If Horus could have chosen the legions that sided with him..

[Lonewolf86]

I was thinking if Horus could have chosen eight legions and their primarchs to side with him against the Emperor and the remaining nine, who do you think he would have chosen? He might look to the larger legions or would he only want legions with Primarchs who would not be at any risk of overshadowing him? i know there are thoughts he would have felt threatened by Sanguinius. For example the Ultramarines would have been a most powerful ally but would Horus want to work with Guiliman? Would he want the Iron Warriors or the Fists or both? Thoughts?

[aquamarine]

I always supposed he got the Legions he wanted, or rather could get i.e. those most potentially corruptible due to their nature or at least their primarch's character (with the Thousand Sons being a bonus as they were forced to side with him simply for their own survival). If all the legions could have been swayed / corrupted, then why not play the long game and try and get all (or at least a majority) on your side by whatever methods most suitable before heading towards Terra, with no-one to stop him? Because he probably knew primarchs like Dorn, the Khan, Sanguinius, Guilliman and especially Russ would never turn, and even if some of them did they might vie with him in terms of charisma (something absent in pretty much all of the traitor primarchs?)

 

Thus he plans right from the outset to:

- isolate the Ultras on the far side of the galaxy

- trap the Blood Angels

- pit the 1K sons against the Wolves

- ambush and destroy three legions at Istvaan

- and the Imp Fists are already digging on on Terra; they are too far away and will have to be fought anyway.

 

...so I don't think he ever seriously considered getting any of those on board

 

Only exception I can think of is that Fulgrim has the job of swaying Ferrus Manus and makes a hash of it. So it's safe to say Horus did want the Iron Hands to join him and thought there was a chance of them doing so. I don't know about the White Scars.

 

Just some thoughts (I am only up to book 19 in the Heresy so I could be very wrong!!)

[skawolf]

I'm pretty sure he would have been happy to have sanguinius at his side.

[jeremy1391]

I thought the purpose of Signus Prime was to get the blood angels to turn to Khorne or to destroy them...

[Lonewolf86]

Would he really have wanted the uncontrollable WEs and Angron if he could have had the Wolves or BAs. Doesn't Horus muse at some point he'd have preferred having the Raven Guard and Corax over the Alpha Legion? He did seem keen to get Ferrus and his legion onside but we don't really know much about how powerful that legion is in terms of size. Hopefully Massacre sheds some light on that.

[GhostMalone]

It wasn't a matter of who he wanted. He needed people that would trust in and only follow him.

 

The WE are the perfect shock troops, the death guard are pretty much the best for endurance the EC pre slanesshi corruption had martial prowess making the ultras look like crap, iron warriors were anti fists, alphas are opposing to corax, word bearers had numbers and fanatical zeal, night lords more shock assualt troops, thousand sons sorcerous appeal.

 

It's a good cohesion of strengths and weaknesses that match the loyalists.

 

Horus only counted on the khan joining due to their closeness, ferrus wasn't a consideration till fulgrim went all derp on him being his homeboy, Magnus was a bonus originally that prospero was to weaken both legions & sang was a threat to Horus and he knew that his brother would never leave his fathers side due to the fear of his mutations and sons dark flaws.

[Conn Eremon]

He didn't want either Russ or Sanguinius. Or, he knew he couldn't have them. Signus Prime was meant to turn the Blood Angels, but Horus knew it was a useless endeavor.

 

Same for Guilliman and the Lion. Both were dealt with by distancing and distracting them.

 

In fact, the only extra Legions he might have wanted were the ones he allowed to be near enough to strike at Isstvan V. Namely, the Iron Hands, who Fulgrim was meant to have swayed, the Salamanders (perhaps Kurze was given orders he didn't choose to follow? Like "Break him and bring him to me"), and the Raven Guard. Someone said here that Horus states he would rather have had Corax than Alpharius, but I don't know the source of that.

[GhostMalone]

I think it's the warmaster audio short story.

 

I believe he would never have gotten corax or vulkan.

 

Corax was afraid of how close he was to becoming the night haunter. Vulkan believed in the great crusade he was one of the staunch few not to go to extremis

[Conn Eremon]

And Ferrus Manus would rather die than betray. Yet, Fulgrim was expected to get him over. Maybe he expected Kurze to do the same with Vulkan, and was hoping he could with Corax, if he had been caught. Might never actually happen, but that doesn't mean Horus wasn't trying.

[GhostMalone]

Hmmm I think horus choose accordingly, he went for those with anger resentment and so on. In reality he had no way to prove that the emperor was damning mankind, if he did he may have swayed a couple of others

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah Horus definitely would of preferred to have the Raven Guard over the Alpha Legion, he states as much during the Warmaster Audio short, something a long the lines of Corax would do as he was told and get the job done and wouldn't have a hundred other motives behind doing it. He wanted Khan to come "You call, I come" or something like that is the promise passed between them in Brotherhood of the Storm.

 

Dorn would be completely out of the question, at least it comes across that way to me, seeing as how he's one of the respected "elder" Primarchs and kind of a boy scout when it comes to following the Emperor's orders, more so than Guilliman it now seems.

 

I'm not sure, will have to listen to it again but I think Horus went further than saying he just wanted the Raven Guard, I think he wanted the forces the Emperor had, since everyone he has below him seems to be incompetent or unable to follow a simple order.

[Conn Eremon]

I had completely forgotten about the Khan.

[High MarshalGR]

It wasn't a matter of who he wanted. He needed people that would trust in and only follow him.

 

The WE are the perfect shock troops, the death guard are pretty much the best for endurance the EC pre slanesshi corruption had martial prowess making the ultras look like crap, iron warriors were anti fists, alphas are opposing to corax, word bearers had numbers and fanatical zeal, night lords more shock assualt troops, thousand sons sorcerous appeal.

 

It's a good cohesion of strengths and weaknesses that match the loyalists.

 

Horus only counted on the khan joining due to their closeness, ferrus wasn't a consideration till fulgrim went all derp on him being his homeboy, Magnus was a bonus originally that prospero was to weaken both legions & sang was a threat to Horus and he knew that his brother would never leave his fathers side due to the fear of his mutations and sons dark flaws.

 

All in all, I think Horus took what he could. What I mean is, there were Legions who had honor. What is honor? To remain true to an oath you give willingly at the very least. Examples are among the Loyalists to see (Guilliman, Sanguinius, Khan, Russ, Dorn all were honorable individuals) so he took what was open to Chaos which was his decision to follow. Corax had a sense of order within him unlike the unstable Alpha Legion. Sanguinius represented "the soul of the Emperor" (Horus says so at the least). Vulkan believes in the ideal, the soul of the Imperium as Guilliman does, who is also too ordered to withstand the effect Chaos brings on its followers (it's Chaos after all). Loyalty is really important for the Lion (at least the latest fluff supports his fierce loyalty). Russ is a far seeing Primarch whose belief system is in contrast to what Chaos promotes as the other Loyalist views go etc.

 

I think it comes down to this: Horus took what he could, and made a balanced force himself. If I think as a general, he probably wanted to get every legion to join his heresy, but humans (and Primarchs) are different to one another and there are some who have different values to his own.

[calgar101]

Horus (Erebus too) expected Signus Prime to work, it was Lorgar who knew it was folly.

 

Horus took the legions he knew he could turn, with some surprises cropping up. Howeer if he could pick the 8 legions to side with him I think these would have been his choices.

 

Ultramarines

Raven Guard

Imperial Fists

World Eaters

Iron Warriors

Death Guard

Word Bearers

Blood Angels

[GhostMalone]

see this is where it gets tricky for me, I think that horus chose well he got Fulgrim, Alpharius/omeagon, and Perturabo who in all honesty should have stayed loyal. 

Mortarion was swayed due to his father on barbarous being a tyrant, Lorgar was pretty much duped due to him needing to believe in something, Magnus was more loyal then most but got the arse end of the stick (in scars episode 3 we see that it was a big F&*% up on Russ's part), Kurze wanted vindication for the sanctions that were trying to be forced upon him, Angron was resentfull and just wanted to in all honesty be left to die.

 

the Khan was expected due to his loyalty to horus as a brother, not as any oath or honour but the fact that he respected horus.

 

Ferrus would never turn, not because of duty or honour or anything like that, simply because he was human he had built the imperium and that was what made him happy uniting mankind.

Sanguinus was feared by horus due to his charisma and the fact that everyone looked upon him as a diety.

 

 

 

 

but anyway if horus could have turned guilliman I think he would have, plus lorgar wanted to seek out revenge so the XIIIth would never have been attempted to be converted.

[Ezeriel]

In Warmaster, Horus comments how he wishes he had Guilliman with him, and that Corax wouldn't have made the mistakes that Alpharius has made.  He also says that he leads the flawed and damaged, a master of broken monsters.

 

Sounds like he took what he could get and made the most of it.

[Kais Klip]

In Warmaster, Horus comments how he wishes he had Guilliman with him, and that Corax wouldn't have made the mistakes that Alpharius has made.  He also says that he leads the flawed and damaged, a master of broken monsters.

 

Sounds like he took what he could get and made the most of it.

 

*pen-click* What mistakes of Alpharius' were those? 

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

If I could cherry pick 8 Legions to take into the Heresy with me they be as follows:

 

Word Bearers - zealots who will convert everyone and spread mass propaganda

Ultramarines - largest Legion, brings 500 worlds, best logistics commander and empire builder

Dark Angels - One of the best commanders in the Imperium, larger Legion

Iron Warriors - someone has to tear down the walls

World Eaters - shock troops

Death Guard - again, more shock troops and very loyal to Motarion

Raven Guard - the most disciplined covert operation troops and the best at taking things out

Blood Angels - again, propaganda of the Angel himself supporting my bid at power.

 

This would leave the Emperor with: Alpha Legion, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Imperial Fists, Night Lords, Emperor's Children, Iron Hands, Salamanders and White Scars. And out of all those the only ones the loyalists would want are: SW, TS, IF, IH, Sallies, EC and WS. The Alpha's and NL's are too unpredictable and bad from a public relations POV. And in the ones you want, the SW and TS hate each other. More importantly, these are the smaller Legions all told and lacking the greatest commanders and propagandists. 

 

As the heresy unfolded, out of the three best propagandists, two remained loyal (Roboute and Sang) while Lorgar turned traitor. (Horus I don't count...he was charismatic but not brilliant at propaganda)

[Wade Garrett]

I think an argument could be made for turning Ferrous, at least given how he is portrayed in "Feat of Iron", where he muses that on Medusa he was a legend, but as a Primarch he is in the shadow of his more accomplished brothers like Dorn and Guilliman, and that's simply unacceptable.

 

Of course Fulgrim made a complete dog's breakfast of the whole affair, but that's what happens when you delegate important jobs to someone in the throes of having their higher thought processes burned out by Slaanesh.

[Demus Ragnok]

I think an argument could be made for turning Ferrous, at least given how he is portrayed in "Feat of Iron", where he muses that on Medusa he was a legend, but as a Primarch he is in the shadow of his more accomplished brothers like Dorn and Guilliman, and that's simply unacceptable.

 

Of course Fulgrim made a complete dog's breakfast of the whole affair, but that's what happens when you delegate important jobs to someone in the throes of having their higher thought processes burned out by Slaanesh.

Yeah walking up to Ferrus and saying "hey brother join our let's kill dad party" wasn't the brightest idea. I think subtle planning could have put Ferrus in a spot where he felt he had no choice but to follow Horus, but it wouldn't have been easy.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

In Warmaster, Horus comments how he wishes he had Guilliman with him, and that Corax wouldn't have made the mistakes that Alpharius has made.  He also says that he leads the flawed and damaged, a master of broken monsters.

 

Sounds like he took what he could get and made the most of it.

 

*pen-click* What mistakes of Alpharius' were those? 

Probably never actually fighting any battles. The war record of the Alpha Legion was actually just a very complicated lie built off of a series of fabricated battle reports and compromised communication lines back to Terra. Even Alpharius isn't quite sure what's going on anymore, and think he's Omegon impersonating another Alpha Legion Marine impersonating one of the Raven Guard who has infiltrated the Alpha Legion but working as a double agent.

[Wade Garrett]

Fulgrim (the novel) was just one big pile of wasted potential.

 

Compare the Fulgrim/Ferrous scene with a similar one between Curze and the Lion in Savage Weapons, where the Haunter tells his brother that even if the Imperials win the Heresy he will be remembered as the coward who sat on the fence and only chose sides once the bloodshed was over (which has happened in discussions on this very forum WHOA META!) and Lion contemplates this...then stabs his brother in the chest because "Loyalty is its own reward."

 

I'm a Chaos guy, and even i had to admit that was awesome.

 

The Phoenician and the Gorgon, though...ugh.

[Stonerhino]

If I could cherry pick 8 Legions to take into the Heresy with me they be as follows:

 

Word Bearers - zealots who will convert everyone and spread mass propaganda

Ultramarines - largest Legion, brings 500 worlds, best logistics commander and empire builder

Dark Angels - One of the best commanders in the Imperium, larger Legion

Iron Warriors - someone has to tear down the walls

World Eaters - shock troops

Death Guard - again, more shock troops and very loyal to Motarion

Raven Guard - the most disciplined covert operation troops and the best at taking things out

Blood Angels - again, propaganda of the Angel himself supporting my bid at power.

 

This would leave the Emperor with: Alpha Legion, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Imperial Fists, Night Lords, Emperor's Children, Iron Hands, Salamanders and White Scars. And out of all those the only ones the loyalists would want are: SW, TS, IF, IH, Sallies, EC and WS. The Alpha's and NL's are too unpredictable and bad from a public relations POV. And in the ones you want, the SW and TS hate each other. More importantly, these are the smaller Legions all told and lacking the greatest commanders and propagandists. 

 

As the heresy unfolded, out of the three best propagandists, two remained loyal (Roboute and Sang) while Lorgar turned traitor. (Horus I don't count...he was charismatic but not brilliant at propaganda)

Why would anyone in their right mind choose the World Eaters over the Blood Angels, White Scars or Space Wolves???  They have been shown to be subpar against "Tough" near equal enemies. (False Gods, Galaxy in Flames and Betrayer).   And that is exactly what Horus would be facing.  As a matter of fact the only times they have been shown otherwise is against a hap-hazard collection of Raven Guard (Raven's Flight/Deliverence Lost) and Night of the Wolf.  Even then in Night of the Wolf Angron would have died if it happened post heresy.  Even Khorne would have prefered the Blood Angels to Angron's mob (Fear to Tread).

 

I do realise that you included the Blood Angels.  But they would be better "Shock Troops" then the World Eaters and then include some of the benefits you said. 

 

That said I would accept "World Eaters - cannon fodder" as a fair choice.  In Angel Exterminatus there is an Iron Warrior who suggest that Horus should have commited the World Eaters earlier to "Save on the butcher's bill, at least for the Sons of Horus".  Talking about the battle in False Gods.  And there are going to be a lot of deaths at the gates of Terra.

 

In Scars E-III.  Malcador suggest that the combination of Dorn, Russ and the Khan would give "Even Horus pause".  So if true then Horus would not have chozen to allow that combo to remain loyal.  If he had the choice that is.

[Greyall]

He thought he had a choice, he's expecting the Khan to join him, so that's three out of one. Honestly, though, he'd probably be at an equally tighter spot with all those three. I don't think Horus anticipates the true effect of 'freedom' for a Primarch, most of them let themselves go to some measure. Fulgrim goes nuts, while Lorgar and Perturabo level up, for example.

 

It's easy to imagine the Khan's unpredictability getting worse and Russ' warriors letting their more bloodthirsty ways rise to the surface.

 

On the World Eaters/BA, specifically Signus Prime, Erebus wants to turn the Angel, Lorgar thinks it's useless and Horus turns the mission into one of assassination since he fears the Angel's charisma and abilites would make him the new Warmaster of Chaos.

 

On the World Eaters, it's dealt with in Betrayer: underestimating them is part of the reason they win wars in spite of the high body-count. Sure they lack in strategy big time (though not completely, there's the armoured column fluff bit to prove it), but they are great close-combat fighters, so once things get close, tables turn. Not to say the BA's aren't a better Legion overall, but they're not as relentless and perseverance wins wars. Ironically, the BA's might not have survived Signus if it wasn't for their rampage.

 

That's a nice bit about Ferrus, that he is a little troubled about not being the champion among his brothers (though he is incredibly respected). There might've been something there to make into a good argument, but he is the kind that, no matter how hard he tried to become no.1, has his loyalty set in stone.

[Kol Saresk]

Even in Night of the Wolf, the World Eaters would have won. It'd just be that after the battle, they'd turn around and go "oh, the Primarch's dead. Well, crap." The World Eaters are a tide of destruction that kills pretty much anything around them. Horus picked the monsters because 1.) they were the easiest to turn and 2.) he was smart enough to know it would be better to fight with them, than against them. Could you imagine if it had been the Alpha Legion, Night Lords and World Eaters fighting at Istvaan V? Alphas and Lords engage the fleet with boarding assaults while World Eaters take to the ground. Then, pull back the World Eaters and bomb the Traitors. When the other four turn, the betrayed would be in a much better position than the original three were.

 

Why? Because the AL, NL, and WE are independent. They don't think in terms of massive coordination with other Legions. Heck, it is more likely that the Night Lords and World Eaters would scatter and start burning worlds whose loyalty had the smallest shred of doubt while only sending a small, token force of say, ten to twenty thousand Marines to Istvaan. And the Alpha Legion, I can easily see them boarding enemy ships, taking the controls and turning their guns against their owners.

 

No, if Horus could have cherry picked, he'd probably dump the KSons for the Blood Angels, but that'd be it. Every single other Traitor Legion is it own parade of monsters. And each parade is better fought with, than against. Horus might want better company, but he'd rather have weaker enemies.