Just got done looking through Codex: Space Marine >:[

[SRSFACE]

I kept telling myself, "There's no way they'd already make a codex that's less than a year old gimp by releasing something that made everything in the whole army redundant or inferior."

 

I was wrong.

 

Literally, all we've got going for us now is Deathwing and the Sacred Banners. Their tactical squads are superior (Combat Tactics > Grim Resolve in addition to all the other wargear they can bring that we cannot), their HQ choices are better (Tigurius is effin' bonkers), and one of the things that made us special, that being the Ravenwing, both White Scars and Raven Guard do better than we do.

 

Ugh. Just, ugh. So mad right now. I don't know why I kept holding out hope they'd make a remote attempt at balancing things within this rule set seeing as it's been less than a year since 6E has came out, but nope. I was wrong. I was foolish for holding out hope because I knew in my heart it'd get shattered, but it still sucks to actually have the moment come where hopes are dashed.

 

Some of the specific things that have my jimmies in a rustle:

Their bikers are 6 less points per bike. They don't have hit and run built in to them, nor can they combat squad, and they also don't have built in teleport homers, but you can take up to 8 of them in a squad as opposed to just 6 + a land speeder. Also, the teleport homer thing, you can still give one to the Sgt. for 10 points, which is still net way cheaper.

 

The real kicker is If you run them as White Scars, they effectively gain skilled rider as well as getting +1 to the strength of their Hammer of Wrath hits. Also, remember how I said that default bikes don't have hit and run? Well, White Scars bikes do. In fact, their entire army gets it except for anything in Terminator or Centurion armor. White Scars chapter tactics let them outbike us, as well as all the other goodies regular ol' Space Marines can do.

 

Stalkers/Hunters: They are brutal and effective anti-air from what I saw. Walker durability on a tank chasis, strength 7 weapons with skyfire. They DO NOT have interceptor, though, so if the opponent doesn't have flyers they are sort of gimp. Still, they aren't really that big of point sinks. I forget the exact totals, but I believe both were cheaper than a Razorback with an upgraded gun.

 

Land Raider Redeemers dropped 5 points. They have the same wargear options stock. (If we do get an errata, I suspect ours will be brought in line just like Chaos Helbrutes were dropped from 105 to 100 to match pricing of Dreadnoughts. Here's to hoping)

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Oh look, whinging.

 

How unexpected. 

[Son of Carnelian]

"Other than the numerous advantages our bike squads have, theirs are better!"

 

"Despite the half-dozen units that are utterly unique to our codex, they've taken everything!"

[SRSFACE]

"Other than the numerous advantages our bike squads have, theirs are better!"

 

"Despite the half-dozen units that are utterly unique to our codex, they've taken everything!"

Numerous advantages that are all mitigated if someone were to run a Codex: Space Marine biker army.

 

And if by "half dozen" you mean three. Deathwing, Deathwing Knights, Black Knights. All are expensive units to field, mind you, so fielding an army themed around them tends to not be competitively advantageous. Land Speeder Vengeance and both our flyers are garbage, whereas theirs are both really awesome.

 

If they brought the costs of our units in line with their relative power, I'd have no issues. However, anything we can do save a Terminator themed list, you can do better with Codex: Space Marines. It's a fact.

[hisdudeness]

You do realize that GW stopped caring about "competitive" lists years ago and are finally fully moving toward fluff based armies.

[Brother dean]

They have a cover save buff speeder?  Plasma speeder?  Stasis and Rad Grenades/bombs that debuff your opponent?  Salvo bolters on bikes?  Plasma and Lascannons in tactical?

 

Why dont you wait to call the wahbulance untill they get on the field...

[SRSFACE]

They have a cover save buff speeder?  Plasma speeder?  Stasis and Rad Grenades/bombs that debuff your opponent?  Salvo bolters on bikes?  Plasma and Lascannons in tactical?

 

Why dont you wait to call the wahbulance untill they get on the field...

Their core units are  better, meaning if they wanted to ally in Dark Angels to just get the good stuff, they could. Trying it the other way around doesn't work as well. Our 3 best units, we're paying 40+ points a model.

 

And I've already called the wahmbulence about how bad the Land Speeder Vengeance is for it's point cost back when the codex dropped.

 

Also, my friend who's book I was looking through and I are going to play a 2k point game with regular force org rules tomorrow.

 

edit: And they do have Plasma and Lascannons in Tactical Squads.

[Fray]

Their core units are  better, meaning if they wanted to ally in Dark Angels to just get the good stuff, they could. Trying it the other way around doesn't work as well. Our 3 best units, we're paying 40+ points a model.

 

And I've already called the wahmbulence about how bad the Land Speeder Vengeance is for it's point cost back when the codex dropped.

 

Also, my friend who's book I was looking through and I are going to play a 2k point game with regular force org rules tomorrow.

 

It is disappointing, no doubt and I too am rather unhappy about how good White Scars are looking but I do think it might still be a tad early to get worked-up.  I'm not saying you or anyone else is wrong about Space Marines potentially providing stronger lists, but I think I'll wait a bit to get some games in with and against the new codex and to dissect actual games before I pass judgement.

 

That said, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts after your game tomorrow.

[Brother dean]

Exactly.  It is far too soon to fret.  And if it is true that their book exceeds ours then look at it this way.  

 

 

 

At least we arent Chaos...

 

 

Wonder how those guys are feeling with  direct counters to their one trick dragon..

 

And my LS Vengeance taught my Wolfbrother not to Rhino wall rush with his Twolves on the other side....    You only need one shot to make your points back but it is also useful as a fire magnet...  not cost effective, but useful....

[HJL]

Haha Ezekiel would beat Tigirius' ass in a fight like a 400lb gorilla vs a puppy. Tigerius is good but Ezekiel is better.

[jeremy1391]

Hmmm well they still can't out tac squad us, Dakka banner and a divination Libby beats bolter drill and the ultramarine trait.

 

Black knights are better than any bike the codex marines get

 

Dark angels still have the best terminators

 

Our vets are more versatile.

 

Our command squads can do 5 plasma or other specials whereas codex marines can't

 

We still have the best land raiders

 

We counter assault centurions with deathwing knights and will come out on top every time.

 

We have better special issue wargear (powerfield generator ftw!)

 

 

So the only advantage I'm seeing in the regular codex is dev centurions which are super expensive!

 

The stalker and hunter which are pretty lack luster and sternguard

 

Chapter tactics wise it's meh

 

Imp fist and salamanders tactics countered by divination librarians

 

White scars countered by black knights and dakka flag

 

Raven guard have fast and sneaky stuff the way they are supposed to but all our ravenwing stuff can also

 

Iron hands countered by techies with powerfields and azrael can give a squad real FNP and did I mention we have venerable land raiders?

 

Ultramarines tactics are bleh and situational

 

By and large DA will do well if they play as DA!! And not try to be a different chapter, who else can have bikes AND terminators as troops?

 

Also We still have the best chaplains! So basically codex space marines are just new and shiny so that's why everyone is all ERRRRMAAAGEREDDD SPESS MAHREENS!!! We will prevail! We are in much better shape than we were last time and we are still viable!

[skawolf]

They have a cover save buff speeder?  Plasma speeder?  Stasis and Rad Grenades/bombs that debuff your opponent?  Salvo bolters on bikes?  Plasma and Lascannons in tactical?

 

Why dont you wait to call the wahbulance untill they get on the field...

Unless you are saying that Dark Angels can take plasma cannons AND lascannons in the same tactical squad, then I don't understand that point. Why would codex marines not have either of those available to tac squads?

[Trevak Dal]

And how do you think Chaos players feel after being told that "Legion rules are too complex/hard to put in a single book" and they have chapter tactics for every single loyalist legion (and their successors)?

 

If you could buy tactical squads close combat weapons and a second special (or two heavies instead...or two special close combat weapons, or go just BP/CCW) do you think there would be any Chaos players at all?  I'd trade the megazords I don't use and didn't ask for, for some drop pods, landraider crusaders and storm ravens.

 

Loyalist obliterators and mutilators look and function better than Chaos ones.  Its times like these I take solace in the fact my Tau are awesome.

[SRSFACE]

You know, Jeremy, thanks. Those are very rational things. I think my initial rage has calmed a bit.

 

I'm still pretty mad that their basic troops are better than our basic troops, and honestly I'd gladly trade Ravenwing Attack Squads for a space marine bike squad.

 

I guess I need to point out I like a lot of stuff in our codex! It's why I play it. I love the fluff, I love the look.

And if it was points effective in line with what the equivalent space marine costs were, I wouldn't care so much. Drop the LSV down to 125 points base or up it to armor 12 in the front and back, drop the Dark Talon down to 120 points base OR buff the rift cannon somehow, drop the Nephilim Jetfighter down to 160 base OR buff it's missiles so it can actually have a chance in hell at hurting armor 12, all of my anger subsides.

 

added because the post wasn't up while I was typing this:

@Trevak Dal: I also have about 2k worth of Chaos and they are also equally terrible. Part of my anger here is just compounded Chaos player anger, too.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Echoing prior posters, I do not think they are all that better. Our army is the hardest to break still, no-one else afaik gets any form of stubborn. Our Bike armies are still better, possibly inferior to White Scars armies who are in the background the best hit and run army in the entire galaxy with the only contender being the Ravenwing. So thats not a surprise. Again, our 6 Bikers + AB + LS has been a feature over 2 codexes and made our RW unique. Nothing for SM Bikers was unexpected, what would be unexpected would be giving them RW Black Knights and LSV/Darkshroud. Plus our Bikers are even better than their counter-parts including the WS Bikes.

 

Our DeathWing are still better, which is all I feared would change to be honest. Fortunately, it has not. Sure, we lack grav weapons and Centurions (thank god) and Hunter/Stalkers but out of all those only the grav weapons are a real loss. Which can be allied in. Anything good in the SM codex can be gained through allying in if you really want it.

[Fray]

You know, Jeremy, thanks. Those are very rational things. I think my initial rage has calmed a bit.

 

I'm glad he has calmed your rage a bit but I'm not sure I'd label his points rational since some are comparing apples to oranges and some I just don't understand at all :P

 

Again though, I'm holding off passing judgement until we see some actual games and "play testing" done with rational analysis.  I definitely agree with Jeremy on his point that a good portion of the concern is the "ERRRRMAAAGEREDDD SPESS MAHREENS!!!" factor :)

[Syphid]

I agree with Jeremy on all counts except for the part about Vets...

 

If we try to specialize a DA list to match another chapter's specialization then we're most likely going to fail.  But just the same, no other chapter is going to be able to match our specializations.

[Bryan Blaire]

Nah, our Vets really are more versatile: they are all armored in TDA, have a heavy weapon that no other Terminators get access to (so far as I have seen), and can mix and match their CC and ranged options within a single unit selection. That's just our 1st Company vets, which is equivalent of C:SM TDA units, Sternguard and Vanguard.

 

And we have more Vets than those folks. Like the Black Knights. Vets on bikes, can C:SM do that? No? More versatile.

 

And then we have the lowest of Veterans, the Company Veterans, an entire category of Vet that may not be entirely useful all the time, but it's a category that no one else has access to.

 

I think we're good on the Vets front.

[The Shadow Guard]

I kept telling myself, "There's no way they'd already make a codex that's less than a year old gimp by releasing something that made everything in the whole army redundant or inferior."

I was wrong.

Literally, all we've got going for us now is Deathwing and the Sacred Banners.

Now, I think that is an exaggeration.... you need to look at the Codex as a whole not compare individual units...

Some of the specific things that have my jimmies in a rustle:

Their bikers are 6 less points per bike. They don't have hit and run built in to them, nor can they combat squad, and they also don't have built in teleport homers, but you can take up to 8 of them in a squad as opposed to just 6 + a land speeder. Also, the teleport homer thing, you can still give one to the Sgt. for 10 points, which is still net way cheaper.

The real kicker is If you run them as White Scars, they effectively gain skilled rider as well as getting +1 to the strength of their Hammer of Wrath hits. Also, remember how I said that default bikes don't have hit and run? Well, White Scars bikes do. In fact, their entire army gets it except for anything in Terminator or Centurion armor. White Scars chapter tactics let them outbike us, as well as all the other goodies regular ol' Space Marines can do.

As I said above you shouldn't be comparing unit for unit... compare army for army... Yes White Scars do apparently get all that (I haven't seen the Codex yet) but they SHOULD.... that is the essence of their chapter. I am not sure that fluffwise Ravenwing Bikers are better than White Scars... the latter are born in the saddle and their entire army is dedicated to going to abttle using massive, fast moving formations .. and the Ravenguard also are dedicated to the lightning assault in a different way...

Some of the specific things that have my jimmies in a rustle:

Stalkers/Hunters: They are brutal and effective anti-air from what I saw. Walker durability on a tank chasis, strength 7 weapons with skyfire. They DO NOT have interceptor, though, so if the opponent doesn't have flyers they are sort of gimp. Still, they aren't really that big of point sinks. I forget the exact totals, but I believe both were cheaper than a Razorback with an upgraded gun.

Land Raider Redeemers dropped 5 points. They have the same wargear options stock. (If we do get an errata, I suspect ours will be brought in line just like Chaos Helbrutes were dropped from 105 to 100 to match pricing of Dreadnoughts. Here's to hoping)

So they have stalkers and hunters and we have LS Vengeance and DarkShroud....

Nothing you have said makes me feel the least bit bothered that our Codex has been...for want of a better word nurfed!

Oh look, whinging.

How unexpected.

Let's keep the sarcasm down and try and constructively allay the fears of our battle brothers shall we?

... and everythign jeremy1391 said!!!

SG

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Yeah if the things I've seen are true there about three things that the new codex has that straight "beats out" DA.

 

a.) Sternguard - while the fluff argument can be made about veterans the Company vets not getting special issue ammo kinda sucks

 

b.) Stalker/hunter - while not great without interceptor they handle the biggest issue our codex has in the anti air department

 

c.) Stormraven and Talon - once again these two fall in the anti air really great flyers category and we may be a bit jealous because lets face it ours are not quite as good for points/efficiency etc.

 

Allies can fix this but honestly DA seem to me as a way to really test your generalship. Throughout the Codex's that seems to be the Theme. You want to play Space Marines without an auto win and ALL the toys? Try it with elite small numbers in DW. You want to try a high speed mobile army that has no real "deathstar" go RW. And of course GW is a way to show "Hey I can do PA too and beat the pants off anybody without using uber rules all the time" Yes we get the Dakkapole however all kinds of armies have that special wargear that gives them the punch.

 

Combat Tactics vs Stubborn is understandable but since the Tac Squads are all priced the same including weapons (I'm assuming this from what I've seen in Rumors) then it really comes down to your tactics. Yes Bolter Drill and Tank Hunters for Dev's is awesome but as stated we've got the uber Terminators and a few other things to offset.

 

My two cents but aside from these units things I don't see a whole lot in the Rumors that make me want to change books. I love Ironclads and Sternguard and have been slightly tempted by the Stormtalon. My Biggest reason for wanting to change books is I love the fluff for Ravenguard and Crimson Fists. But the DA were my first Chapter and well damnit the fluff is awesome I don't care who you are.

 

DoC

[Chaplain Lucifer]

And after this all we can get SM toys through allies so I think there's nothing to lose sleep about.

[Dread]

At first when the DA dex came out, I was dismayed. Since playing them for over 19 years. As I learned to play them differently than I used to, I became more content with our book.  My biggest regrets were buying the flying toaster and iron clad dread  and dressing them all up DA, then the book came out and found out can only use them in apoc. Oh well, I have them and so what, I can't use them. So it really didn't upset me when the rumors started about the C:SM and the new models, I figured they wouldn't be for us. It will be fun watching them build army after army to beat all the others, but that's where the fun is. As for the Centurians, I'm glad those smurf oblits aren't in our book.  As for allies, not for me as I only own DA, but that's just me.

 

Also, thanks Jeremy for helping this get into perspective as well as all who have posted. This is a healthy conversation.

[SRSFACE]

Combat Tactics vs Stubborn is understandable but since the Tac Squads are all priced the same including weapons (I'm assuming this from what I've seen in Rumors) then it really comes down to your tactics. 

Not disagreeing with the other things you said. Just wanted to address this issue.

 

Their tactical squads can do everything that ours can, as well as take teleport homers and have additional armory access in Gravity weapons. And because of chapter tactics, their guys tactical marines are factually better than ours in every way. Ultramarines once a game get to do something extra with their guys, Raven Guard's guys all have scout and are also Stealth on turn 1, Imperial Fist guys get to reroll misses of 1 with all bolter weapons (crazy awesome for the record), etc. etc. Their tactical marines are in every way, shape and form factually better than ours.

 

It's frustrating to me just how much the Codex: Dark Angels is really just Codex: Deathwing/Ravenwing. 7 of our 10 companies are regular space marines and fluffwise, there is no reason for them to be straight up sub-standard to Codex compliant chapters.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

but they are still stubborn...they won't break when you don't want them to do so. So what they have a trait? We knew they would have a rule like that, its better ours have Grim Resolve instead of nothing at all. Our Tacticals are still as good as the Imperial Fist ones. Even better once we take a Banner of Devastation. And thats a great tool no-one else has anything like.

[SRSFACE]

That's the thing. I *like* when my guys have their morale break in close combat when they lose, because ATSKNF lets me auto-rally which lets me turn around and plug more bolter rounds into that squad (or bolt pistol shots and then lets me assault that unit right back with the charge bonus to attacks). It also makes it hard to break away from combat if you get a squad assaulted by something they can't hurt, like a Maulerfiend or a Dreadnought, because you can never choose to automatically fail the leadership test you have to take in order to flee.

 

I have had stubborn hurt me more often than help me.

 

I don't see it as a benefit 90% of the time. Dark Angels are a shooty army for the most part, and the guys who do want to mix it up in melee are already fearless or have Hit and Run because they are designed to bail out of combat anyway.