Grotsmasha's Conversion Challenge 4: Duels and Diorama's

[Aqui]

If I put Marine helmets on my Genestealers, will they be allowed?

I kid .

Seriously though, I don't agree with the decision but I do understand it.

Will the conversion challenge here and on IBH be the same challenge, or will the be separated out into two different contests?

It will be the one Challenge, the IBoH thread will exist purely for Xenos WIPs and Completions. Sign-up will still be through the B&C Signup thread.

Cheers,

Jono

As an Admin on IBoH, I'd like to say a few things. Firstly, I think that any sign ups should be done on the IBoH forum rather than here, as I don't think it's gentlemanly to use this site to promote this too much. We want to forge a strong bond with this site, as after all, without the B+C it's doubtful we'd exist in our current incarnation. Secondly, any WIP pictures MUST be posted using sites such as Photobucket to host picutes rather than use the galleries the B+C provide. Brother Argos has enough to deal with without added bandwidth usage. Any topics with links to pictures hosted here will be removed and the member(s) involved will be messaged. Bandwidth theft is not on and we won't be part of it. As long as the Mods and Admin are okay with this topic being used to direct any members who wish to enter over on IBoH then that's great, otherwise I think it's fair to leave a link in the first post and leave it at that.

I don't wish to come across as a party pooper, but I don't want any bad blood between the B+C and IBoH. If there are any issues, either from Grotsmasha or the B+C Mods/Admin, then please contact me so we can carry on in good faith

[Adeptus-Alaska]

I think this challeng is taking the record for most banter before an actual vow is made!

[Grotsmasha]

As an Admin on IBoH, I'd like to say a few things. Firstly, I think that any sign ups should be done on the IBoH forum rather than here, as I don't think it's gentlemanly to use this site to promote this too much. We want to forge a strong bond with this site, as after all, without the B+C it's doubtful we'd exist in our current incarnation. Secondly, any WIP pictures MUST be posted using sites such as Photobucket to host picutes rather than use the galleries the B+C provide. Brother Argos has enough to deal with without added bandwidth usage. Any topics with links to pictures hosted here will be removed and the member(s) involved will be messaged. Bandwidth theft is not on and we won't be part of it. As long as the Mods and Admin are okay with this topic being used to direct any members who wish to enter over on IBoH then that's great, otherwise I think it's fair to leave a link in the first post and leave it at that.
I don't wish to come across as a party pooper, but I don't want any bad blood between the B+C and IBoH. If there are any issues, either from Grotsmasha or the B+C Mods/Admin, then please contact me so we can carry on in good faith

Cheers Aquilanus, I knew that there was a couple of IBoH Admins here, I'd just had a mind blank as to who you guys were. I'll be posting on the IBoH forums to announce the Challenge also. As for your concerns,
1- As the primary site for the Challenge, every participant will need to sign-up in this thread. The thread on the IBoH site will be a duplicate of the thread on the B&C and their vow of participation will need to be shown there as well, members of the IBoH will not need to sign-up for the B&C if they wish to participate, as the IBoH already allows all viable entries.
2- 100% agree on the bandwidth theft, and have already previously stated that pics will need to come from somewhere other than the B&C.
3- Keeping it friendly between the two sites is also important to me, and any tension caused on my part is unintentional. Feel free to contact me at anytime if any issues arise.

Cheers,
Jono

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I suggest Imgur.com for all your photo hosting needs. Even with a free account, I never once saw any of pics disappear or be blanked out for using too much bandwith, like photobucket and some other sites do. It's a great site, and very user friendly.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

There has only been 1 -- ONE -- contest that ever involved XENOS on this site. That was a joint venture with The Waaagh, and the XENOS were not even posted here. Basically the Marine players did Orks and posted them on the Waaagh, the Waaaghers did Marines and posted them here.

 

So before I hear anymore QQ over this decision I invite you to look at the contest galleries here on the site:

 

2002 Banner Contest

2002 Rhino Contest **EDIT: Would seem these pics aren't working currently but I will gladly attempt to redo them this weekend.

 

2003 Eye of Terror Contest

2003 LBC Contest

2004 Dreadnaught Contest The Furibundus with the nid on the base was DQ'd btw. Feel free to contact Daeothar on that if you wish.

2005 Chapter Badge Contest

2005 Captain Contest

2006 Resurrection Contest

Call of Chaos Contest

2008 AoBR Contest (the one we did with the Waagh)

2010 Golden Bolter Squad

2010 Golden Bolter Single Mini

2010 Golden Bolter Large Mini/Vehicle

 

Your duel could easily be done with Marine/Chaos Marine/Imperial Guard/AdMech/=][= forces if you wish to do it here. Heresy, Badab War, 4th Quadrant Rebellion, Black Crusades -- there is a myriad of options to choose a time/place where B&C appropriate factions have squared off.

 

We can't tell people they can't have xenos in the battle reports or on the bases of their normally posted minis, that would be akin to us saying "if you don't play this way or this Chapter you gotta get out!". But this is a contest that we've allowed to go on here and as such it gets treated like any other contest on the B&C. Same goes for Maverika's contests and it was never an issue there.

 

Everyone that has posted in this thread has been a member for at least a year so it really shouldn't surprise anyone about the stance on this. It is very regular occurrance here that Xenos get put down without mercy.

 

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the QQ and invite you all to take up Aquilanus' offer and if you wish to incorporate Xenos, take it to the IBoH forums. On the other hand, if you wish to slightly modify the terms to better fit the B&C, then by all means continue on once you have done so.

[Grotsmasha]

Just one point of clarification there Kurgan, are you saying that if the Challenge continues how it is now, (PA vs PA here, Xenos vs PA there), you don't want the Challenge on the B&C at all?

 

With the battle reports, I understand you can't tell people they can't fight Xenos, but in some reports there's pics of Xenos forces without B&C appropriate models anywhere to be seen. Is there absolutely no way to allow pics of the finished diorama only with Xenos? No WIPs anywhere, no mass invasion of the site, just one thread with maybe 20-30 Xenos getting beat on and dying bloody?

We're all here on the B&C because we love PA, and trust me when say I don't want Xenos on the board either, and I honestly can't see this as a gateway to that happening.

 

Jono

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I have serious disagreements with Kurgan's post but I'm not going to argue with a mod. I'm done. Not touching this thread again.

[Aqui]

Just one point of clarification there Kurgan, are you saying that if the Challenge continues how it is now, (PA vs PA here, Xenos vs PA there), you don't want the Challenge on the B&C at all?

 

With the battle reports, I understand you can't tell people they can't fight Xenos, but in some reports there's pics of Xenos forces without B&C appropriate models anywhere to be seen. Is there absolutely no way to allow pics of the finished diorama only with Xenos? No WIPs anywhere, no mass invasion of the site, just one thread with maybe 20-30 Xenos getting beat on and dying bloody?

We're all here on the B&C because we love PA, and trust me when say I don't want Xenos on the board either, and I honestly can't see this as a gateway to that happening.

 

Jono

There is a way for this contest to happen, that (should) fulfills the criteria without Xenos appearing on B+C:

 

All Dioramas featuring units supported by the B+C (Sisters, Marines, Chaos Marines, IG, Ad Mech etc) are posted here in the usual way.

 

All Dioramas featuring ANY Xenos whatsoever are featured on IBoH using hosting sites such as Photobucket. ANY posts hosted on B+C that have Xenos in them that are used on IBoH will be removed and the member concerned warned. The wip topic should have its link, and link ONLY posted here in this (or new) topic.

 

That way members get to enter the diorama they want, but adhere to this sites rules.

[Chronotonic]

sooo if I wanted to I could have 3-8 astartes on a base with bolters pointing at each other and that would work...but I have to have 2 teams showing on the base for the diorama

[Rikkumon]

Hey all,

 

I am very keen to have a go at this challenge!

 

However, I am new to 40k and the forums so I'm hoping I can get some help approving my idea? Both in line with forum rules and 40 k lore.

 

I envision a duel between two IG sanctioned pyskers inside an imperial city. One tempted by the dark gods, leading a rebellion. One leading a final, valiant defence. The hallway littered with the dead from both sides.

 

It was originally going to be a librarian and sorcerer, however, I was browsing the GW website and saw the set of three pyskers and changed it up a little.

 

Thanks for any feedback!

 

Rikkumon.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Just one point of clarification there Kurgan, are you saying that if the Challenge continues how it is now, (PA vs PA here, Xenos vs PA there), you don't want the Challenge on the B&C at all?

I don't see PA vs PA as an option as yet so not sure that constitutes "as it is now". That said, if it is a duel/diorama where both sides are a B&C armies then fine, have it here. If on the other hand you are sticking with the Xenos vs. B&C Armies then you'll need to take it to IBoH. If you are going to do half here and half there that is fine too.

 

I get that you aren't trying to make waves Grot, but we've been doing this for 15 years just about and believe me when I say any little crack in the shield wall people try to exploit, which is why we keep it locked up tight. There is a particular purpose and mission for this site and do our best to maintain it.

[Argun]

All Dioramas featuring units supported by the B+C (Sisters, Marines, Chaos Marines, IG, Ad Mech etc) are posted here in the usual way.

 

All Dioramas featuring ANY Xenos whatsoever are featured on IBoH using hosting sites such as Photobucket. ANY posts hosted on B+C that have Xenos in them that are used on IBoH will be removed and the member concerned warned. The wip topic should have its link, and link ONLY posted here in this (or new) topic.

 

That way members get to enter the diorama they want, but adhere to this sites rules.

I like this suggestion, as those of us who don't want to create an entirely separate account on another forum can stay here, basking in our collective insanity as our brothers who want to do outstanding battles between Marines/Guard and Xenos scum can still do so. All while being in the same competition!

 

Rikkumon, on making Guard dead, you've got your work cut out for you if you want varied poses. Might I suggest the psyker with laspistol as the loyalist, and the one with his hand outstretched as the rogue?

[Toxichobbit]

There has only been 1 -- ONE -- contest that ever involved XENOS on this site. That was a joint venture with The Waaagh, and the XENOS were not even posted here. Basically the Marine players did Orks and posted them on the Waaagh, the Waaaghers did Marines and posted them here.

 

So before I hear anymore QQ over this decision I invite you to look at the contest galleries here on the site:

 

2002 Banner Contest

2002 Rhino Contest **EDIT: Would seem these pics aren't working currently but I will gladly attempt to redo them this weekend.

 

2003 Eye of Terror Contest

2003 LBC Contest

2004 Dreadnaught Contest The Furibundus with the nid on the base was DQ'd btw. Feel free to contact Daeothar on that if you wish.

2005 Chapter Badge Contest

2005 Captain Contest

2006 Resurrection Contest

Call of Chaos Contest

2008 AoBR Contest (the one we did with the Waagh)

2010 Golden Bolter Squad

2010 Golden Bolter Single Mini

2010 Golden Bolter Large Mini/Vehicle

 

Your duel could easily be done with Marine/Chaos Marine/Imperial Guard/AdMech/=][= forces if you wish to do it here. Heresy, Badab War, 4th Quadrant Rebellion, Black Crusades -- there is a myriad of options to choose a time/place where B&C appropriate factions have squared off.

 

We can't tell people they can't have xenos in the battle reports or on the bases of their normally posted minis, that would be akin to us saying "if you don't play this way or this Chapter you gotta get out!". But this is a contest that we've allowed to go on here and as such it gets treated like any other contest on the B&C. Same goes for Maverika's contests and it was never an issue there.

 

Everyone that has posted in this thread has been a member for at least a year so it really shouldn't surprise anyone about the stance on this. It is very regular occurrance here that Xenos get put down without mercy.

 

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the QQ and invite you all to take up Aquilanus' offer and if you wish to incorporate Xenos, take it to the IBoH forums. On the other hand, if you wish to slightly modify the terms to better fit the B&C, then by all means continue on once you have done so.

 

Before you read this Kurgen, please know that i'm not complaining about this contest. What i'm doing is giving my opinion as a member of this community on an issue that I feel goes beyond this contest. That being said, it's not an issue I feel strongly about, so even if I disagree with the way things are, i'm fine with things not changing. I'll be putting my diorama up on IBoH, but i'd really have liked to put it up here as well, not just in this thread, but in another part of the forum. I'll get to that in a bit though.

 

I find it really odd that xenos on bases and battle reports are allowed, but xenos on dioramas aren't. I know that you need to draw the line somewhere otherwise B&C would loose what makes it B&C, but this feels like the wrong place to draw the line. Is having some xenos on a diorama really that different to having some xenos on a base, or in a battle report? I feel like the deciding factor of what is allowed and what isn't should be based on what the battle report/model/diorama focuses on. A battle report focusing on a B&C army vs xenos is fine, a battle report focusing on xenos vs xenos isn't*. A model from a B&C army with xenos on the base is fine, but a xenos model with B&C army models on the base isn't. It feels like the logical step with dioramas would be a diorama focusing on a model(s) from a B&C army is fine, but a diorama focusing on xenos models with models from a B&C army isn't. There is a difference between something that focuses on a B&C model with xenos and something that focuses on xenos with a B&C model. That being said, the line is obvious with battle reports and bases, the line with dioramas could be a lot more murky. I can understand if it's something the mods don't want to allow because of the murkiness of that line and how easily it would be for people to cross it and unpleasantness to follow.

 

However, I think it's worth considering at least. Some of the greatest triumphs (and losses) of Imperial and Chaos history have been involving xenos, but currently board rules disallow any way for someone to represent those triumphs with artwork or a diorama. The Crimson Fists on Rynn's World, the Scythes of the Emperor on Sotha, the Order of Our Martyred Lady on Sanctuary 101, the Ultramarines on Macragge, the Blood Angels, Black Templars and Salamanders on Armageddon. There's plenty more examples of major battles in the background that aren't allowed in miniature or art form, even though they are pivotal moments for the Imperial/Chaos forces involved. It's a real shame that those battles can't be celebrated on this board.

 

This site is humanity resplendent and yet, if someone does a diorama celebrating the resplendence of humanity, they can't post it on this site just because it includes xenos. It just doesn't feel right.

 

Like I said, i'm not complaining. I just wanted to give my perspective on the issue and give a different opinion for you to consider (if you haven't considered the points I made already). I understand that you guys (the mods) have a much clearer picture of how things would change than I do and i'm not going to argue over this with you. There's no need to justify the current rules anymore than you have - I understand the mods reasons and although I don't entirely agree, I don't entirely disagree either. Whether you guys stick to things as they are or make changes, i'll be happy to abide by your rules and continue to post on here.

 

I'd still really like to be able to post my Last Stand of the 1st (Battle for Macragge) on the Ultramarines forum when it's finished though :p.

 

* I wanted to say a battle report focusing on xenos vs a B&C army (ie a report told from the perspective of the xenos player) isn't allowed, but i'm not sure what the site ruling is on that.

[Raztalin]

Wow - Toxichobbit couldn't have put it better.

 

I too am really disappointed in the Mods response to this challenge; and having taken part in all the others before this one (like others) I'm gutted that I wont (on principal) be partaking in this - which is arguably the most fun of all the challenges.  The principal i speak of is having to create another account on another forum, one i do not ever read or use.  I see no sound logic from any mods response thus far - if you allow non Imperial models on bases and in Bat. reports then a diorama surely is in the same bracket (Marine stood over dead Tau / Orks for example) ... Its not that i have a plethora of non B&C approved models to use, I'm a DA man thru and thru, but to create a scene with Belial and co. on Piscina IV during the Third War for Armageddon would be epic ... and require me to buy some Orks :)

 

At any rate its the people who maintain this forums decision and one I will stick by ... I do so hope though that the weight of opposition to the decision will sway the mods back to allow this (what would be) fantastic challenge to continue unhindered. (fingers crossed ;) )

 

Peace out and good luck to all those that are partaking!!!  I await epic-ness :)

[Grotsmasha]

2- Minimum two models, one of which MUST be B&C appropriate, 1x Hero, 1x Villain. A giant melee is acceptable on a 120mm base if anyone wants to

 

 

 

Just one point of clarification there Kurgan, are you saying that if the Challenge continues how it is now, (PA vs PA here, Xenos vs PA there), you don't want the Challenge on the B&C at all?

I don't see PA vs PA as an option as yet so not sure that constitutes "as it is now"......*snip.....

Ok, so I think there has been a misunderstanding of Rule. It did not mean that there HAD to be a Xenos model, it meant that at least one of the PRIMARY combatants HAD to be a B&C approved model. PA vs PA, PA vs Guard, PA vs Sister, PA vs AdMech was always a viable and expected option within the Challenge. The simply meant NO XENOS ON XENOS dioramas. In no shape or form was I trying to force people to make Xenos apart of every diorama.

Toxichobbit has summarized my feeling better than I could have ever written. I too understand that a line must be drawn, but I feel that line is in the wrong place here. A diorama is an artistic display, a snapshot, from a battle, a mini battle-report you could say. I honestly don't understand how a B&C army vs Xenos diorama pic falls beyond the scope of the site, but a pic of a Xenos army is A-OK in a battle report, there's more Xenos in one pic then there would be in the entire Challenge.

 

Pic straight out of a report in the Liber Victorum

 

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i112/mughi3/batreps/kb63013_zpse2121750.jpg

 

I understand that you decision has been made, but would greatly appreciate a little more thought on the matter before the Oct 1st start date.

As it stands now, I'll be continuing with the multi-forum setup, but hope for the Mods position to be revised so that we can keep the entire challenge on the B&C.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Brother Heinrich]

There are some really compelling arguments here and I can understand the MOD team's position on the matter. I believe there is a fine, but very defined line, between showing humanity transcendent and celebrating xenos scum. Toxichobbit put it quite well and I have to agree completely. All that needs to be done is establish quite clearly in the competition rules that the diorama or duel must show or contain a B&C approved model in triumph over one of the myriad foes of humanity. Does this mean you can't show a diplomatic meeting between Tau and Space Marines? Yes, probably. But if the Space Marine is crushing the Tau diplomat, a-okay, humanity transcendent. Make the contest rules along those strict guidelines and it will fit into what this community is about. If some people aren't okay with that then they don't have to compete. That's what this board is essentially built on, if you don't like PA then you don't have to participate.

 

Grotsmasha has illustrated numerous examples of xenos present on this board, including the batrep picture above containing only Eldar. This isn't a gateway for xenos, the day after the competition you're not going to see Tau and Tyranid threads start cropping up in the WIP section, you guys won't allow it and neither will the community. We're here for a reason, we love power armor with a passion. We just want to see our power armored minis triumph over the rest of the galaxy, not the other way around.

 

I would hope that in the land of internet trench warfare the MOD team will take the time to weigh all of the arguments being made. On a human level I know how we like to make a decision and stick to it, especially when you're in a position of authority. Believe me, I was an NCO in the Marine Corps, I understand not wanting to have your authority undermined by questions coming from subordinates. That has its place on the battlefield, however this is a simple internet forum devoted to little plastic men and the wonderful universe around them, the undermining of authority isn't an issue. I'd like to think that between MODs and the General Populace, we are all one unified group maintaining the core celebration of the greatness of humanity. I hope you can see a way to revise your position, if you guys continue to maintain that the contest cannot even have xenos present, then I would like to see some more evidence as to why. As it stands right now I have to say the community and Grotsmasha have made a far more compelling case.

Please do not take my tone as an attack, 5 years in the Corps have left me a little rough around the edges, I love you guys and what you do to make this place tick.

[Grotsmasha]

I'm more than willing to have this Challenge (where Xenos are concerned) on a very short, melta-happy leash. If it takes Humanity Resplendent to have already won, or to be landing the killing blow to allow Xenos, with only completed dioramas being shown with absolutely no Xenos WIP, I'm more than willing to stipulate that in the rules.

I even give you my word to be the first to report any violations of the stipulations that are put in place.

To be completely honest, I feel as though most of the planned dioramas fell within the above stipulations anyways.

Except for maybe my planned Blood Angel/ Necron bro-fist

Cheers,

Jono

[Toxichobbit]

I'm more than willing to have this Challenge (where Xenos are concerned) on a very short, melta-happy leash. If it takes Humanity Resplendent to have already won, or to be landing the killing blow to allow Xenos, with only completed dioramas being shown with absolutely no Xenos WIP, I'm more than willing to stipulate that in the rules.

I even give you my word to be the first to report any violations of the stipulations that are put in place.

To be completely honest, I feel as though most of the planned dioramas fell within the above stipulations anyways.

Except for maybe my planned Blood Angel/ Necron bro-fist

Cheers,

Jono

I dunno if that's needed Grot. I feel like that's taking humanity resplendent too literally. We don't need to be winning to be resplendent over the xenos, heroic last stands can be just as awesome as glorious victories. The background is full of both victories and defeats centred around humanity. Personally, some of the defeats are the best - they feel much more heroic than the victories which are often a bit contrived and involving really silly odds or even worse, the hero crushing something insanely powerful in single combat to make them seem even more heroic. I may purge xenos at every opportunity, but I do feel sorry for the Avatar, whipping boy that it is.

I'd take Invictus and the Ultramarines 1st fighting to the last against Behemoth over any of Calgar or Sicarius' antics any day. And that's what I intend to do for my diorama, regardless of the board or contest rules (i'll just post it elsewhere if needed).

[GooseDaMoose]

"this is a contest that we've allowed to go on here"

 

This is exactly what saddens me so much about this community. I love B&C, it's regulated really well for everyone to be polite and kind, and still critical towards each other, but when I got into it, I figured it was a site that was FOR and BY the people who love and play this game. I appreciate the tight leash that mods keep on flaming/trolling, but this kind of weird megalomaniac talk always freaks me out.

 

That is NOT the way you should be thinking about your jobs mods/Lords of B&C. You're not here to ALLOW us to do anything at all, you should be here to ensure a safe space for us all to share the hobby we love. 

 

Which is why I think this topic should be open to discussion, instead of it being mods vs. users. We're all users!

[Grotsmasha]

@ Bryan Blaire: I do not understand why the above image was turned into a link, as 1- It is clearly displayed as an image in the Liber Victorum, and 2-It is hosted on Photobucket, which we are allowed to link directly to pictures.

I feel as though that Edit shows an inconsistency in the policies enforced here on the B&C, which is what has causedd this issue in the first place.

 

Jono

[The Shadow Guard]

I've just seen this thread so, having been involved in running  a couple of painting events I feel compelled to say something:

 

First of all the B+C has survived, grown and remained a calm, healthy, family friendly place that has allowed hobbyists like us an environment to thrive in, while all around us the most similar forums have been blown in to the warp or become relatively unfriendly. This is solely due to the commitment of the moderator team and more importantly the unstinting dedication of the administrators, Argos, Kurgan and Brother Tyler in particular. The uncompromising stance has kept this board free of many disputes and potentially devastating issues...it is an ugly world out there. So before any of you start to make judgements about the admin and mod staff please take in to account that this is done by dedicated volunteers who balance rerl life with their board duties.

 

Secondly, I am not sure if Grotsmasha actually requested permission from the forum mods/admins to run this contest. Even long standing moderators wishing to run an event in the B+C ALWAYS run them by the admin team to clarify amongst other facts, the relevance, approriateness, timing and impact on the board before making even an announcement. So, if such permission had been sought it is likely that these issues would have been sorted out prior to commencing.

 

Finally, despite what we all feel, especially when we have a great idea which we want to develop,  one cannot always make everyone happy all the time. Hence the rules and like all rules you have to allow the experience of the admin/mod teams to determine what is appropriate and not. They do listen to the frater if the argument is valid, as you would see from the inclusion of an entire section dedicated to non-power armoured warriors of the imperium aka Imperial Guard.

 

Grot, it's a great idea and if i were you I would simply make the entire diorama B+C compatible and run it from this board...but just one man's opinion. :)

 

SG

[Artemid]

I think the distinction is thus:

 

A xenos corpse on a base is.. base dressing. The focus is chiefly the model on the base. With a battle report, the focuses here are still very much how the given B&C army performs (though I think BRs are different by nature of not being modelling).

 

With a diorama of a *duel* with one party xenos the focus is, necessarily, split between B&C and xenos. The Xenos is by definition a significant and important part of the effort in ways a corpse dressing (usually) isn't.

[KBA]

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/3/19/343352_md-Brutus.jpg

 

Is this diorama or base dressing? If he wasn't on a standard base, but a larger one surrounded by complex terrain details, what would be the difference? Base size? I think we present a valid argument worth having at look at here mods :)

 

(above photo from a WIP log found right in this forum)

[Grotsmasha]

@ The Shadow Guard: Both Kurgan and the PC&A mods were contacted and offered feedback prior to the first Challenge: Chaplains, and in this instance it was I who took the question of how Xenos should be handled to the PC&A mods.

At this point I feel as though if I'd kept my mouth shut and had the participants display only completed dioramas with Xenos, this would've been a non-issue, judging by how "scenic bases" have been handled previously.

[Red Scorpions]

Im in. Get to reuse my sons of horus and fw bitz. Plus the new sternguard!