If Horus could have chosen the legions that sided with him..

[Greyall]

Historial accuracy proves the very use of a sword in a modern war wrong (actually, Sean Connery did that), nevermind running at someone with an axe. That's why people keep asking why Horus didn't bomb Terra...

 

Also, it's perfectly plausible for the victor of a battle to have lost more men. Say, if his strategy and tactics are worse. I'm disagreeing with you, I just think chalking the World Eaters as useless is wrong, it's like saying the Blood Angels should be exterminated because they might jeopardize a whole campaign due to the Red Thirst.

 

My points are not meant to be bulletproof, I'm defending a legion of suicidal berzerkers. What I'm saying is that they can be employed effectively (if not efficiently). And they have. And when they do they are incredibly hard to counter. The point is not to have more Marines watching your coronation. it's to be crowned. Horus was always one to employ his tools well, so what if they're more 'specialized' than most?

[Gree]

And yet the Goths are still considered a barbarian horde.

By misguided popular image yes. It doesn't change the point though.

 

They basically sacked Rome when it was a crumbling, decaying ruin of itself that relied on hiring other barbarian mercenaries. And even then the barbarians were hardly indistinguishable from the mercenaries they fought, a point you seem to have ignored.

Meanwhile, we have the World Eaters. An entire Legion of "barbarians" that brought to compliance an entire sector of the space the rest of the Imperium was leaving alone, by themselves. And when it came to the last planet, this "disorganized" and "ill-disciplined" force broke through an orbital blockade, landed a first wave, destroyed the fleet, launched a danger close orbital bombardment with pretty scary precision(coming from these disorganized, ill-disciplined, mindless killing machines) and then pacified an entire planet against a horde of mutants, abhumans, orks and who knows what else that literally covered the entire surface. And they have an entire armored regiment. That works. And receives praise. From Ferrus Manus. They might not be the most sane of the Legions or the most tactically brilliant, but they have proven time and time again that they are a force to be reckoned with and that it is better to fight with them, than against them.

They've triumphed over many foes, at least in many part due to being an eight-foot tall superhuman. But by the time of Betrayer they've degraded to an inefficient point. Angron ruined his Legion and it showed against the Ultramarines, taking far heavier losses than they should have.

In the case of the Night Lords, it'd be General William Tecumseh Sherman's rampage through the South magnified tenfold, if not more. Both sides would suffer. The VIII Legion would destroy entire supply lines without mercy or second thought. But where Sherman only cut off supply lines that went to Confederate prison camps and helped cause situations like the one at Andersonville, the Night Lords would disrupt supply lines that would hurt the Loyalists' war efforts, rather than just their prisoners.

Another poor example. Sherman led a force of experienced, disciplined Union veterans, facing a broken and exhausted enemy. The Night Lords are the Astartes equivalent of a bunch of thugs and bullies. Excellent against terrified mortals or when they have the card stacked in their favor. Against other Astartes, not so much.

[Gree]

Historial accuracy proves the very use of a sword in a modern war wrong (actually, Sean Connery did that), nevermind running at someone with an axe. That's why people keep asking why Horus didn't bomb Terra...

As I said, 40k has an element of the fantastical in it, but even that is mostly explained in-universe, with assault troops being mostly specialized formations of eight-foot superhumans. Meanwhile conventional military wisdom is certainly applied in 40k lore. Read Gaunt's Ghosts.

Also, it's perfectly plausible for the victor of a battle to have lost more men. Say, if his strategy and tactics are worse. I'm disagreeing with you, I just think chalking the World Eaters as useless is wrong, it's like saying the Blood Angels should be exterminated because they might jeopardize a whole campaign due to the Red Thirst.

The Blood Angels are at least sane for most of the time. The World Eaters pretty much lose all sorts of control in every single battle. Betrayer shows that quite well.

 

I don't hate the World Eaters, but I would certainly rate them worthless to me, since they have shown themselves a difficulty on following orders on a tactical level.

My points are not meant to be bulletproof, I'm defending a legion of suicidal berzerkers. What I'm saying is that they can be employed effectively (if not efficiently). And they have. And when they do they are incredibly hard to counter. The point is not to have more Marines watching your coronation. it's to be crowned. Horus was always one to employ his tools well, so what if they're more 'specialized' than most?

I could certainly contest the point that they would be efficient, or hard to counter. High losses are a horrible thing when your soldiers are hard-to-replace Astartes. For that reason alone the World Eaters are inefficient, never mind all the other flaws that Betrayer, reveals to us. Blood Angels and Space Wolves do much of the same job without sacrificing efficiency or tactical sense.

 

Out of all the Legions the World Eaters are easiest to counter. The Ultramarines showed us that quite well, with the World Eaters only winning because they had vastly superior numbers and Word Bearers to help them.

 

Surely, when deployed in certain conditions, like at Istvaan, or Nunceria, they can be quite effective, but the same could be said of all Legions. Put the World Eaters in a battle without overwhemling numbers or allies and I say their performance would suffer compared to their cousins.

[Greyall]

The reasoning is the same made for any tabletop assault-heavy army. They can win, but you have to be able to deliver the stongest units to the enemy's doorstep. It's not always efficient, it might very well result in more casualties. It works because if you get them there, assault superiority makes a difference.

[Wade Garrett]

What was that, Gree?

 

I'm having trouble hearing you over the sound of Emperor Augustus wailing for Varus to give him back the Roman Legions that were massacred in the Teutoburg Forest, in a land which was never brought under the heel of the Caesars.

 

As for the Night Lords being thugs and bullies who can't cut it with the real Astartes, I think the Blood Angels in Soul Hunter and the Genesis Chapter in Void Stalker would disagree with your judgement of the VIII Legion.

[Conn Eremon]

I will say that it did seem odd how big Forge World makes the World Eaters' numbers out to be. They're huge, even though their losses are phenomenally high. It only really makes sense if they have Ultramarine levels of recruitment, or higher. Which seems out of place.

 

To me, it sounds like their attrition rates should have surpassed their recruitment rates long, long ago. Even if they recruit from everywhere like the Word Bearers did post-Pilgrimage, the World Eaters should have killed themselves off long ago.

[Kol Saresk]

IIRC, the World Eaters were also the first to get through the breach in the wall. And the Night Lords' Raptors were the first on the wall. Meanwhile Guilliman, his 500400 worlds and the still thousands of survivors that are numerous enough that even while Calth was happening the Word Bearers and World Eaters in a combined fleet were "eh eh" about confronting them(Butcher's Nails), did very little in slowing down the Traitors. There's still another five years of them doing unrecorded activities that did nothing to stop what, six, seven Traitor Legions from reaching Terra.

 

Rogal Dorn couldn't even stop the walls from being breached. Heck, he believed that if he held the Imperial Palace with the defenders who were at the Siege versus just the Sons of Horus, the Iron Warriors, the World Eaters and the Night Lords(just those four Legions against his three) he would still lose.

 

Meanwhile, the Alpha Legion has been destroyed, three times I think it is now. And yet they're like cockroaches. Can't get rid of them.

 

I'm not saying Horus picked the superior Legions. The Legions that he had were inferior in many, obvious ways. And yet these inferior Legions are the same Legions who brought the Imperium to its knees. The same Legions who(even as broken down as the Night Lords are) are still feared ten thousand years later. The World Eaters reunite, you get the Reign of Fire. If a single Night Lords ship gets past Cadia, you get Grendel's World right in the backyard of Terra. The Death Guard send out plague fleets that have claimed tens, if not hundreds of worlds. The Alpha Legion is responsible for the destruction of at least two entire Chapters while only sending token forces, while recovering from "extinction" three times. And the list goes on. It's not a matter of picking "superior" Legions. It's picking the Legions who will go further than anyone else.

 

What sane Ultramarine will order a danger close orbital bombardment right next to their troops in the landing zone? Heck, what sane Ultramarine would even charge an orbital blockade just to land a handful of troops on a planet that is literally covered with enemies? But the World Eaters will.

 

What Raven Guard is willing to slaughter an entire population just to spread fear at Terra? But the Night Lords will.

 

What Imperial Fist is willing to use their mutations as psychological warfare and spend centuries building cults and positioning operatives, just to disrupt a military movement and are willing to play dead not once, not twice, but thrice? But the Alpha Legion will.

 

 

In the case of the Night Lords, it'd be General William Tecumseh Sherman's rampage through the South magnified tenfold, if not more. Both sides would suffer. The VIII Legion would destroy entire supply lines without mercy or second thought. But where Sherman only cut off supply lines that went to Confederate prison camps and helped cause situations like the one at Andersonville, the Night Lords would disrupt supply lines that would hurt the Loyalists' war efforts, rather than just their prisoners.

Another poor example. Sherman led a force of experienced, disciplined Union veterans, facing a broken and exhausted enemy. The Night Lords are the Astartes equivalent of a bunch of thugs and bullies. Excellent against terrified mortals or when they have the card stacked in their favor. Against other Astartes, not so much.

 

 

Actually Sherman was fighting civilians and whatever soldiers happened to be stationed behind the front lines. But I wasn't talking about the force. I was talking about the repercussions. Sherman destroyed every railroad and burned every town he came across. One of the side effects was a shortage of supplies to the war front. It also resulted in a shortage of supplies to a one Andersonville prison, that became famous for its mistreatment of Civil War prisoners. The Guards suffered from lack food as well as the prisoners. But due to the guards being sadists, when food did come in, they kept the Lion's share for themselves. If there had been more food, there might not have been an Andersonville. But alas, we'll never know because someone decided to stop the food from getting there.

[Gree]

What was that, Gree?

 

I'm having trouble hearing you over the sound of Emperor Augustus wailing for Varro to give him back the Roman Legions that were massacred in the Teutoburg Forest, in a land which was never brought under the heel of the Caesars.

As I said, exceptions exist. But in general the Roman Legions did conquer. Or need I remind your of Germanicus's follow up campaign against the Germans? Or any of the many, many examples of Romans conquering said barbarians?

 

Even then, the German leader was an ex-Roman auxiliary who basically caught the Romans under very poor conditions for the legions. Like I said, the exception that proves the rule.

As for the Night Lords being thugs and bullies who can't cut it with the real Astartes, I think the Blood Angels in Soul Hunter and the Genesis Chapter in Void Talker would disagree with your assessment of the VIII.

In both circumstances the Night Lords had some sort of advantage. In the former they ended up running away after defeating some fifty or so Blood Angels in home territory. Int he latter they had the good luck to take out many of the Genesis piecemeal.

 

But yes, the Night Lords being thugs and bullies who suck at fair fights is quite true. It's not even bias speaking, it's part of the lore. The Index Astartes spells it out, The Night Lords novels spell it out and the Horus Heresy series spells it out. ("The galaxy's most badass cowards" I believe A D-B said.)

 

I'm not saying the Night Lords can't win against Astartes. They certainly can with their usual methods. But fair fights are not they're thing and they are generally at a disadvantage due to fighting other Astartes because your average Night Lord would much rather be attacking defenseless mortals rather than fight Astartes.

[Greyall]

But Night Lords are also incredibly 'emo' about the whole cowardly thing. An Ultramarine doesn't feel the slightest bit cowardly for ambushing an enemy or taking a higher position/cover to have an advantage against it. Night Lords (or rather, the small force ADB writes about) feel that way because they're few, alone, and short on supplies. I'm not sure Krieg Acerbus shares the view.

[Kol Saresk]

I will say that it did seem odd how big Forge World makes the World Eaters' numbers out to be. They're huge, even though their losses are phenomenally high. It only really makes sense if they have Ultramarine levels of recruitment, or higher. Which seems out of place.

 

To me, it sounds like their attrition rates should have surpassed their recruitment rates long, long ago. Even if they recruit from everywhere like the Word Bearers did post-Pilgrimage, the World Eaters should have killed themselves off long ago.

Not necessarily. Look at Khârn. A pre-Angron Terran. And yet he broke not one, but two Legions into pieces and is a name even the World Eaters fear. The World Eaters have a high attrition rate, but imagine what kind of fighters that much of that type of fighting creates. If even one out a hundred recruits survive to see one hundred, that recruit will have more close combat than an Ultramarine of equivalent years. Not to mention there is the training against Astartes with live weapons. The weak die, but the strong become stronger. If you lose one thousand men, you recruit three thousand. At least, that'd be my thinking behind it.

[Gree]

But Night Lords are also incredibly 'emo' about the whole cowardly thing. An Ultramarine doesn't feel the slightest bit cowardly for ambushing an enemy or taking a higher position/cover to have an advantage against it. Night Lords (or rather, the small force ADB writes about) feel that way because they're few, alone, and short on supplies. I'm not sure Krieg Acerbus shares the view.

I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say. That the Night Lords don't like ambusing people and that they don't normally do that?

 

"It is very rare that the Night Lords voluntarily fight a force able to withstand them; they much prefer to attack the weak and frightened. Repeated instances have shown that the Night Lords will not give quarter, and are entirely bereft of mercy. Any poor soul offerin to surrender will have his pleas answered by mutilation and painful death. Night Haunter's Legion have no holy crusade, no belief that causes them to spread murder and misery to the worlds they visit. Similarly, they have no martial creed, all concept of honour eroded by the supplanting of vicious criminals into their ranks.

 

The Night Lords are masters of stealth, able to infiltrate a position quickly and silently. These arts appear to be innate to the legion, and come to the fore during the sick games they use to drive their prey into paroxysms of terror. Even before they turned to Chaos, the Night Lords adorned their armour with imagery of death; this is because they know that fear can be used as a weapon just as effectively as a chainsword or bolter. Given their predilection for picking on weaker foes, a fully-armoured Night Lords champion armed with a devastating array of weaponry is always more than a match for the foes he chooses to fight.- Index Astartes Night Lords.

 

Yes, it's absolutely within in the lore that the Night Lords are dishonorable bullies who love to prey on the weak and indeed prefer that sort of battle. I say that with affection as I do dearly love the Night Lords.

 

But yes, the Night Lords are not suited to pitched battle against other Astartes, not nessecarily because of their skill or training, but very much because of their temperament and mentality. I'm not saying the Night Lords would never attack loyalists, but they always tend to do it with everything stacked in their deck and they prefer weak targets.

 

Some exceptions exist. But that's what those are. Exceptions that prove the general rule.

[Conn Eremon]

Okay, exactly. They gave over a hundred and fifty thousand for the numbers. So your 'If you lose one thousand men, you recruit three thousand' line, coupled with those numbers, suggests a better recruitment chain than Guilliman ever achieved. Which, I'm sorry, is just wrong. It should be, at least. With the kind of recruitment they should be able to achieve, their numbers should be a lot, lot lower.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, exactly. They gave over a hundred and fifty thousand for the numbers. So your 'If you lose one thousand men, you recruit three thousand' line, coupled with those numbers, suggests a better recruitment chain than Guilliman ever achieved. Which, I'm sorry, is just wrong. It should be, at least. With the kind of recruitment they should be able to achieve, their numbers should be a lot, lot lower.

But if two thousand and five hundred of those three thousand die over the course of two years, and that is repeated in every single recruitment group, then only five hundred(or one sixth) of every recruitment group will actually live past two years. Maybe only one hundred will live for ten years. Maybe five will see two hundred.

 

Conjecture of course. But, they do have to have a high enough recruitment program to off-set the attrition rates and still be a viable threat. How, don't know.

[Wade Garrett]

I would also like to point out that in Betrayer Roboute Guilliman himself charges an orbital blockade just to land a few troops on an enemy held planet AND he's in the first drop pod down.

 

Rob may be a cool one, but when he finally does get his Irish on he can and will throw down with the best of them.

[Kol Saresk]

He also loses quite a few troops and gets beaten back by Angron, IIRC. And retreats.

 

Although, I'm not sure three ships count as an orbital blockade.

[Lonewolf86]

I think with free reign then the Ultras and WBs are definites. Combined they have the numbers of four mid sized legions. Iron Warriors are likely as others have stated as who better to overcome fortifications. Death Guard too probably with their resilience and determination. I reckon the Dark Angels would be great allies as they're a large legion with a big fleet, lots of equipment and are well led and would fit with most strategies (didn't they clock up a serious number of great crusade compliances?). Some combination (three) of the EC, BAs, WSs or SWs to round up would be my bet. I don't know much about the White Scars as I haven't read BrotherHood of the Storm and they've not featured in a Forge World book yet.

 

With regards to others pointing out that the original nine traitor legions did just fine bringing the Imperium to its knees-this is certainly true. But also things went their way more than not. They effectively eradicated one legion and crippled two others at Istvaan V. The Ultramarines were massively weakened before they even got into the war. The traitors punched above their weight with the element of surprise and I think really they almost succeeded despite some of their forces rather than because of them.

 

I know we shouldn't try bring real warfare into proceedings but the WEs aren't that great. The books have to play up the 'Raargh berserk rage allows us to overcome massive casualties' but even they acknowledge (like in Betrayer) that more organised forces tend to kill more of them in return even if they do lose. I can't see how they get through Istvaan III and V, fighting dark eldar, then the Shadow crusade in Ultramar and then the siege (where by most accounts they're hurled at the wall) without being reduced to a few hundred astartes!

[Wade Garrett]

He also loses quite a few troops and gets beaten back by Angron, IIRC. And retreats.Although, I'm not sure three ships count as an orbital blockade.

They do when one of them is the Trisagion.

 

As for how the World Eaters are able to recruit so many...it's all about that sweet War Hounds color scheme. And the chainaxes. Tell'em, Lhorke.

 

"CHICKS DIG THE COLOR SCHEME AND THE CHAINAXES. "

 

And there you have it.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

He also loses quite a few troops and gets beaten back by Angron, IIRC. And retreats.Although, I'm not sure three ships count as an orbital blockade.

They do when one of them is the Trisagion.

 

 

Fair enough

[godking]

 

Isstvan is too horrifying to be preventable or even made less of a massacre by anyone not crazy or paranoid. Which, yeah, does add up a bit in the case of the Emperor's Children.

 

None of the so-called "unpredictable" seem to be doing that badly. The World Eaters ravaged the Ultramarines empire. Same for the Word Bearers, though they keep a lot of hidden agendas. But Lorgar's as commited as they come. The Night Lords only lost the Thramas crusade because of the goddamned thingamagig the Lion found. Perturabo is in a good mental spot, getting fiercer by the day. Fulgrim is the only truly unreliable one, he'll actively destroy the traitor's cohesion if it means a new scale for his tail. The Alphas are extremely efficient. Sure they're very obscure, but they sow confusion and that's an invaluable asset. They contribute to the Ravens' fall, if I recall. Mortarion is a great soldier and probably the best ally Horus has, also one of the few to remain the Warmaster's brother, along with Perturabo.

 

Unpredictability is awesome. No one sees it coming, which in wartime means no one sees anything else.

 

Except the World Eaters aren't unpredictable. The World Eaters are very predictable. They have one main tactic that they almost always use and Angron doesn't even actually ''lead'' his Legion, so much as charge screaming while his men try to pick up the pace behind him. The World Eaters merely have the good fortune to have great superiority in numbers and allies in pretty much every time they fight in the Heresy.

 

I'm rather amused as people trying to present the World Eaters and Night Lords as these unpredictable mavericks, when they're really not. They both have their rather predictable methods of war and temperaments, while lacking in discipline, good leadership and trust.

 

I mean, historically, disorganized and ill-disciplined troops are generally rather crappy troops. If anything, the WE and Night Lords being loosely organized lunatics would make them easier to outmaneuver and defeat.

Regarding Isstvan III, the Warmaster ended up capitalizing on it and having each remaining member of the traitor Legions fight his brothers. Sure, it cost him a lot in lives, but also prevented any future dissidense. And while that wouldn't have been likely, it's one thing to agree to the majority of your 50.000 traitor brothers and 'go with it'. It's another to bathe yourself in your best friend's blood to prove you're with the traitors. Look at Horus Aximand...second thoughts were creeping even after he killed Torgaddon. I'm not saying Angron's move paid off. I'm saying it'd be 100% plausible to see a few stories about members of the traitor Legions having regrets and trying to sabotage the whole thing if Isstvan III had ended with the firestorm.

A soldier than cannot be controlled is in general, a worthless soldier in the end, no matter how ferocious or unrelenting he may be.

 

Then why did the Ultramarines not easily beat the World eaters ?

[Greyall]

The more strategically sound Legionsor Chaptersnhave no qualms about fighting from a position of superiority, ambushing, using lightning raids that take the enemy by surprise, etc. Talos' claw is just especially sensitive about it. As is stated throughout the novels, he has a false memory of the old Legion, recalling a sense of honour that was veiled at best. Many other chapters use ambushes and terrain to their advantage. Plus, most Space Marines like battle and wade through weaker enemy units and positions. Sure the NLs laugh while they do it but, operationally, it's not much different

[GhostMalone]

Why was it everyone thought pulling back the world eaters would be hard?

[Kol Saresk]

Don't know. To me, it would seem rather easy since its something they've done before. Land, charge, pull back, bomb, charge again. Maximum damage. Just because the tactics involve mass numbers and high attrition, it does not mean they aren't tactics.

[Gree]

Then why did the Ultramarines not easily beat the World eaters ?

.....because they where heavily outnumbered by the combined forces of the World Eaters and Word Bearers? I already stated that. Even then the Ultramarines were noted to have inflicted heavy losses on the World Eaters, heavier losses then WE should have taken against a force that size. ( I assume you are referring to Betrayer)

[Lonewolf86]

 

Then why did the Ultramarines not easily beat the World eaters ?

.....because they where heavily outnumbered by the combined forces of the World Eaters and Word Bearers? I already stated that. Even then the Ultramarines were noted to have inflicted heavy losses on the World Eaters, heavier losses then WE should have taken against a force that size. ( I assume you are referring to Betrayer)

And BL need to show events that can justify why the UMs couldn't get to Terra. They need large numbers of them to be killed and tied up in conflicts! If the WE are their normal mindless self I'd expect a force of ten thousand UMs to defeat ten thousand WEs in most situations.

[Gree]

Why was it everyone thought pulling back the world eaters would be hard?

 

Because it's hard to pull back people when they can't think or speak coherently? The Butcher's Nails drive the World Eaters into screaming lunatics on the field of battle. There is a scene is Betrayer, where Khârn realizes that nobody can even understand or follow his orders because they are being driven so berserk by the Butcher's Nails.  Heck, much of the time on the battlefield Angron can't form any complex thoughts beyond ''KILL!KILL!KILL!''.