Ironmonger Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 I finally read the Primarchs Bk and have a question regarding who the Lion was speaking to at the end of the story. Was he having a conversation with the Tuchulcha Sphere or a Watcher in the Dark. Being a DA fan, I was shocked when the story line revealed that he was aware of the goings on back on Caliban. Also although I am not a big Ultra Marine fan but why is the Lion so concerned about about what Roboute Gulliman is up to? Did I miss some piece of fluff where the great Gulliman is up to no good? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 The Lion was talking to a Watcher iirc, and the Lion trusts no one, and is suspicious of Guillimans empire building whilst the Crusade continues. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3448696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 The Lion is stubborn and paranoid, so he doesn't just mistrust Guilliman, he refuses to accept any change/leadership above that of the Emperor's. Of course we don't really know exactly what Guilliman's plans are or what was revealed, so it's possible the Lion had a legitimate concern. However, it's dubious about the Lion being correct in his cynicism considering just how much we know of Sanguinius and Guilliman, since the two working together is probably a good sign. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3448697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 Though I agree with you on the Lion's paranoia, it doesn't seem like Sanguinius will enjoy working with Guilly all that much. Possibly because Guilliman's rational ways will clash with Sanguinius' stone-set ideals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3448723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 The Lion does not trust Roboute's motives, predominantly he sees Guillieman as wanting to be the next Emperor in the worst case scenario or, in the best case scenario, being willing to sacrifice Terra and the Emperor in order to beat Horus. Jonson, as far as he is concerned there will never be an Emperor other than the Big E on the throne and he will see the entire galaxy burn before Horus gets the throne. It is this attitude that explains why he considers Guillieman to be a fool/traitor/both. As for who he is talking to, it is a watcher. As for him knowing, I kind of like it. He's the only Primarch willing to sacrifice his Homeworld at this stage to save the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3448750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarSpirit Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 Yeah i love that about him, yes he's a mistrustful and paranoiac man but he can't be pointed at fault on his loyalty. He knows of luther buthe's willing toletcaliban falls to save big E and the emperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3448828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 He knows Luther's going down the traitor path? Wasn't aware of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3448879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironmonger Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 Having recently re read Falling Angels. I have to say that Luther's path to the darkside is complex yet predictable. I have no doubt that the Lion knew what was in Luther's heart, yet he let him continue. That surprises me because the Lion can be cold and calculating when it comes to winning, as he dealt with Nemiel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3449171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 He knows Luther's going down the traitor path? Wasn't aware of that.Supposedly it was strongly suggested to him by Curze in Savage Weapons. I say suggested because other than "People will remember you as the Primarch who wavered", we don't really know just what Curze told him. And in The Lion, the Lion comments to the Watcher in the Dark about how he hasn't heard from Caliban in a while, but if they can't afford to check on it while the war is developing. Basically, the pieces are right in front of him, but he has yet to assemble the puzzle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3449191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 theres the mention that he will continue his path even if it costs him his Legion, implying more awareness. Kind of ends the old background, though, of him returning to Caliban and them shooting at his forces before they know anything is wrong, or before he knows something is wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3450135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Though I agree with you on the Lion's paranoia, it doesn't seem like Sanguinius will enjoy working with Guilly all that much. Possibly because Guilliman's rational ways will clash with Sanguinius' stone-set ideals. The result shows Guilliman didn't went heretic with his smaller Imperial Secundus, which even as a name states it is a part of the Imperium, simply a machine working alone in the bigger machine of the Imperium rather than a cog in order for it to function more efficiently, to have a back-up plan, to retain the Imperium and provide it with an ace in the hole etc. Other than that, I do think that Guilliman and Sanguinius would get along easily Greyall. Their means are different, but their ideal is the same me thinks. I think Sang knows the truth behind the so-blamed Guilliman and realises they want the same thing (He is like the Emperor's soul Horus says, has precognitive abilities and is a great character estimator me thinks) and I believe Guilliman trusts Sanguinius (Guilliman's trust is hard to be earned) so I think they can get along well and actually in a pleasing manner for both. That's my opinion of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3454281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 There's a big difference between sacrifice and consolidation in this case. Sanguinius and Guilliman wouldn't accept the death of the Emperor for their own glory. Instead they are stuck without the possibility to do anything other than consolidate. For now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3454383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Sang could never trade the emperor for girly man, his loyalty comes from the fear of being imperfect and tainted. He wouldn't be happy with this imperium secondus while his father still lives Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3454918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Sang could never trade the emperor for girly man, his loyalty comes from the fear of being imperfect and tainted. He wouldn't be happy with this imperium secondus while his father still lives LOL, Sanguinus was never exactly a perfectionist. That honour goes to Fulgrim. The fear of revealing the taint is very real though, but I don't think the Angel is prioritising its secret now, more like how do I get to Terra before it is too late. Again it is too early to speculate on Guilliman's plans during the heresy. Detractors will insist that he is building a second empire, supporters will say that Guilliman is merely implementing his backup plan for the Emperor's probably fall. Again, speculation. I have not read anywhere yet that Guilliman actually SAYS that the Emperor is lost and the best we can do is make sure the rest of the Imperium survives. Coming back to the Lion, again I am disappointed at the primarch, who didn't seem to get any share of his father's famour charisma in instilling loyalty. When I think of how close Sanguinus is to his sons, or even Russ and his wolves, I weep at how the Lion can marginilise a huge chunk of his legion and favour the rest. Especially Luther, who was supposedly a father figure to him who raised him out of the wild into civilisation. Ironically, there isn't any doubt now of Lion's loyalty. Only his ability to manage his legion is in doubt. Sigh..... I actually love the Dark Angels look, but I hate what's about to happen to them. Note to self, do character study on Lion like I am currently doing for Russ. AFTER I read a few more Lion related stories and books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3455011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Actually, he is able to inspire loyalty. Luther might have been the better at oratory due to being less introverted, yet it is shown that his sons are still loyal to him as his 'little brothers'. In fact, it could be argued instead of a close father-son relationship it is, instead, a relationship between brothers. That the entire DA are one brethren. On to Luther he grew jealous and spiteful of the Lion's success, both on Caliban and in the Great Crusade leading him to nearly killing Jonson. This is one explanation as to why he sent him home. Once home, the bitterness sets in coupled with learning secrets he never should have and he becomes the traitor we all know. And he then takes those on Caliban with him who are both disgruntled at the failures of the Imperial administration on Caliban tearing it apart, something Jonson probably would have been pissed at had he known and those he sways through his speaking skills to turn against the Emperor and Jonson. It is hard to defend against criticism and lies when you are absent. However, I personally subscribe to a view that Jonson wished to control the taint of Caliban, resulting from the Daemon inside Caliban, and thought only Luther would be the man to do this. But he failed to inform Luther of this properly, so the bitterness set in and Chaos used that to corrupt the leadership of Caliban and turn them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3455040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 However, I personally subscribe to a view that Jonson wished to control the taint of Caliban, resulting from the Daemon inside Caliban, and thought only Luther would be the man to do this. But he failed to inform Luther of this properly, so the bitterness set in and Chaos used that to corrupt the leadership of Caliban and turn them. That's a pretty nice way of looking at it. And nicely mirrors the Emp's failure of not telling his Sons enough of the Warp and the peris it presents while buggering off to mess about with his Webway project. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3455130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 There's a daemon inside Caliban? I knew Chaos was around, but never heard of a daemon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3455149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 I haven't read Fallen Angels. Can someone give the salient features of the book? I only read the last page and found out that the Lion was talking to another primarch for support of being the next new Warmaster, and it turned out to be Perturbo. DOH! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3455164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 I haven't read Fallen Angels. Can someone give the salient features of the book? I only read the last page and found out that the Lion was talking to another primarch for support of being the next new Warmaster, and it turned out to be Perturbo. DOH! Haven't read it in quite a while, but iirc it goes something like this..... The Lion gets wind of the Heresy, but not exactly who is involved. Knowing the location of a cache of uber-siege weapons not too distant from his current position, and realising that to win the war the heretics must lay siege to Terra, he takes a small strike fleet to secure them. Blasting their way through a blockading force, the Lion lands his troops and saves the Forge World in a masterful tactical display worthy of Rommel himself. The bad guys defeated, he makes plans to remove the siege weapons, when Perturabo turns up. Knowing his brother's ability at siegecraft, but not for a moment thinking that Perturabo would turn against the Big E, the Lion gives the siege weapons to the Iron Warriors..... doh! Cue complete distrust of all other Primarchs for ever more...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3455389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Doesn't the Lion give the weapons to Perturabo in exchange for support in a future election for Warmaster? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3455395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Quite possibly, its been a couple of years since I read it...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3455396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Doesn't the Lion give the weapons to Perturabo in exchange for support in a future election for Warmaster? He does. 2nd DA book of the HH if I recall correctly. Epic character estimation from the lion, seems cool to hand them over lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3456049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 and after that distrusts all other Primarchs. Including RG. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3456098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 In all fairness, Perturabo seems to be a straight, down to earth Primarch like few others are. It's still an incredibly shallow attitude by the Lion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3456107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 In all fairness, Perturabo seems to be a straight, down to earth Primarch like few others are. It's still an incredibly shallow attitude by the Lion That happens when your line of thought is "Hey, I have an idea: Since Pert likes and knows how to use siege weapons, let me give 'em to him since he realises I am the sh1t, what could go wrong? Traitors are nowhere to be found, so let's hand them over. There is no way he could use them for... A SIEGE OF TERRA? NOOOOOOO" Well played by the Lion, he couldn't even realise Perturabo took advantage of his arrogance (well played). If he was smarter, he could drop a line like "I'll leave them in the Imperial palace, if you want take them from there" or something the average guy would find logical anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279533-primarchs-bk-about-lion/#findComment-3456233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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