Something wrong with BL books...?

[marvmoogy]

Since I got back into the hobby this time last year, I have also got into BL books.  I'm up to A Thousand Sons in the HH series and have read Ravenwing, Deathwatch, The Purginf of Kalidus and Titanicus from the 40k world.

 

I love reading them but feel somewhat disappointed every time I finish one.  Take Deathwatch, for example.  I picked it up and just couldn't put it down - I practically finished it in 2 days.  Even so, it just didn't satisfy me.

 

Does anyone else always feel a little bit cheated after finishing a BL book?  By cheated, I mean that the authors could have made so much more of the book.  The plot could be thicker, the characters developed in more depth, more attention given to big events?

 

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh as I genuinely enjoy the books...but I always want more!

 

If anyone has read any Tom Clancy, then this what I'm talking about.  In The Sum of All Fears, the guy spends an entire chapter describing what happens in the first few seconds of an nuclear explosion....A WHOLE CHAPTER!  I'd love that level of detail in a 40k / HH book.....anyone with me?

[Mantras]

Basically what you are saying is that they produce a product that makes you want to buy more of their products? Sounds about right to me, I'm exactly the same with BL books.

[marvmoogy]

yeah, but at the same time, I think they could do so much better.  Look at the HH saga....the first 3 books are great, but then I can't help but feel that the quality drops off.

 

Regardless of whether or not I want to buy more, don't you think the deserve a "B minus - could do better"?

[Redtoof]

I think you'll find the Horus Heresy books start getting better again from about where you are. There were a few that were a bit 'meh' (the first dark angel one, I'm looking at you!) but in my opinion after Prospero Burns they are generally better.

 

I know what you mean about the lacking detail bit. Aside from setting up events and then leaving it for the next book (which we all hate but we know they are going to do anyway) there is a difference in scale between many of the books. The first three essentially focus on the story of one marine and one event, so are able to go into more detail, but after that they tend to fast forward a bit through many of the encounters and focus more on what the 'big' characters like the primarchs are doing.

[Surrender_Monkey]

The Heresy Series is beginning to frustrate me because it doesn't seem to be moving forward with the plot. I realise the fans want every Legion to have it's day, but I feel the overall story is suffering.

 

They say a good story should have a beginning, middle and end. We had a great beginning with the Loken trilogy, and while the middle has been generally good it is starting to drag, I am beginning to wonder if Horus is ever going to get to Terra (yes we all know he does eventually).

 

The point I am trying to make is that you can have too much of a good thing, and even in the better novels that I've read recently I feel like the over arching plot, which moved forward so well early on, is now just treading water, and that leaves me somewhat dissatisfied.

[marvmoogy]

I see what you mean about the first 3 HH books and get that a trilogy will be able to afford more detail.

 

From a writing point of view, I really liked the first DA book.  It did a really good job developing the traits of the Chapter....but the ending could have used an extra 100 pages or so!  To me, Battle for the Abyss and Flight of the Eisenstein are the worst offenders......so far!

 

SPOLIER ALERT (Sorry, don't know how to embed the spoiler hidey thing)

 

It's like in the new Deathwatch book when the woman kills the would-be assassin with her digital weapons....i had to go back and read the page again!  I'd read on a couple of pages and had missed it!  Big events in the story line like that really deserve to have more than a few words dedicated to them!

[skawolf]

I think it is specifically a 40k thing. I usually feel satisfied with the WHFB novels that I read.

[Redtoof]

I see what you mean about the first 3 HH books and get that a trilogy will be able to afford more detail.

 

From a writing point of view, I really liked the first DA book.  It did a really good job developing the traits of the Chapter....but the ending could have used an extra 100 pages or so!  To me, Battle for the Abyss and Flight of the Eisenstein are the worst offenders......so far!

 

I found those two a bit lacking as well. The DA book did have a lot of detail in it for the first 2/3rds of the book but I just found it a bit of a chore to read. Incidentally my favourite of the series so far is Dan Abnett's Know No Fear, which I think you will like as it covers a single event in quite a lot of detail.

[marvmoogy]

I best get through the next 5 or 6 or however many it is in record time!!

[Growler67]

The Heresy Series is beginning to frustrate me because it doesn't seem to be moving forward with the plot. I realise the fans want every Legion to have it's day, but I feel the overall story is suffering.

 

They say a good story should have a beginning, middle and end. We had a great beginning with the Loken trilogy, and while the middle has been generally good it is starting to drag, I am beginning to wonder if Horus is ever going to get to Terra (yes we all know he does eventually).

 

The point I am trying to make is that you can have too much of a good thing, and even in the better novels that I've read recently I feel like the over arching plot, which moved forward so well early on, is now just treading water, and that leaves me somewhat dissatisfied.

 

Keep in mind that during the events of the HH, many things were happening simultaneously....just spread out over many books.  The "plot" is far grander than a single book in the series but from the perspective of the known universe at the same time.  The books are individually showcasing specific segments of that universal timeline.

[mactire]

Try Game of Thrones, plenty of detail but dont expect it to end.......................ever

[Rime]

The problem is (no surprise) Game Workshop. The writers are in a strangle hold. GW dictates what they can and cannot say;

Space Marines are immoral and undying heroes,

Enemies are raving lunatics, xeno fodder to make the Space Marines look more epic, or 2D with little or no character development or backstory,

It must be family friendly in the extreme, older readers be damned...

You get the picture. The only writer they haven't lashed into submission is ADB. His stuff is epic. But even that has an air of hesitation.

Deathwatch was weak in a few ways. Foremost was the character development of the main characters. They were so non-cannon as far as 40k lore go's. Then dancing around the obvious enemy of the novel until the much later chapters (that was annoying for me). Then offing a character in an attempted dark fashion failed to have much inpact. The novel didn't go anywhere until the final chapter. I've read better short stories frankly.

It's this behaviour that has made me vow to never buy another Black Library novel. I am curious to know how much longer the current writers will continue to write for Black Library and tolerate the strangle hold. Artists are already dropping out. 

[Kol Saresk]

You haven't read Dan Abnett much have you?

[Rime]

You haven't read Dan Abnett much have you?

 

Consider how much the guy has written, nope. Read a number of his Black Library novels (Gaunts Ghosts to date, HH novels, Brothers of the Snake, Titanicus and a few others) and that's about it.

[Kol Saresk]

And you consider heads being blown off and people being stabbed into piles of meat "child viewable"?

[Surrender_Monkey]

 

The Heresy Series is beginning to frustrate me because it doesn't seem to be moving forward with the plot. I realise the fans want every Legion to have it's day, but I feel the overall story is suffering.

 

They say a good story should have a beginning, middle and end. We had a great beginning with the Loken trilogy, and while the middle has been generally good it is starting to drag, I am beginning to wonder if Horus is ever going to get to Terra (yes we all know he does eventually).

 

The point I am trying to make is that you can have too much of a good thing, and even in the better novels that I've read recently I feel like the over arching plot, which moved forward so well early on, is now just treading water, and that leaves me somewhat dissatisfied.

 

Keep in mind that during the events of the HH, many things were happening simultaneously....just spread out over many books.  The "plot" is far grander than a single book in the series but from the perspective of the known universe at the same time.  The books are individually showcasing specific segments of that universal timeline.

 

It's that spread perspective that has, for me, caused it to lose it's focus. There are as many, if not more stories to tell than in the 41st millennium, but the black library isn't trying to tie all their other 40k novels into a single series.

 

It's too late now, but I think the series might have been better served following certain protagonists from start to finish in a relatively short space of time. Rather than the seemingly random switching of perspectives we have now, focus on one or two characters/legions at a time. Follow the Luna Wolves from Ullanor to Terra and back to the Eye of Terror, then maybe the Ultramarines from Calth to the Codex and Second Founding, then maybe Lorgar from Monarchia to Daemonhood.

 

If you only had one or two of these series on the go at once, you could get some character progression and endings in a reasonable space of time, rather than following a Legion for one book then hardly mentioning them for years.

[Chaeron]

I think it is specifically a 40k thing. I usually feel satisfied with the WHFB novels that I read.

 

The opposite here - I rarely feel sated with recent Fantasy novels.

[Rime]

And you consider heads being blown off and people being stabbed into piles of meat "child viewable"?

"There is only war"

An old 40k motto. Heads blown off and getting hacked to death with a chainsword is the bread and butter of 40k. Or was until recently... 40k was never truly family friendly. To say otherwise is like saying war is a joy. But dark fantasy and science fiction doesn't need to be all about slaughter and war. There are moments of happiness and romance too. I'd use the Gaunts Ghosts stories as a testament to that. 

May I ask where your question of what is child viewable came from? It seemed to come out of nowhere.

[Kol Saresk]

You said that GW is making the novels "family friendly", family friendly usually translates to "child viewable", or at least "older child viewable".

 

Speaking as a Night Lords fan, a Primarch literally punching the head off of a Word Bearer is not family friendly. And neither is a Primarch being disembowelled by a fork. Cool, awesome, and gory, but not family friendly.

 

However, I do agree with you, those concepts can exist. Although, the very nature of grimdark almost mandates those concepts not end well.

[Jareddm]

The Heresy Series is beginning to frustrate me because it doesn't seem to be moving forward with the plot.

This mindset has been frustrating me quite a bit lately.

 

People need to stop looking at the Horus Heresy as a story and start looking at it as the giant war that it is.  The series is called the Horus Heresy for a reason.  There isn't meant to be a singular focus on any one set of characters.  There's a tremendous amount going on and I'm glad to see BL moving away from set piece battles determining the entire war.

 

Imagine a series of books called World War II.  No focus, just a long set of novels designed to tell as many stories about as many happenings going on in as many places during those years.  Could you imagine people's reactions if the books only detailed the invasions of Poland and France, Pearl Harbor, El Alamein, Monte Cassino, D-Day, Operation: Market Garden, Battle of the Bulge , Midway, Iwo Jima, and the atomic bombs?  Sure, those are the ones everyone knows, but it's barely scratching the surface!  And for a book series of that name, why would you NOT want it to detail every event?  As has been said, you already know the ending.  Is it so painful that you have to get there as quickly as possible?

 

My apologies, but that's what I think every time I hear people want the Horus Heresy to 'get back on track'.

[Rime]

You said that GW is making the novels "family friendly", family friendly usually translates to "child viewable", or at least "older child viewable".

 

Speaking as a Night Lords fan, a Primarch literally punching the head off of a Word Bearer is not family friendly. And neither is a Primarch being disembowelled by a fork. Cool, awesome, and gory, but not family friendly.

 

However, I do agree with you, those concepts can exist. Although, the very nature of grimdark almost mandates those concepts not end well.

 

Thought it over and you are right. Apologises for my comments against yours. Games Workshop are not making family friendly novels

[Ironmonger]

A lot of your typical epic stories (insert genre) follow just a handful of main characters. This Horus Heresy is about as epic as stories can get, and the character count seems to grow with each book.

 

Now for those of us that have favorite characters (guilty I am) I want my Loken, Garro, the Sigilite, Nykona Sharrowkyn, and the Lion and of course the Big E in every book. Overall I give the Horus Heresy a B. 

 

My favorite book from the BL is definately Brothers of the Snake. 

 

Now I am going to be a little negative. GW/BL know without a doubt that they have a cash cow here with the books. I have been a fan since 1989. Although I haven't played in 15yrs I have kept up with the fluff and I have bought most of the books and own many in both hardcopy  and digital format. 

 

I am 42 and am truely wondering if I will live long enough to see the final battle for Terra in the Horus Heresy line. Also if they will ever bring the story to a conclusion with the Lion. I mentioned this in another thread about the Lion being the only known surviving Primarh ( being in suspended animation with the Watchers in the Dark) and what is this relationship with Cypher and his current exploits in the 40k universe.

 

Look GW is not big on customer relations, not been my experience anyways. They are keeping strict reins on the storyline (all storylines) and they are going to milk for as long as they as they can.

 

They have me, hell they have had me since I was a 19yr old Jarhead. I joke with the wife that my grand kids will be reading 40k books in the nursing home

[Scribe]

I find it depends on the author.

 

The Heresy is too huge in scope to handle a small set of characters. For example (grabbing a name from the post above) Sharrowkyn could never appear in another novel, and I wouldnt shed a tear. Sevatar has no purpose in book with the Ultramarines, but hes an interesting character all the same. sigismund DOES pop up all the time in little mentions, to the point where he is almost as central to the tale as the Emperor it seems, at least as much if not more so than some of the Primarchs themselves.

 

The tale is going to take a long time. I am a bit resigned to that, but its ok, as long as I stick to the authors I enjoy they can keep it rolling.

[wtwhizz]

Yeah, there's been something wrong with the BL for awhile now.

 

I don't know whether it's the worldwide economic downturn, GW being a bunch of a$$holes, or what, but the quality at the BL has dropped significantly.  They've also picked up a bunch of terrible business practices (for the consumer anyway).

 

The BL has always been rather "meh" when it came to up-to-date 40k books.  As in books based post-Heresy.  Yeah, there were some great ones like Abnett's work with the Ghosts, McNeill's work with Uriel Ventries/Honsou, and others.  However, a lot of the books were just throwaway nonsense.  

 

Now, however, we don't even really get full novels anymore.  It's all short story BS.  So, the BL wants you to pay $2-$3 a pop for 2-3 pages worth of a short story.  A normal 300+ page book goes for $7-$10, but this short story which is not even five pages is only half that in price?

 

Secondly, they started switching to audio books.  Um, I like, ya know, reading.  Dumbing down of today's youth and all that, but some of us still like to read our stories.  Not have some bad voice actors tell us a story.  A story, mind you, that is barely any length at all.  It's essentially a voiced over short story.  For example, I bought Chosen of Khorne just to give it a whirl.  Khârn, his fellow World Eaters. . .sounds awesome right?  Yeah, not so much.  Thirty minutes of listening to some dude wreck the picture I had of Khârn's voice and the story being simple Khârn walks out and kills some dudes and guess what?  He betrays them.  Har har.  

 

And this nonsense isn't just dicking over the consumer.  It's wrecking the brand.  Instead of us getting a full length, badass novel over Khârn, his motivations, how he fits into the bigger picture, etc. we get some short audio book which doesn't flesh the character or the world of the 41st millennium at all.

 

Of course, I could go over all of GW's other screw-ups that have held 40k back.  Going all the way back to letting Blizzard walk away with their IP.....

 

The Black Library is just sad right now.  Maybe 1 or 2 Heresy books a year and even a bunch of those are suffering from the typical GW "Drag this out as long as you can and give away nothing because we don't believe in actually revealing anything around here!",  several audio books I'll never buy, and a metric F-ton of overpriced short stories which aren't worth our time.  Throw in some badly written tripe in the updated 40k Universe and you spend the entire year wishing you could take a flamethrower to Abnett's and ADB's backside to make them write faster.

 

I was skeptical of doing it, but I decided what the hell, I'll throw down $13 freaking bucks on this new 40k book, Pandorax.  Supposed to have Abaddon and Azrael, right?  Jesus H. Christ.  It was written so terribly I couldn't get past the first two chapters.  Maybe that's GW's new plan.  Write everything at a 6th grade reading level.  Profit.  

 

It's just aggravating.  In the hands of a competent company 40k could be so much more.  As it is, I think it's going to be slowly dying out.

[Pavement Artist]

What we have here is a perfect example of your personal opinion being applied as a crude broad brush stroke. You may not enjoy the Black library books but some of your accusations are a little confusing.

 

1.) "It's all short story BS". Incorrect. GW and BL have started moving into the digital market due to the boom in tablets and E readers. A lot of the new products reflect that, including offering many short stories as a cheap hit of entertainment. I must have missed the part where this affected the publishing and distribution of full length novels as to me it seems that the company is maintaining as regular a release schedule as any.

 

2.) "Switching to audio books". Good god man, you make it sound like as if they are doing nothing but audio books now. Much like the digital products. BL has branched out into audio stories as a way of widening the brand. Again, it doesn't effect the distribution of novels at all. The Khârn story you referred to was conceived and produced as an audio drama, it isn't like they sacrificed a novel to bring it to life.

 

3.) The Heresy is a tricky beast. On one hand, i agree with you that things are dragging on. However, you have to consider there is demand from the fan base that all the legions get their time in the sun. This is particularly important now Forge world is on the Heresy hype train. The novels are much more than just stories for some folks. They are fonts of inspiration for their army projects.

 

4.) I don't think Blizzard quite walked away with the IP. There is no legal grounds for GW to come down on them for Starcraft. Even if there are certain similarities, They have developed their own universe significantly enough that even were GW to take umbridge with an ancient case, it would be laughed out of court. Every GW worker i have spoken to about Blizzard actually enjoys their properties and acknowledges that the company went their own way with things. There is no fight there.

 

5.) Rose tinted spectacles my man. What is schlock for you is purely subjective. I have heard mostly negative reviews about Nick Kyme's Salamanders series and yet the books seem to have sold extremely well. It is licensed fiction at the heart of it. Sometimes people want nothing more than a cheap hit of entertainment that resonates with the certain faction in the game that they enjoy. It is fairly shallow yes but not everyone is looking for War and Peace in 40k.

  The issue with quality is mostly down to the ability of the authors. It isn't a case of GW force feeding stories to the writers. Authors such as Dan Abnett and ADB out strip the work of people such as Ben Counter and Nick Kyme and some of the Black Library old guard like Graham Mcneil and Gav Thorpe can be inconsistent at times. It isn't a new development within the company, or a sign of degradation within the brand. Black Library deals with Licensed fiction within the settings of the games we enjoy. The stories exist to excite hobbyists and to sell products.

 

I started the hobby in 2003 and back then, Black Library offered a sparse amount of books, most of them far more shallow and throwaway than the stuff we get today. The brand always has been a couple of excellent writers surrounded by a few mediocre to decent guys. Black Library is a much more integral part of the license today than it ever was, and is certainly putting a lot more effort into its input than a decade ago.