Grotsmasha's Conversion Challenge 4: Duels and Diorama's

[Acebaur]

"this is a contest that we've allowed to go on here"

 

This is exactly what saddens me so much about this community. I love B&C, it's regulated really well for everyone to be polite and kind, and still critical towards each other, but when I got into it, I figured it was a site that was FOR and BY the people who love and play this game. I appreciate the tight leash that mods keep on flaming/trolling, but this kind of weird megalomaniac talk always freaks me out.

 

That is NOT the way you should be thinking about your jobs mods/Lords of B&C. You're not here to ALLOW us to do anything at all, you should be here to ensure a safe space for us all to share the hobby we love. 

 

Which is why I think this topic should be open to discussion, instead of it being mods vs. users. We're all users!

 

The B&C is for and by the people who love this game. Everyone on the Mod and Admin teams enjoys this hobby in some fashion or another, but we are also a forum with rules and a mission statement. What we are about is PA, not Xenos. To quote the B&C 101

 

 

Welcome to the Bolter & Chainsword discussion forum. The B&C

exists to promote constructive discussion about power armored armies in

the Warhammer 40,000 universe. It's as simple as that really. If you

want to talk about PA army fluff, painting, modelling, tactics, army

lists or anything else this is the place to be.

 

What we ALLOW is PA only.  If it is Xenos even sharing the spotlight with PA it is not allowed. BatReps are a different matter. 

[Grey Mage]

There are some really compelling arguments here and I can understand the MOD team's position on the matter. I believe there is a fine, but very defined line, between showing humanity transcendent and celebrating xenos scum. Toxichobbit put it quite well and I have to agree completely. All that needs to be done is establish quite clearly in the competition rules that the diorama or duel must show or contain a B&C approved model in triumph over one of the myriad foes of humanity. Does this mean you can't show a diplomatic meeting between Tau and Space Marines? Yes, probably. But if the Space Marine is crushing the Tau diplomat, a-okay, humanity transcendent. Make the contest rules along those strict guidelines and it will fit into what this community is about. If some people aren't okay with that then they don't have to compete. That's what this board is essentially built on, if you don't like PA then you don't have to participate.

 

Grotsmasha has illustrated numerous examples of xenos present on this board, including the batrep picture above containing only Eldar. This isn't a gateway for xenos, the day after the competition you're not going to see Tau and Tyranid threads start cropping up in the WIP section, you guys won't allow it and neither will the community. We're here for a reason, we love power armor with a passion. We just want to see our power armored minis triumph over the rest of the galaxy, not the other way around.

 

I would hope that in the land of internet trench warfare the MOD team will take the time to weigh all of the arguments being made. On a human level I know how we like to make a decision and stick to it, especially when you're in a position of authority. Believe me, I was an NCO in the Marine Corps, I understand not wanting to have your authority undermined by questions coming from subordinates. That has its place on the battlefield, however this is a simple internet forum devoted to little plastic men and the wonderful universe around them, the undermining of authority isn't an issue. I'd like to think that between MODs and the General Populace, we are all one unified group maintaining the core celebration of the greatness of humanity. I hope you can see a way to revise your position, if you guys continue to maintain that the contest cannot even have xenos present, then I would like to see some more evidence as to why. As it stands right now I have to say the community and Grotsmasha have made a far more compelling case.

 

Please do not take my tone as an attack, 5 years in the Corps have left me a little rough around the edges, I love you guys and what you do to make this place tick.

I dont take your post as an attack, and while the repeated posting on the subject again and again may frustrate some people I assure you weve taken the time to talk about this calmly and what it really boils down to in the end is thus:

 

Any rule thats put forth other than 'no xenos' is going to be gamed by someone. Other people will use that to push it a step further, and be confused when their pictures are taken down or their entries disqualified. We dont want a mess like that, we dont want the political accusations that always come with someone being DQ'd from a contest, and we dont want the hurt feelings that it would bring to have people be told that hours, if not days, of their hard work was for nothing. So when the issue came up it was discussed and we asked that it not become an issue while there are other options. With a new C:SM coming out, and several recent marine dexs and a new FW book for the heresy there really are alot of options.

 

Im sure that 99% of you feel the same way- you want to make a quality piece to put forth, and would follow the rules. But with 55,000+ members that 1% still sometimes ruins it for everyone, even before we account for misunderstandings and reinterpretations that always come into play with art.

[Grotsmasha]

Cheers Acebaur and Grey Mage, thanks for popping in and letting us know where your heads are at, and the reasonings behind your decisions...but...the question remains,

 

WHY ARE BATTLE REPORTS DIFFERENT???

 

Why can a pic, as previously shown, of a Xenos army with 30+ models be shown there, but a not a single Xenos be shown in a one on one battle??

 

I genuinely do not understand the difference, I do not understand how that is not a gateway, but dioramas would be, especially since they haven't been before I bothered to ask.

 

I understand you've made your decisions, but I honestly think that "it's different because I said so" just feels, wrong.

 

Jono

[GhostMalone]

Joni brother it's okay, how bout I finish my diorama upload it and get everyone happy again ;)

[Argun]

Joni brother it's okay, how bout I finish my diorama upload it and get everyone happy again

I'm with you brother! My diorama's almost complete anyway, so maybe showing what we can do without using xenos will put the spark back into our fellow B&C brethren?

[Toxichobbit]

Cheers Acebaur and Grey Mage, thanks for popping in and letting us know where your heads are at, and the reasonings behind your decisions...but...the question remains,

WHY ARE BATTLE REPORTS DIFFERENT???

Why can a pic, as previously shown, of a Xenos army with 30+ models be shown there, but a not a single Xenos be shown in a one on one battle??

I genuinely do not understand the difference, I do not understand how that is not a gateway, but dioramas would be, especially since they haven't been before I bothered to ask.

I understand you've made your decisions, but I honestly think that "it's different because I said so" just feels, wrong.

Jono

The thing with battle reports is that they are impossible to put up on here without the xenos involvement. Dioramas aren't.

You make a diorama on your own and choose it's subject matter. You choose whether to have B&C vs B&C, or B&C vs xenos. In addition, the dioramas primary purpose is simply to look cool and make people go "ooh, pretty!".

You play a game against an opponent and do not get to choose the subject matter (in this case, the opposing army). If one type of battle report was allowed and another disallowed, then it would defeat the entire purpose of battle reports, because they are just as much there to teach through others experiences as they are to entertain. I guess you could ban pictures of just the xenos army and only allow "action" shots of both armies duking it out, but that seems petty and unneeded when battle reports are a clear exception to the "no xenos" rule because of their worth as an educational tool to the community.

In other words, the difference between dioramas and battle reports is their purpose within the community. Dioramas are mainly aesthetic while battle reports are largely educational. You can loose one type of diorama and they keep their value to the community, you can't loose one type of battle report and keep their value to the community.

In addition to this there's the matter of enforcing the B&C rules. When it comes to battle reports it's a solid line that can't be crossed or bent. Battle reports are allowed as long as they involve a B&C army. Simple and very difficult to misinterpret. With dioramas the line is murky and easily bent before it's crossed. Where exactly do you draw the line? No xenos is where it currently stands, but were it to be pushed forward and xenos allowed then things get difficult. How many xenos are allowed? How do you decide if the xenos are the focus or if the B&C models are? I could do a diorama with one Marine, fill the rest with xenos and have it focus on the Marine. Likewise I could do a diorama with tons of Marines and just one xenos that would clearly be telling the xenos' story, with the Marines as supporting cast. It's all about perception, not just the perception of the dioramas creator but also the perception of the viewers. To some what might be a triumphant celebration of an Astartes overcoming impossible numbers of xenos, might to others be a xenos force overwhelming an Astartes. Battle reports are clear because they are text that leaves very little room for personal interpretation supported by pictures, but dioramas are pictures and like most artwork, their meaning is often decided by the individual viewers.

I guess you could enforce something like all dioramas could be accompanied by background that puts the focus on the B&C models that explains how the diorama focuses on them and tells their story, but that feels like heavy handed control of people's creative works and it could easily be abused, the same way some players make up a bit of background to excuse the combination of units/allies that goes into a very powerful list. It's too easy for people to just pay lip service to the rules while actually breaking them.

Now I love dioramas, I love dioramas of Astartes vs xenos and I personally think they should be allowed. But there is several differences here between bat reps and dioramas that makes one a clear exception to no xenos and the other at best, a possible murky exception. The mods do have good reasons for not allowing B&C vs xenos dioramas and while in my personal world i'd mod differently (or I might, hard to say without being in the mods shoes), I can't disagree that the mods are right.

That's the thing, both sides in this discussion are right, neither the community who would like dioramas nor the mods who are disallowing them are wrong. In truth I suspect the mods would also like the dioramas, but from the perspective of the amount of work it would be for them and the possible backlash and crap storm that could follow a disqualification of a diorama they realise that the advantages do not outweigh the disadvantages.

It's a shame that dioramas vs xenos aren't allowed, I dearly would have liked them to be, but I understand why they're not and fully support the mods decision.

I don't think I put that very clearly. It's hard to say in writing that you both agree and disagree with a decision without having an overly verbose self repeating essay of a post. Hopefully you get the idea and don't just think that i'm totally suffering from dissociative identity. .

Edit: anyway, we've got a decision, we've made a case against it and I hope we all understand why the decision still stands. Lets move on and concentrate on getting together our dioramas, less this thread devolve into arguing the same points over and over again and end up locked.

To the mods - are we allowed to post a link to our dioramas involving xenos? Strictly speaking I think it's allowed because we're not literally posting the xenos on the board, but I want to make sure. It would be a decent compromise to host elsewhere but be able to draw the attention of B&C members to our work.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

WHY ARE BATTLE REPORTS DIFFERENT???

Last time that I am going to answer this.

 

 

In the same way that you or I can't tell someone how to base their army, we have zero control over who you play at a store, tournament, your garage, wherever. We can't realistically tell people"only post a bat rep if you played another B&C army". We tried that and it doesn't work.

 

Contests on the other hand, we can absolutely say, if you want it on here then it has to fall within certain guidelines and as demonstrated at length in my earlier post, no contest here has ever featured Xenos.

 

You are trying to compare Apples to Oranges in the hopes of getting your produce on the store shelf.

 

Take this sweet piece from GD Germany, there are over 120 nids on this piece alone, plus a dozen or so Blood Angels, but is it a Space Marine piece or a 'Nid piece?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cWSm73J0xkQ/Ugi5qCEJ9AI/AAAAAAAA65A/txBRheSc4AM/s1600/DSC02241.JPG

 

And that is why for contest we hold tight to B&C armies only.

 

 

ToxicHobbit: I think what we will do, after this has all percolated down, is trim out the thread back to the original post. Obviously with some modifications by Grot and we'll just have a link in that first post to which thread on the IBoH the Xenos related dioramas will be in.

[Noctus Cornix]

ToxicHobbit: I think what we will do, after this has all percolated down, is trim out the thread back to the original post. Obviously with some modifications by Grot and we'll just have a link in that first post to which thread on the IBoH the Xenos related dioramas will be in.

 

That would probably be the best choice for everyone.

[Grotsmasha]

 

ToxicHobbit: I think what we will do, after this has all percolated down, is trim out the thread back to the original post. Obviously with some modifications by Grot and we'll just have a link in that first post to which thread on the IBoH the Xenos related dioramas will be in.

 

That would probably be the best choice for everyone.

Good news this was a 'Get your bits in order' thread, the actual thread will be posted on Oct 1st, so no need to trim this one. I don't expect a response to this, but feel I need to clarify my point. I don't object to battle reports of B&C armies vs Xenos, I don't object to in progress pics of the battle featuring BOTH forces, but as evidenced by the removal of the pic I posted from the Liber Victorm, pics of straight up Xenos armies shouldn't be allowed........or dioramas under certain guidelines, should.

 

As for IBoH thread there will be a link in the sign-up thread on the B&C, and a B&C link from IBoH to here.

Either way, feel free to lock the thread, the important info is in the first post.

[Grotsmasha]

*Bump*

 

Just a reminder and a heads up for anyone who missed this the first time around. The rules have been updated to reflect the last couple of pages of....discussion.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Brother Heinrich]

You might just want to start a new thread when the comp starts Jono, that way it'll clean everything up and make it simple.

[Grotsmasha]

You might just want to start a new thread when the comp starts Jono, that way it'll clean everything up and make it simple.

Yep, this was always just a "heads-up, get your bitz in order" thread.

[Grotsmasha]

*BUMP*

 

Last bump, Duels and Dioramas kick off in just under a week, hope evryone has their bitz in.....

I've begun construction on one diorama on a 60mm base, and it's my recommendation to go bigger, 60mm is pretty tight.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I got a Trygon base and even that is much tighter than I was imagining. I've had to drop a lot of the background detail off mine.

[Argun]

Mine's pretty much ready for the first day of the competition, and I am really excited to show it off (even though I know someone's gonna do better than I). Using a MC base isn't all that hard to fill up.