Something wrong with BL books...?

[SteelPaladin]

I love the addition to audio dramas. Maybe its because I spend a lot of time on the road, but they definitely make long car drives much more bearable. You make it seem like they have switched to audio dramas to the exclusion of physical books. That is not really true. They even put out hardback collections of the audio dramas for people that do not want to listen.

 

The quality of BL writers has never, ever, been better. From old stalwarts like Abnett and McNeill, to the fantastic "new kids on the block" ADB, Wraight, French, Sanders, Haley, and Annandale.

 

The new crop of authors have breathed new life into BL, and I am very excited for many more stories to come.

[Pavement Artist]

The issue is, you can never please everyone. Instead of looking at it like "Oh Black library are putting out way more content". Some people take it as a sign that they are neglecting physical releases. 

 

Thanks for reminding me. John French and Rob Sanders are actually fantastic too. See, new talent all over the shop.

[wtwhizz]

What we have here is a perfect example of your personal opinion being applied as a crude broad brush stroke. You may not enjoy the Black library books but some of your accusations are a little confusing.

 

1.) "It's all short story BS". Incorrect. GW and BL have started moving into the digital market due to the boom in tablets and E readers. A lot of the new products reflect that, including offering many short stories as a cheap hit of entertainment. I must have missed the part where this affected the publishing and distribution of full length novels as to me it seems that the company is maintaining as regular a release schedule as any.

 

2.) "Switching to audio books". Good god man, you make it sound like as if they are doing nothing but audio books now. Much like the digital products. BL has branched out into audio stories as a way of widening the brand. Again, it doesn't effect the distribution of novels at all. The Khârn story you referred to was conceived and produced as an audio drama, it isn't like they sacrificed a novel to bring it to life.

 

3.) The Heresy is a tricky beast. On one hand, i agree with you that things are dragging on. However, you have to consider there is demand from the fan base that all the legions get their time in the sun. This is particularly important now Forge world is on the Heresy hype train. The novels are much more than just stories for some folks. They are fonts of inspiration for their army projects.

 

4.) I don't think Blizzard quite walked away with the IP. There is no legal grounds for GW to come down on them for Starcraft. Even if there are certain similarities, They have developed their own universe significantly enough that even were GW to take umbridge with an ancient case, it would be laughed out of court. Every GW worker i have spoken to about Blizzard actually enjoys their properties and acknowledges that the company went their own way with things. There is no fight there.

 

5.) Rose tinted spectacles my man. What is schlock for you is purely subjective. I have heard mostly negative reviews about Nick Kyme's Salamanders series and yet the books seem to have sold extremely well. It is licensed fiction at the heart of it. Sometimes people want nothing more than a cheap hit of entertainment that resonates with the certain faction in the game that they enjoy. It is fairly shallow yes but not everyone is looking for War and Peace in 40k.

  The issue with quality is mostly down to the ability of the authors. It isn't a case of GW force feeding stories to the writers. Authors such as Dan Abnett and ADB out strip the work of people such as Ben Counter and Nick Kyme and some of the Black Library old guard like Graham Mcneil and Gav Thorpe can be inconsistent at times. It isn't a new development within the company, or a sign of degradation within the brand. Black Library deals with Licensed fiction within the settings of the games we enjoy. The stories exist to excite hobbyists and to sell products.

 

I started the hobby in 2003 and back then, Black Library offered a sparse amount of books, most of them far more shallow and throwaway than the stuff we get today. The brand always has been a couple of excellent writers surrounded by a few mediocre to decent guys. Black Library is a much more integral part of the license today than it ever was, and is certainly putting a lot more effort into it's input than a decade ago.

 

Hey, I get it.  Fanboys are gonna fanboy.  

 

I love the Warhammer 40k universe.  I have miniatures, I play the few video games that get made around it, and I have been reading books for the BL for ages now.  I don't think I was that harsh on them.

 

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books.  Less novels are being released.  That's fact.  Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine.  It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content.  The audio books aren't that long (though I will admit to never having bought them other than the one I mentioned) and most of the short stories don't even deserve to be called short stories.  They're just a couple of pages long.

 

One thing you didn't argue with was the cost of these things compared to how much you're getting.  Hell, their ebooks are all more expensive than normal novels unless we're talking about hardback.  And this "enhanced" ebook stuff is kind of silly right?  I mean, I dropped $16 on Angel Exterminatus the enhanced ebook (because it was the only way you could get it as an ebook, IIRC) and it was just the book with a couple of pencil drawings thrown in.  

 

Meh.  I'll be honest.  I've just been annoyed with how little attention Warhammer 40k gets in the wider media world.  THQ goes belly up and we don't get sequels to Space Marine.  Dark Millennium craps out and now we're going to be waiting until the end of 2015 for the same game from a game developer who has been focused on only making movie to game adaptations and kid games.  They're making a freaking WOW movie, but there's literally no chance Warhammer 40k is ever going to make it to the big screen.  

 

I NEED the Black Library to keep pumping out awesome content, because otherwise what do I have?  :crysintoMarkVhelmet:

 

And for the person who said the audio books get put into printed editions. . .really?  I haven't seen that.  Is it somewhere on the BL site?  

[Conn Eremon]

I never understood the complaint that the Horus Heresy is slow moving. Just because they call it a series doesn't make it any less of a setting.

 

It's like complaining that another Armageddon or Macharian Crusade book is released instead of continuing the 13th Black Crusade, or that Battle of the Fang went backwards in time.

 

Considering this is also a Unification Wars/Great Crusade series, we have over two hundred years to explore. Cool your jets.

[Pavement Artist]

I didn't argue with the cost of the digital editions because i agree. However, i do feel this is due to the infancy of the format. Take the new generation of video game consoles. The prices are always stupid when they are initially released. I bet you will see the E book format drop in price once its been around a while.

 

I don't at all think less novels are being released at all. When i compare it to ten years ago when i first entered the hobby, it seems to me the content and variety of novels has increased ten fold.

[SteelPaladin]

wtwhizz,

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/the-scripts-volume-one.html

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/space-marine-script-book.html

http://www.blacklibrary.com/exclusive-products/space-marines-script-book-2.html

[Pavement Artist]

Oh, by law i am not allowed to be within 50 metres of that Corax artwork.

[A D-B]

 

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books.  Less novels are being released.  That's fact.  Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine.  It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content.  

 

 

I get what you're trying to say, dude, but the problem here is that what WHK is saying is the actual truth, and what you're saying are your preferences, taken as fact. The fact you'd consider his well-realised and detailed explanation of the situation as "fanboys are gonna fanboy" is pretty tawdry, and beneath a decent level of discussion. (Insert "Tsk!" here.)

 

But WHK is right: there's no slowing down in novel releases - there are just more releases in other formats as well. There are more writers than ever (significantly more...) producing much, much more content. That's the fact. Novels aren't slowed down because people are doing other things. There's not a stringent production space that can only handle X number of releases and for every audio drama and short story, you've got a novel going unwritten. The novels are still getting written; more than ever, in fact. And some writers aren't novelists, or are naturally better at (or just prefer) writing in those other formats. That's where their interests lie. 

 

And as for prices, all I can comment on there is that in terms of regular hardbacks, trade paperbacks, and mass-market paperbacks (released in hardcopy or eBook) their prices may look insane compared to discount retailers, but in terms of the actual book trade / bookstores / traditional publishing, their prices are pretty much in-line with the industry standard. If you're objecting to a collectors/premier format (as you were) that's one thing, but you can't compare that to traditional book/eBook pricing, as that's a false comparison. The non-collectors/premier versions exist, priced mostly in line with other books. 

 

So I wouldn't worry too much, Whizz. If you want the novels, they're not going anywhere. Quality will vary in any demographic, and with more and more writers the quality will spike and dip depending on author talent and reader taste, but it's not indicative of a wider trend in BL's production.

 

Hope this was at least slightly reassuring.

[Pavement Artist]

Also, as a small coda to the "Oldest is bestest" argument. A friend recently lent me a copy of a Warhammer fantasy book from a while back that features an Empire Hamlet where people are strung up and strained to make Slaaneshi wine.

 

Soylent Green wine folks. Think about what you could be reading right now.

[Conn Eremon]

It could be the differences between our countries, but here in California all of the books are just above the upper realms of standard pricing. If I go to my town's Yesterday's Books, $5 for a paperback is about as high as you go. But that is a second-hand store. At a nationally big chain, like Barnes & Noble, that's about as cheap as you go, with the range for paperbacks being $8 - $9 at the max. The BL section, however, goes a step above that, with basic paperbacks in the $9 - $13 range. Hardcovers at Barnes & Noble tend to be 25 - 30, BL 30 - 35.

 

So the Black Library does price their products higher than the industry standard, at least over here. That may be different for you guys in 40k's homeland. Here, a BL paperback has the price of those tall paperbacks, a BL tall paperback has the price of an omnibus, a BL omnibus has the price of a hardback and a BL hardback has the price of . . . Whatever is higher than a hardback. Collector's hardback? Whatever.

 

The reason why this is fresh in my mind is because I literally just left a Barnes & Noble, and had to decide between a BL book and others to stay within the budget I gave myself. BL lost today because I was able to fit in two more books of the same size and heftiness without it.

 

I am not saying this because I agree with What The Whizz's points, or to complain about Black Library's prices. I enjoy them well enough to buy them regardless, and it's quality work like AD-B's that makes it worthwhile. Just stating the fact that there is a price difference, though I make no claims for anywhere but where I live and can readily see the difference.

[Zincite]

A friend recently lent me a copy of a Warhammer fantasy book from a while back that features an Empire Hamlet where people are strung up and strained to make Slaaneshi wine.

The exact same thing happens to a Rogue Trader and his companions in Eye of Terror.

 

Scary stuff.

[Bat33.1]

Secondly, they started switching to audio books.  Um, I like, ya know, reading.  Dumbing down of today's youth and all that, but some of us still like to read our stories.  Not have some bad voice actors tell us a story.  A story, mind you, that is barely any length at all.  It's essentially a voiced over short story.  For example, I bought Chosen of Khorne just to give it a whirl.  Khârn, his fellow World Eaters. . .sounds awesome right?  Yeah, not so much.  Thirty minutes of listening to some dude wreck the picture I had of Khârn's voice and the story being simple Khârn walks out and kills some dudes and guess what?  He betrays them.  Har har.  

 

If you want Khârn you need ADB - Betrayer is your answer here. The audio book is voiced very well and is unabridged. I have to agree the audio shorts are mostly poor, at least the ones I've heard, Chosen of Khorne and Perfection are both examples of this.

[Chaeron]

 

 

I NEED the Black Library to keep pumping out awesome content, because otherwise what do I have?  :crysintoMarkVhelmet: 

 

Really doesn't seem like they're ever going to stop - as the stable of writers increases, and as writers become more prolific - I think generally, there'll be a positive upwards trend. eBooks and short stories make it even more accessible, and in time as suggested, no doubt financially more appealing. At worst, you can gorge yourself on fan-fiction right?

[Hephaesteus]

First up, spoilerly spoilers. I am holding the baby and it is 5am, so can't face making spoiler text!

 

I nearly started a topic similar to this a little while ago. I just finished Vulkan lives and thought to myself: 'The Horus Heresy seems to have slowed down, and the story isn't moving along much.'

So I looked at my folder marked HH on my fruit branded black mirror (I started buying ebooks as they are easier to hold a baby in one arm and read with the other!) to back up my nerd rage and found;

- Fear to Tread. Not as good as I hoped, but fine. Definitely moves the story on, and the words Erebus, face, off!

- Shadows of Treachery. Loved it.

- Angel Exterminatus. Great, definitely moves the story along.

- Betrayer. Awesome stuff, what a second daemon primarch in 2 books?

- Mark of Calth. Was ok.

- Vulkan Lives. The end annoyed me, it felt tacked on and didn't match the rest of it.

- Unremembered Empire. Thought it was great again, ties a lot together and sets it off again.

 

So then I am left with the fact I didn't like the way Vulkan Lives ended, and Mark of Calth was ok. Out of 7 books. 'Well, blow me,' I thought, 'I was wrong, the story is moving along at a pretty good pace. Balls, there goes my rant.' So the rant I just wrote never got written. Until now, where I wrote it. Yay the Internet!

 

The only thing I can put my finger on then, is that I miss the coming soon section on BL showing me what to expect in the next 6-12 months so I can plan my reading; and I can't really write a topic about that!

 

Edit: I am half way through Pandorax though, and it is pants. If the 'coming soon' section was clearer, then maybe I would have avoided it in preparation for more HH before/around Christmas.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I was actually surprised when I did a re-reading of Prince of Crows and found that we had indeed actually hit the three year mark with nobody noticing.

 

I think, me personally, I would like it if they did two or three books a year that advanced the Heresy, while releasing short stories and anthologies that built up the rest of it.

 

This is a galactic war after all. The job of writing down its entirety will never be finished.

[wtwhizz]

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 15:25, said:

Quote

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content.

I get what you're trying to say, dude, but the problem here is that what WHK is saying is the actual truth, and what you're saying are your preferences, taken as fact. The fact you'd consider his well-realised and detailed explanation of the situation as "fanboys are gonna fanboy" is pretty tawdry, and beneath a decent level of discussion. (Insert "Tsk!" here.)

But WHK is right: there's no slowing down in novel releases - there are just more releases in other formats as well. There are more writers than ever (significantly more...) producing much, much more content. That's the fact. Novels aren't slowed down because people are doing other things. There's not a stringent production space that can only handle X number of releases and for every audio drama and short story, you've got a novel going unwritten. The novels are still getting written; more than ever, in fact. And some writers aren't novelists, or are naturally better at (or just prefer) writing in those other formats. That's where their interests lie.

And as for prices, all I can comment on there is that in terms of regular hardbacks, trade paperbacks, and mass-market paperbacks (released in hardcopy or eBook) their prices may look insane compared to discount retailers, but in terms of the actual book trade / bookstores / traditional publishing, their prices are pretty much in-line with the industry standard. If you're objecting to a collectors/premier format (as you were) that's one thing, but you can't compare that to traditional book/eBook pricing, as that's a false comparison. The non-collectors/premier versions exist, priced mostly in line with other books.

So I wouldn't worry too much, Whizz. If you want the novels, they're not going anywhere. Quality will vary in any demographic, and with more and more writers the quality will spike and dip depending on author talent and reader taste, but it's not indicative of a wider trend in BL's production.

Hope this was at least slightly reassuring.

Ave Deus Mechanicus! ADB is scolding me! Should I run and hide or take it like a man? Gah! To the warp with it, I'll give it a go. (My brother who is also a big War40k fan says I should tell you hey, who do you think you are? Dan Abnett? I chortled.)

My fanboys are gonna fanboy comment was meant sarcastically because of his tone, which was quite rude. Notice I didn't come back and lay into him and go all CAPSLOCKFURY. I just find it amusing that on an online forum some people's opinions are just "crude brush strokes" of opinions while other people's opinions are Imperial fething Truth.

If we're gonna start epeening and taking one persons opinions over another, I've been reading BL books since before most of the folks here even heard of Warhammer 40k. Including you. I started out on Inferno issues and never looked back. I still look back fondly on the halcyon days of Ian Watson and the greatest ever Warhammer 40k writer, one Mr. Barrington J. Bayley and the Eye of Terror. (Seriously, no one has even come close to his depiction of Chaos, the Warp, the Eye, etc.; hell no one has really even tried) So I know a little bit about what the BL has been doing over its run so far. Unlike others here, I don't look down my nose at others' opinions while I stroke my neck beard because I feel I have more of a claim on whose opinions are worthwhile.

All of that being said, what were his points that were so earth shattering in their truth and refutation of my argument? He (and you) argue that the rate of novels hasn't decreased. I disagree. I'd love for someone to tally up the numbers so we could really get to the bottom of it, but that seems a stretch. He argues that the audio books are just a little side project and don't interfere with novels being written. Meh. That's debatable. What isn't debatable is that the audio books are priced like full novels yet are rather short. I will concede that if people are fine with paying that, that's up to them. He argues that short stories aren't taking over BL's website. Honestly, this one is laughable. Come on guys. Come on. We're all fans here. We all want to see Warhammer 40k succeed. Let's be honest. This short story stuff has gotten out of hand. Especially at the prices they're going for. Games Workshop has always been known for a little (ok, a lot) of nickel and diming their fans, but it's gotten a bit ridiculous, right? The IP stuff with Blizzard is really neither here nor there in regards to the BL so no need to go down that road.

So really what happened was I stated an opinion and his response was "Nuh-uh! I'm right! You're wrong!" Then you take offense at a sarcastic remark and want to scold me for it and then go on to act like the stuff he said was beyond reproach? Oh boy. The Intertrons. Never a dull moment.

Anyhoo, let's go take a gander at the BL website. It's going to illuminate another problem I failed to mention in my original post. So, I've clicked on the BL main site and then I've clicked on Warhammer 40,000 along the top bar. It brings me to the main page of the Warhammer 40k stuff for sale (not Heresy mind you) and this is what I see:

- Three whole novels! Though one of them is a short story anthology only being released as an ebook. But hey, I like those, so points for BL. Though it's $13. I get inflation and everything, but by the Emperor's Balls, there's not even a real publishing cost associated with ebooks. There's absolutely no paper or ink involved. I used to be able to buy a novel that was made out of a murdered tree for 6-8 bucks. Now I don't even have to have a tree murdered to get my bolter porn fix and it's more expensive? I guess I still need this explained. Are electricity costs that expensive? Keeping the laptop powered is that much of a burden? Anyway, I digress. Onward!

- Ten short story ebooks Three dollars a pop. Oh Lordy. I remember the first one of these I actually tried out. It was written by Abnett. It was an Iron Snake out on a mission. He was kicking ass against a planet of orks all by his lonesome. I had some serious chub action going on. Then it ended after one page. I can't really remember much of what happened for the few minutes after that, but my computer was destroyed and my Dachshund was hiding in fear under the covers....

- Two audio books Actually this is surprising. I thought there was going to be more of these. Though, again, $17 for a standard one and $40 for one of Pandorax. Ho-lee high explosive rounds, Batman. Did the worldwide economic downturn just not hit Great Britain? Are you monocle wearing, cheerio greeting, tea sipping loons all living the high life?

And now we get to my previously forgotten point. . .

- Five re-releases of old books

So, as the BL has been doing for awhile now, they're trying to make their bones off of old content. I get wanting to have this material available for newer converts, but more and more it's seeming like it's just there to cover up their lack of exciting new content. Just my crude brush stroke of an opinion, mind you. I don't have access to the Fact Vault deep beneath Olympus Mons or anything, so be kind, please.

Now, if we scroll on over to Page 2 what do we find? 21, yes, 2-1 short story ebooks, one novel, and one re-lease as an Omnibus. God-Emperor preserve us in our hour of need...

In summary, I did rant a bit in my OP, but it was mainly at GW's sorry business practices which is a valid criticism I think almost everyone here would agree with. WHK annoyed me with his tone, but I let it go outside of one silly sarcastic remark which you then jumped on me for. Seemed a bit much IMH opinion, but hey, obviously that isn't worth much. Unless I turned it into an ebook, amirite?

I enjoy your work, sir, and my money helps keep your kids fed. Cut me some slack. I agree to disagree. No hard feelings to anyone involved either living or hanging out in Space Marine limbo waiting for Ze Final Battle! Please find Dan and feed him some steroids or something so I can get more GG novels. Please write more stuff on Khârn. You did a great job with him in Betrayer. Though the whole Erebus gets out of jail free card is annoying. So after you see Dan go see the high up mucky mucks at GW and tell them you're demanding to be able to seriously and for reals this time guys kill off major characters in the canon. K? K. Hugs and kisses. Unless you're secretly a genestealer. Then maybe just a handshake with one of your lower arms. Oh, damn. Claws. Crap. Ya know? Let's nix the handshake, too. Maybe just send postcards to each other on the holidays or something. Cheers mate! (Or is that Australian? I always get them mixed up.)

[Conn Eremon]

Thing you have to realize, though, is that if you took away the ten short stories, took away the two audio books, took away the five re-releases, you'd be left with three new novels. Not mire, not less, the exact same number.

 

That's the thing. None of this side stuff detracts from the basic novels. Those are still being released on the same basic schedules as before. Everything else is just being added to the top, not shoving original stuff out to make room. It's all extra.

[wtwhizz]

Thing you have to realize, though, is that if you took away the ten short stories, took away the two audio books, took away the five re-releases, you'd be left with three new novels. Not mire, not less, the exact same number.

 

That's the thing. None of this side stuff detracts from the basic novels. Those are still being released on the same basic schedules as before. Everything else is just being added to the top, not shoving original stuff out to make room. It's all extra.

 

I refuse to believe this.  Just like I refuse to believe the Emperor is a dolt and a bad dude like the lore is starting to make him out to be.  You heretics can proselytize at me all you want.  I'm not giving myself over to Chaos.  Unless I get to be part of the Thousand Sons.  Why?  Because magic.  That's why.

 

Good day, sir!

[Conn Eremon]

You can refuse to believe all you want, but if someone who is more aware of the reality of it tells us it is so, don't expect anyone else to believe you or take you seriously.

[wtwhizz]

You can refuse to believe all you want, but if someone who is more aware of the reality of it tells us it is so, don't expect anyone else to believe you or take you seriously.

 

Way too many Serious Business Marines on these fan forums. 

[Wade Garrett]

 

You can refuse to believe all you want, but if someone who is more aware of the reality of it tells us it is so, don't expect anyone else to believe you or take you seriously.

Are we still talking about Black Library...or accepting the Word of Lorgar as the one true way that leads to salvation? (twirls mustache, brandishes daemon crozius).

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

You can refuse to believe all you want, but if someone who is more aware of the reality of it tells us it is so, don't expect anyone else to believe you or take you seriously.

Way too many Serious Business Marines on these fan forums.

Or you take people online too seriously.

 

Wade, I'm not sure I understand the difference.

[Chaeron]

I think that some people may have unrealistic expectations of the time it takes to write a book...

[Pavement Artist]

If you felt my tone was rude then i apologise, but i would suggest growing some thicker skin.

 

I made my comments based on what i understand of the industry, tied in with what evidence i see in terms of what is on the shelves and also listed on the website. It just so happens to be that my opinion seemed to chime with ADB's, which is a relief, if only for the fact it indicates that i wasn't completely off kilter.

 

My main point of contention with your opinion was that you were mistaking "Black library are producing content in forms of media i dislike", with "Black Library is putting out less content".

[wtwhizz]

 

 

 

You can refuse to believe all you want, but if someone who is more aware of the reality of it tells us it is so, don't expect anyone else to believe you or take you seriously.

Way too many Serious Business Marines on these fan forums.

Or you take people online too seriously.

 

Wade, I'm not sure I understand the difference.

 

/facepalm