though that it has been used to it's full potential? Anyway it might be just me saying a lot of BS. 

[TheDevourer]

Erm yes, it has been used to it´s full potential, it doesn´t take this long for a tournie gamer to suddenly say.

"Oh jesus, you know those bland csm dudes. Yeah they are totally awesome."

 

Power wise csm are ok.

 

Just ask Tenebris, he must have played nearly every combination possible in the csm book by now. Without any amazing results.

 

I´ve also tried a lot of things and am now sticking to typhus + zombies + drakes + oblis. And that´s only because I like zombies and already have a ton of them painted up. Not because this list is going to get me high placed in tournies or because the list is amazingly innovative and fun. In fact I´m not entirely sure I could click together a fun chaos list.

 

Not trying to sound too negative, but this discussion has been going on ever since the dex came out. 

[zyl-]

Well "fun" is not worthy of a discussion because everyone has a different idea on that with the eventual end of "who are you to tell me what to do?!!?"

 

pass

 

Power level is the problem, and I can tell you in as much as 1 example how bad that power level undercut is. Smurf's battle reports have him using flesh hounds as his main push. He can make them 2++ and assault at the bottom of turn 1. What do we have that can even begin to compare to that in any way?  A juggerlord is good, but not that good. Not even a juggerlord with invisibility in a spawn rush wave (which probably costs twice as much) is -that- good. It's not that fast, and the cover saves disappear once in mele. If your reply is that we can shoot better, then I'd like to know what can shoot fast enough to table 4 squads of fire warriors turn 1. Even better, what can shoot enough to take out that very hound squad coming at us? Tie them up with a hellbrute becasue they can't glance av12?