Something wrong with BL books...?

[wtwhizz]

According to the internet, there have been 27 novels and novel sized short story collections in the series so far. If you go by paperback or hardback release date, there were:

• 3 in 2006
• 3 in 2007
• 3 in 2008
• 2 in 2009
• 3 in 2010
• 3 in 2011
• 5 in 2012
• 5 in 2013 (so far.)

Make of that what you will.

 

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

 

I had a nice rant and everyone had to go and try to spoil it.  Sheesh.

 

Though really, I think a large portion of it was directed at GW's bad business practices.  I think WHK and others latched onto the "less content" part because that was easier to argue against.  

 

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released.  I liked them a bunch.  The Khan and his Scars finally get some love.  I thought it was well written and interesting.  I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG!  We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress.  It was great.  Thoroughly enjoyable.  

 

Now, these stories were $3 a pop.  There were 12 of them.  I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right?  I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel.  The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.  

 

You want to know why 40K doesn't get the same attention and followings that other stuff does?  Well, part of it is that they're based out of the UK and not here in the States, but the main reason is because it's exorbitantly expensive to get into the hobby.  Hell, I tried making a go at the tabletop game for a while.  Couldn't convince many folks to shell out their good arms and legs to get the stuff needed to join me.  As far as the BL goes, the invention of the ebook was supposed to make reading easier and cheaper.  Less publishing costs, quicker publishing times, etc. which leads to better things for the customers.  That has happened almost everywhere else in book land.  Except GW/BL is using it as an excuse to put us all in the poor house.

 

I just hope ADB, Chris Wraight, and these other guys are getting an increased share of the profits off these things.  I'd hate to think they're still being paid normal percentages when the BL doesn't even kill any trees to get their work out there and then on top of that they jack up the price.

[Ammonius]

I just hope ADB, Chris Wraight, and these other guys are getting an increased share of the profits off these things.  I'd hate to think they're still being paid normal percentages when the BL doesn't even kill any trees to get their work out there and then on top of that they jack up the price.

Amen to that. I share your opinion that authors I like  should get paid more, so obviously this is now a fact :)

[Knight of the Raven]

Isn't the similar price of books and ebooks due to a different VAT for each of them?

[Chaeron]

Don't forget, Scars will be published as a novel early next year. I think it was just an experiment on their part - and it sounded as if it went reasonably positively!

[facmanpob]

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released.  I liked them a bunch.  The Khan and his Scars finally get some love.  I thought it was well written and interesting.  I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG!  We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress.  It was great.  Thoroughly enjoyable.  

 

Now, these stories were $3 a pop.  There were 12 of them.  I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right?  I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel.  The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

[Kol Saresk]

I have a thing against ebooks. My phones the only thing I can read them on and the screen is too small. But these hardbacks are going through stuff my paperbacks have and are coming out on top. And the artwork? Personally I'm liking them. :) But due to the price I usually either saved in advance or, like I'm doing right now, saving for after the release.

[Chaeron]

 

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released.  I liked them a bunch.  The Khan and his Scars finally get some love.  I thought it was well written and interesting.  I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG!  We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress.  It was great.  Thoroughly enjoyable.  

 

Now, these stories were $3 a pop.  There were 12 of them.  I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right?  I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel.  The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

 

My girlfriend offered the use of her eReader at the time if I wanted to download them in series and read them, and I weighed up the cost and thought I'd prefer to have the collected version at the end of it in book form. It's a matter of choice - people bizarrely feel that they're obliged to purchase things the moment they're put out, griping at the price as they go.

 

We're all well acquainted with their policy and the manner in which things are produced, do what you choose within your means.

 

[Veteran Sergeant]

Back to the original question (gasp), writing a novel is hard work. Even with a good idea, and a solid outline, there's still the large task of putting words to paper. The Twilight series, for example, is awful. Almost no redeeming value past the sheer marketing ability to sell bad fiction in huge volumes. But still, it's impressive that the author was able to write that many complete books.

 

The reality is, 40K is license fiction in an extremely bizarre universe of cartoon characters. These characters aren't easy to write well because most of them aren't very good characters to begin with. So you're going to attract a certain demographic of authors, and not all of them are going to be award winning. If the plots are full of holes, and the characters superficial, it's probably not because the author didn't try hard enough. It's probably because there's a reason Ernest Hemingway or Kurt Vonnegut didn't write superhero comic books, but there are still a ton of those contemporary to those authors. The Black Library isn't staffed with this generation's F. Scott Fitzgerald or Joseph Conrad. Look at the bibliography for some of these guys. Several of them are churning out 3-4 full length novels a year (many writing for more than just TBL), plus other side work. You're not going to get Brave New World (well, unless you read the Tau Codex). It's not an insult to them. It's just what they do. Sometimes I wish I had the patience to write novels. I write stuff on a daily basis at work, and while most of it is published, none of it is going to sit next to anyone famous on a digital shelf one day. ;)

 

If you're enjoying the books, that's all that matters. Consume them for what they are. This generation's long-form pulp fiction. But if you're looking for modern classics, you may want to look elsewhere. These are stories about a protagonists living in a galaxy full of interstellar space-churches, laser guns, WW1-style tanks, giant wolf cavalry, and fighting against Cockney accented Mad Max cosplayers, H.R. Giger knockoffs, Tolkien/Green Goblin/bondage festish hybrids, and the Terminator franchise.

[Wade Garrett]

I don't think Black Library wants to employ the next Hemingway.

 

The quality of each individual novel would go up, but I think the drop in quantity due to the author being a suicidal drunk must be factored in as well.

[marvmoogy]

Ok- I found some spare time recently and have got back on the HH train with A Thousand Sons.  I'm 300 pages in and think the magic has returned!

[Veteran Sergeant]

I don't think Black Library wants to employ the next Hemingway.

 

The quality of each individual novel would go up, but I think the drop in quantity due to the author being a suicidal drunk must be factored in as well.

I think Hemingway could write great stories for 40K. The only thing he really did poorly was write dialog for women and romances. Not much of either of those in 40K.  ;)

[A D-B]

I don't think Black Library wants to employ the next Hemingway.

The quality of each individual novel would go up, but I think the drop in quantity due to the author being a suicidal drunk must be factored in as well.

I think Hemingway could write great stories for 40K. The only thing he really did poorly was write dialog for women and romances. Not much of either of those in 40K.

A sad truth.

[helterskelter]

 

 

 

I don't think Black Library wants to employ the next Hemingway.

The quality of each individual novel would go up, but I think the drop in quantity due to the author being a suicidal drunk must be factored in as well.

 

I think Hemingway could write great stories for 40K. The only thing he really did poorly was write dialog for women and romances. Not much of either of those in 40K.  ;)

 

A sad truth.

though you have gone a little way to rectifying this which I personally enjoyed as a sub plot in your night lords trilogy

[wtwhizz]

 

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released.  I liked them a bunch.  The Khan and his Scars finally get some love.  I thought it was well written and interesting.  I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG!  We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress.  It was great.  Thoroughly enjoyable.  

 

Now, these stories were $3 a pop.  There were 12 of them.  I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right?  I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel.  The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

 

You are so right, dude.  Heaven fething forbid I actually support 40k and hope the BL's business practices improve.  I should just deny myself the pleasure of new 40k material and sit on my hands doing, wait, doing what again?  Oh yeah, hoping their business practices improve.

 

Since when has this become the accepted viewpoint?  That if you pay for something you have no right to complain about it?  I thought it was always the other way around.  The customer is always right.  If you buy something, commit yourself to something, etc. you have the right to complain if it isn't up to snuff.  You vote, you get to complain about the politicians, etc and so forth.  This new nonsense of "hey, you bought it!  it sucks!  you deal with it!" is what is truly ridiculous.

 

My electricity bills are sky high, too.  I don't cut it off and sit cold and blind in my house just to make a point.  I angrily shake my fist at the energy provider and call my representative and try getting some legit competition back in the market. 

 

Besides, what do you really think would happen if we all just stop buying overpriced BL stuff?  They'd just shutter the BL.  Poor ADB here would be forced to write Warcraft novels.  And we'd all be out any decent 40k stuff except for the once in a blue moon video game.  It's like this story I read on Monday from here in the States.  Some workers were striking against the trendy deli-type shop where they worked in NYC.  What happened?  The shop fired them all by email and said they were going to close for a couple of months to do a remodel and update their menu. 

[Phoebus]

Where Scars is concerned, I sent a friendly e-mail asking if there was any intent to allow folks who bought the serialized version to download a single eBook file simply for the sake of neatness.  Yeah, I know, it's a First World Problem, but I hate having 12 eBook files when I could have a single one.

 

Heck, I don't even expect access to the "enhanced" eBook version!  :)

[Kol Saresk]

I doubt they will. They'd pretty much have to upgrade to the enhanced to make the purchase equal and considering the "You should be lucky we do anything for you" attitude the facebook team has, I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening.

[Chaeron]

I'd perhaps mistakenly assumed that would naturally happen - just seems logical and fair to those who've bought it week to week.

[Conn Eremon]

Though I know it isn't the same thing, you could get Calibre to convert the files into something you can edit together.

[Phoebus]

These characters aren't easy to write well because most of them aren't very good characters to begin with. So you're going to attract a certain demographic of authors, and not all of them are going to be award winning.

That's faulty logic, though. While characters from pre-established background material do often make an appearance in Warhammer 40k novels, the authors themselves are not under any obligation to write from their perspective. In practice, the status quo is exactly the opposite of what you propose. Graham McNeil's most successful (and enduringly popular) early novel, Storm of Iron, features a completely original cast of Iron Warriors and Imperials. Until Courage and Honour, his Ultramarine novels had short cameos of Calgar and focused almost primarily on, again, an original cast. Abnett's cast of characters in the Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn, and Ravenor series is likewise original.

 

Probably the biggest problem I can imagine for an author working within this genre would be the Primarchs who, admittedly, were rather bizarre and caricature-ish before the Horus Heresy series kicked off. It didn't help that at least two of them were telegraphed from historical/cultural stereotypes and another one had a name that was directly borrowed from a dead poet and had a ridiculous "meaning" stapled to it. Do you think it's a coincidence that authors like Abnett, Dembski-Bowden, and Wright have been busting their ass trying to expand on certain primarchs and make them more alive, logical, and interesting?

 

But if you're telling me that Warhammer 40k characters are, by default, not good no matter how you write them, let's agree to disagree right now. Frankly, I question why anyone would maintain interest in a genre if that was their impression. It strikes me as outright masochistic.

 

It's probably because there's a reason Ernest Hemingway or Kurt Vonnegut didn't write superhero comic books, but there are still a ton of those contemporary to those authors. The Black Library isn't staffed with this generation's F. Scott Fitzgerald or Joseph Conrad. Look at the bibliography for some of these guys. Several of them are churning out 3-4 full length novels a year (many writing for more than just TBL), plus other side work. You're not going to get Brave New World (well, unless you read the Tau Codex). It's not an insult to them. It's just what they do.

Brother, you're getting into a topic that's much bigger than the 40k property and Black Library. The science fiction and fantasy genres, period, had been viewed in a hostile manner by much of the literary world going back for the better part of a century now. That didn't mean they were right, though. Only comparatively recently have critics begun to acknowledge the unfairly narrow view with which they judged the genre. The same applies to comic books, though within a more recent timeline. Mind you, I'm not arguing that every sci-fi or fantasy novel or every comic book was a serious work of literature; I'm pointing out how disingenuous it was for serious literary critics to dismiss entire genres when the same individuals were quite ready to acknowledge that the majority of fiction, period wasn't worthy of acclaim.

 

Point being, if you want to argue that authors by and large prefer writing their own original material as opposed to within a "sandbox" setting, fair enough. I patently disagree with the idea that the science fiction fantasy genres - either in the purely written or sequential arts media - inherently drive off top talents. The unfair label they were saddled with discouraged talented individuals decades ago, true, but that is no longer the case.

 

If you're enjoying the books, that's all that matters. Consume them for what they are. This generation's long-form pulp fiction. But if you're looking for modern classics, you may want to look elsewhere. These are stories about a protagonists living in a galaxy full of interstellar space-churches, laser guns, WW1-style tanks, giant wolf cavalry, and fighting against Cockney accented Mad Max cosplayers, H.R. Giger knockoffs, Tolkien/Green Goblin/bondage festish hybrids, and the Terminator franchise.

Nah, this where we really disagree. There is absolutely no reason why a customer should accept mediocrity as the baseline for what he or she enjoys. There is no reason why this genre needs to be pulp entertainment. There's a reason why the better-selling Black Library authors increasingly steer away from the more banal stereotypes of the setting and stick with the themes and concepts that make for good stories that best represent the inherent drama and conflict of 40k.

[BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos]

 

The Heresy Series is beginning to frustrate me because it doesn't seem to be moving forward with the plot. I realise the fans want every Legion to have it's day, but I feel the overall story is suffering.

 

They say a good story should have a beginning, middle and end. We had a great beginning with the Loken trilogy, and while the middle has been generally good it is starting to drag, I am beginning to wonder if Horus is ever going to get to Terra (yes we all know he does eventually).

 

The point I am trying to make is that you can have too much of a good thing, and even in the better novels that I've read recently I feel like the over arching plot, which moved forward so well early on, is now just treading water, and that leaves me somewhat dissatisfied.

 

Keep in mind that during the events of the HH, many things were happening simultaneously....just spread out over many books.  The "plot" is far grander than a single book in the series but from the perspective of the known universe at the same time.  The books are individually showcasing specific segments of that universal timeline.

Totally - the thing with the Heresy is that before the BL series came along, the only parts of it which were particularly well known were the "beginning" (Istvaan, Prospero, Calth, the prior chastisement of the Word Bearers) and, of course, the end (Siege of Terra, Golden Throne, Guilliman's administrative antics, flight of the traitor legions into the Eye, the Lion's pleasant little chat with Luther, etc.) While these are all events which have been (or will be) fleshed out considerably in narrative form, it's that nebulous middle which really gives the authors a chance to flex their creativity, give each faction their due, and expand the world and mythology of 30/40K. Yes, the Heresy is a foundational event with a beginning, middle, and end. But it was also a long, massive, pan-galactic conflict of omnicidal proportions. Given that kind of scope, it's as much a determinate story as it is an expansive setting full of untold perspectives, intrigues, and interlocking parts. Whether this is a good or a bad thing - I find - just kind of depends on the book. When I read something like "Scars" or "Betrayer" I'm happy that there's an unexplored middle in which these books can take place. When I read something like "Vulkan Lives" I think "whelp, this is bloat. Just get to bloody Terra already."

[facmanpob]

 

 

 

 

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released.  I liked them a bunch.  The Khan and his Scars finally get some love.  I thought it was well written and interesting.  I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG!  We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress.  It was great.  Thoroughly enjoyable.  

 

Now, these stories were $3 a pop.  There were 12 of them.  I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right?  I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel.  The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

 

 

 

You are so right, dude.  Heaven fething forbid I actually support 40k and hope the BL's business practices improve.  I should just deny myself the pleasure of new 40k material and sit on my hands doing, wait, doing what again?  Oh yeah, hoping their business practices improve.

 

Since when has this become the accepted viewpoint?  That if you pay for something you have no right to complain about it?  I thought it was always the other way around.  The customer is always right.  If you buy something, commit yourself to something, etc. you have the right to complain if it isn't up to snuff.  You vote, you get to complain about the politicians, etc and so forth.  This new nonsense of "hey, you bought it!  it sucks!  you deal with it!" is what is truly ridiculous.

 

My electricity bills are sky high, too.  I don't cut it off and sit cold and blind in my house just to make a point.  I angrily shake my fist at the energy provider and call my representative and try getting some legit competition back in the market. 

 

Besides, what do you really think would happen if we all just stop buying overpriced BL stuff?  They'd just shutter the BL.  Poor ADB here would be forced to write Warcraft novels.  And we'd all be out any decent 40k stuff except for the once in a blue moon video game.  It's like this story I read on Monday from here in the States.  Some workers were striking against the trendy deli-type shop where they worked in NYC.  What happened?  The shop fired them all by email and said they were going to close for a couple of months to do a remodel and update their menu.

 

 

I said it was my opinion, so I don't expect anyone else to agree with it. You have clearly decided that you will buy everything immediately, then complain about the cost, whereas I wait for the cheaper versions to come out and therefore don't have to get myself worked up about it. What do I do in the meantime? Well, there is no meantime, as I'm still reading other books.

 

With regard to your "customer is always right" comments and your analogy with your electricity bill, if you read my post I didn't suggest you boycott Black Library, merely that you buy the cheaper version of the books (paperback/ebook rather than hardback/enhanced ebook).

 

Finally, I'm not sure your analogy with the deli really has any validity in this discussion, as we are not talking about a writer's strike, we are talking about the cost of fiction from Black Library. But, to run with it for a moment, what would I do if Black Library shut? I would probably catch up on the Iain Banks and Alastair Reynolds books I still haven't got round to reading, by which stage ADB and Dan Abnett would have released freelance novels that I could read. You should try Embedded by Dan Abnett, it is really rather good.

 

Anyway, you did rather seem to take offense with my post, which is up to you, but I would suggest rereading it more closely as your response indicated that you misunderstood some of my points.

 

EDIT - Oh and something I forgot to mention regarding your deli comments - in the UK it is illegal to be dismissed as a result of industrial action so long as they follow some very simple guidelines regarding balloting and informing the employer. In the case you mentioned, they could easily have taken their employer to a tribunal for unfair dismissal, as the 'closing down for a few months' line is as transparent as they come.

[marvmoogy]

Ok, I know I'm not a MOD, just the lowly OP, but, here is my OP:

 

Since I got back into the hobby this time last year, I have also got into BL books.  I'm up to A Thousand Sons in the HH series and have read Ravenwing, Deathwatch, The Purginf of Kalidus and Titanicus from the 40k world.

 

I love reading them but feel somewhat disappointed every time I finish one.  Take Deathwatch, for example.  I picked it up and just couldn't put it down - I practically finished it in 2 days.  Even so, it just didn't satisfy me.

 

Does anyone else always feel a little bit cheated after finishing a BL book?  By cheated, I mean that the authors could have made so much more of the book.  The plot could be thicker, the characters developed in more depth, more attention given to big events?

 

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh as I genuinely enjoy the books...but I always want more!

 

If anyone has read any Tom Clancy, then this what I'm talking about.  In The Sum of All Fears, the guy spends an entire chapter describing what happens in the first few seconds of an nuclear explosion....A WHOLE CHAPTER!  I'd love that level of detail in a 40k / HH book.....anyone with me?

 

It feels like we have strayed a bit from this when we are talking about Delis and Electricity bills....

[Conn Eremon]

Not to be contrary or argumentative, just expressing an alternative opinion as valid as any other, but I now will probably never read Sum of All Fears.

 

Personally, I prefer it when authors don't go that far into detail. Authors like GRR Martin, with their lavish attention to food, or Stephen King spending whole pages describing the layout of a single room, kind of get on my nerves. But only because of my preferred reading style. The authors are good, and in some cases I swallow that irritation and just read them because they are good.

 

But I am a skim reader. I like to let my own imagination fill in the blanks. A few sentences describing the room, concentrating on the aspects of it that are relevant to the piece, is all I want. I want my imagination to do the rest. I am aware of that preference's faults, like missing something that might be important. But I also like to reread, and I will get it all eventually.

[Kol Saresk]

Not to be contrary or argumentative, just expressing an alternative opinion as valid as any other, but I now will probably never read Sum of All Fears.

Personally, I prefer it when authors don't go that far into detail. Authors like GRR Martin, with their lavish attention to food, or Stephen King spending whole pages describing the layout of a single room, kind of get on my nerves. But only because of my preferred reading style. The authors are good, and in some cases I swallow that irritation and just read them because they are good.

But I am a skim reader. I like to let my own imagination fill in the blanks. A few sentences describing the room, concentrating on the aspects of it that are relevant to the piece, is all I want. I want my imagination to do the rest. I am aware of that preference's faults, like missing something that might be important. But I also like to reread, and I will get it all eventually.

Like Santa Clause wearing Chainmail. Just let that image sink in.

[Stormborn]

The mention of George R R Martin made me Imagine what it would be like if he was writing the HH novels.  That was scary one book every 10 - 15 years.

 

My only problem with BL is that they appear to have done away with the HH mass market paperbacks.  Scumbags!  They fit perfectly in the pocket of my bag and I can read them on the train.  I know I could buy ebooks but I like a book its tactile and if you drop it you only lose your page and there are very few people who steal books.