Just got done looking through Codex: Space Marine >:[

[Master Avoghai]

Like SG I would greatly suggest not to comparing things unit by unit.

 

The codex is a whole. More over codex SM is several codex in one...

 

You point out the WS thing but :

 

- if you choose to play WS, only your 5 bike squadrons count as troops. We can play 3-4 men strong bike squadrons as troops and our AB are troops as well. So they still miss something (and I don't talk about missing an eternal warrior with AP2 sword on a jet bike with plasma cannon)

- if you choose to play WS then you choose to lose the UM traits. Everything is mutually exclusive. So you can't say that our codex is wrong because WS have bike troops and IF have tactical that may reroll 1s....it's one or the other.

 

 

I've no doubt that SM codex will be strong (after all, Vulkanwing is still fieldable...) but I doubt the things you've pointed out will really make a difference with our codex and their.

[Gillyfish]

I'm not too concerned yet. For a start, if you compare White Scars with only the Ravenwing, then yes you can see some definite strengths to what the White Scars bring to the table. But actually, that kind of specialisation seems appropriate in some ways because the Codex chapters have one very specific ability which either allows them to specialise (in the case of White Scars and Raven Guard) or gain a general buff (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists). Compare the buffed units with ours and it seems reasonable that they might be better, because the Codex Chapters end up only having that trick whereas we have lots and lots of options. Our terminators and our bikes are special and we have unique elite versions of already elite units on top of that. Our normal marines have their own trait too (granted it can be a double edged sword) and we have lots of synergies and special kit available to us which makes the Dark Angels a more varied army to use.

 

I'm probably not explaining myself very well, so consider this. A Codex marine player tells you he's playing White Scars - you'll know some of what to expect because he'd be foolish not to take advantage of his traits, so you expect bikes and a fast-paced army. You say you're playing Dark Angels but don't go into specifics - what does he expect? Pure Ravenwing, Greenwing, Deathwing a mix of two or three elements? Which special characters might we use? Do we have one of the dreaded banners or a power-field that is going to frustrate his shooting? Are we going to be faster than him or more heavily armoured or both?

 

I suppose what I'm saying is that Codex DA seems the more versatile army to me. In a one on one comparison we will certainly have some units that are worse, depending upon the traits taken, etc. But that's right, or Codex marines would just be inferior to the DA. Codex marines needed a different take to the DA, the Wolves and the BA, otherwise it would be like second edition when every variant chapter could do the same things as the Ultras, plus a few things which were better.

 

And if all else fails, you can console yourself over the fact that the Centurions are uglier than every model in our range, including the Land Speeder Vengeance! ;)

[Interrogator Stobz]

...

And if all else fails, you can console yourself over the fact that the Centurions are uglier than every model in our range, including the Land Speeder Vengeance!

That Sir, is a BIG call :P

I hear C:SM Command Squads can't take 5x Special weapons, I love my Plasma Squad. We will survive, just fix the damned Nephilms' missiles!!!

[march10k]

Yeah if the things I've seen are true there about three things that the new codex has that straight "beats out" DA.

 

 

b.) Stalker/hunter - while not great without interceptor they handle the biggest issue our codex has in the anti air department

 

 

DoC

 

I'd rather just ally in some PDF.  A psycher, a platoon of meat popsicles, and a hydra or three.  If I was scared of enemy air.  I'm not.  But I don't for a moment have any jealousy about the stalker/hunter!

[Garath]

 Haven't seen the new codex.

 

  Every SM codex that was ever released was interesting for a while-  but inferior very soon, unless played by a very skillful  player.

 

 

  I'm not going to argue SM vs DA.  The reason for this is simple.  You can take both.

 

  Ravenwing AND White scars ?  check!

 

  Deathwing and Ravenguard ? check! 

[SinnerBeta]

I don't mind if they're slightly stronger, just as long as they're different. I don't play competitively, just for fun so I don't fear DA becoming slightly weaker than the new SM, just irrelevant.

 

The only thing I'm jealous of is their Chapter Relic armour and bolter. I know those things cost an arm and a leg and aren't all that great, but I envy their the option to actually make a power armoured dakka Captain. Not only are DA supposed to be the shooty marines, I always preferred my main HQ to be a general that directs his army and blasts away with his command squad from some vantage point rather than being just a beat stick that goes into the thick of it like a Chaplin, which is also why I miss Rites of Battle on normal Captains.

[Honda]

* chuckles *, the consequences of Ophidium become manifest...

[elphilo]

Eh the only thing, and I hate to say it, that I wish we got is the Devastator Centurions. I know I know, I'll be heading to Chaplains right after I post this, but hear me out.

I think Devastator Centurions are going to be a must take in most marine armies. I think grav-cannons with the grav amps are going to be the number 1 choice for them. Oh I get re-rolls to wound/penetrate for my grav weapons? Yeah let me just get two 6s and 90% of the vehicles in the game are wrecked (since immobilizing a vehicle thats already immobilized gives an extra hull point). These weapons are going to make it almost impossible to run transports because they'll be even easier to take down. If GW's intent was to make the transport null and void, they're doing a fine job of it. Though it still won't stop me from taking a land raider. It'll just add another factor I have to keep in mind.

Now am I mad we didn't get them? No not at all. I think they're just going to be that good you're going to see them all over the place. As to the rest of the codex, other than their flyers/AA options I'm happy where we came out.

At least the disparity isn't as bad as it was last codex release

[Brother dean]

 

They have a cover save buff speeder?  Plasma speeder?  Stasis and Rad Grenades/bombs that debuff your opponent?  Salvo bolters on bikes?  Plasma and Lascannons in tactical?

 

Why dont you wait to call the wahbulance untill they get on the field...

Unless you are saying that Dark Angels can take plasma cannons AND lascannons in the same tactical squad, then I don't understand that point. Why would codex marines not have either of those available to tac squads?

 

Various RUMORS said that the blue tac squads wouldnt have all the same heavy options ours does..  Apparently it was just a rumor...

[Tiger9gamer]

I'm pretty happy, actually. I made it known i was planning to switch quite a bit here (mostly for attention ) This is pretty much the codex I wanted when I first started out, but soon gave up on even when IA 12 didnt help me win games. after an incredible losing streak, I pre-ordered the DA codex and painted all my marines to look like the GoTC and began to play games. I actually started to have fun with my games, and most of all with the Deathwing knights. Loved those guys and loved the chaplain I made along with it (by far my favorite model in my army.)

But, As I continued playing, I began to discover I needed the banner of Devastation more and more. I began to take it in a land raider every single game, finding that taking it was one of the only ways I could compete and have fun in my games, to even have a smidgin of a chance with every game. I actually became pretty sick of it. Sure it was effective, but when I can see that being the only thing I build my lists around, dropping 750pts every time I want to make a list for a game, it's pretty tiring. And I fretted over every marine loss, as the squads arn't that big.

Now this new codex marines is coming out, And i'm drooling. The entire thing is what I wanted in my Iron Knights days, all the chapters and fluff there is...

So, I decided to go play some Codex marines. Specifically, the white scars. They are basically Ravenwing if what I heard about khan was true (giving scout, stuff like that) And, with the bigger squads, I feel i can hit and run more and tackle more things effectively without staying within 6" of a(n awesome )flag. I feel that if one thing fell, my game wouldn't be ruined now.

I'm still keeping my Dark Angel book and unforgiven theme, and I'm even going to be allying in a good 500pts of DA in every game I play for bubble sillyness and Black knight awesomeness. It's not like those who switch is going to burn their DA books and never pick them up again.

So.... yea, just my 2 cents on how I feel on this whole thing. Long story short, it's a game I want to have fun with and changing to some different tactics time to time would help me have a little more fun.

Just.... wanted to get this off my chest

[Syphid]

Nah, our Vets really are more versatile: they are all armored in TDA, have a heavy weapon that no other Terminators get access to (so far as I have seen), and can mix and match their CC and ranged options within a single unit selection. That's just our 1st Company vets, which is equivalent of C:SM TDA units, Sternguard and Vanguard.

 

And we have more Vets than those folks. Like the Black Knights. Vets on bikes, can C:SM do that? No? More versatile.

 

And then we have the lowest of Veterans, the Company Veterans, an entire category of Vet that may not be entirely useful all the time, but it's a category that no one else has access to.

 

I think we're good on the Vets front.

 

I thought he was referring to Company Vets vs Sternguard/Vanguard Vets, not veterans in the general sense because he mentions Deathwing and Black Knights seperately from Vets.

[Bryan Blaire]

Right, except that's a common mistake people keep making, as if Company Veterans are "real veterans" that can be compared to Sternguard and Vanguard. They are not.

 

Company Veterans are not 1st Company, they aren't even 2nd Company. They have no equivalents in a standard Codex Chapter. To believe that they should get the benefits of upgrades equivalent to another Chapter's 1st Company Vets is a misrepresentation of both the fluff and the usage of Company Vets in the Unforgiven. If there is a situation where other Chapters need to use their Sternguard or Vanguard, the Unforgiven would call in the Deathwing (or possibly the Black Knights). Company Vets are just a slightly more capable and better equipped Tac Squad.

 

If anyone would have/should have gotten the benefit of special ammo, it would/should have been the Deathwing (or possibly the Black Knights - except the Black Knights got even better: twin-linked plasma). That's an argument that was made prior to the release of the new DA 'dex.

[SRSFACE]

Eh the only thing, and I hate to say it, that I wish we got is the Devastator Centurions. I know I know, I'll be heading to Chaplains right after I post this, but hear me out.

I think Devastator Centurions are going to be a must take in most marine armies. I think grav-cannons with the grav amps are going to be the number 1 choice for them. Oh I get re-rolls to wound/penetrate for my grav weapons? Yeah let me just get two 6s and 90% of the vehicles in the game are wrecked (since immobilizing a vehicle thats already immobilized gives an extra hull point). These weapons are going to make it almost impossible to run transports because they'll be even easier to take down. If GW's intent was to make the transport null and void, they're doing a fine job of it. Though it still won't stop me from taking a land raider. It'll just add another factor I have to keep in mind.

Now am I mad we didn't get them? No not at all. I think they're just going to be that good you're going to see them all over the place. As to the rest of the codex, other than their flyers/AA options I'm happy where we came out.

At least the disparity isn't as bad as it was last codex release

I know they look a little silly in the pictures, but I think Centurions will look pretty neat stacked up alongside other marines.

Case in point: The White Dwarf "one click collection" for Black Templar

I think they actually look pretty cool in that photo alongside the rest of that army.

The good thing is that is a really pricey squad. To run them with the Grav Guns, it's about equivalent to a land raider upgraded to be a deathwing vehicle. Why is that a good thing? Means that taking some Ultrasmurf allies to field a squad of them is pretty simple to do, you'll just have to bring one heavy support unit already in our own codex. Easily done if you're already running Deathwing as you simply declare your Land Raiders as HS rather than Dedicated Transport, or you just bring a whirlwind or predator, or Mortis Pattern Dreadnought if you go Forgeworld.

I have to admit I feel like we'll make better allies to a primary detachment of Codex: Space Marines than Codex: Space Marines would make to us. A raven guard force with assault marines and vanguard vet up the wazoo backed up by a Darkshroud makes a lot of sense. Our terminators wouldn't be troops choices, but you could still amass a single blob of them to deepstrike in unerringly near some scouts that moved up with a teleport homer, so that tactic is just as viable as within our own dex. Black Knights are also pretty easy to blob up rather than run as multiple entries.

@SinnerBeta: I'm only really jealous of the flaming sword, honestly. +3 Strength, Ap2, but has the chance of causing an AP2 bolter strength hit on the wielder if he rolls 1s (I forgot if it was to wound or to hit, or maybe it was a seperate roll you take after you land a hit, I forget). Same point cost as the Mace of Redemption, more universally useful. Getting AP2 melee weapons in our codex guarantees you'll be unwieldy and that sucks.

Also, that armor? Not worth it. It's double the points of terminator armor and the only benefits you get out of it are you can still sweeping advance and are not bulky, and once a game, you get 2++ save. That's it. The single only time I see it as a viable wargear option over terminator armor is if you want to throw it in a Librarian on a Space Marine bike (if they can even do that... I didn't check.) Captains can simply take Artificer Armor and they're already sitting on a 2+/4++ that way, and regular ol' Chaplains are simply not that great of an option.

The Salvo relic gun would be nice in the hands of an Imperial Fists player, but otherwise isn't really much to write home about. I'd rather have our trippy Storm Bolter, because not only is it always 3 shots at max range, it's AP4 as well which helps against most non-marine armies. We've also got a combi blast plasma gun which also counts as assault so you can give it to a melee-style power armor captain and still have the option to shoot then charge the squad you fired at, once a game.

[Fray]

I think Devastator Centurions are going to be a must take in most marine armies. I think grav-cannons with the grav amps are going to be the number 1 choice for them.

 

I think you're probably right about the grav-cannon + amps load-out, but aren't they only a 24" range?  They're a high point cost unit with a 2+ save and what, 2W and 5T?  They're certainly a threat but they have very similar weaknesses to low AP weapons and torrent of fire that all Terminators are vulnerable to.  Heck, their own codex is somewhat of a hard counter to them;  squad of bikers armed with grav guns and a combi-grav (i think their sarge can grab a combi) is highly mobile with 9 shots wounding on 2+ and AP2.

 

And honestly?  I hope Dev Centurions kitted with the grav combo become more common as it might mean a lower representation of MC's!

 

But, aside from that, I really want to echo what a couple people have said; while direct unit comparisons have their place, 95% of time they're not really a valid comparison.  To take one example; DA Tactical squad + Dev banner + Div Librarian vs Ultramarine Tactical trait or IF Trait.  Of course the DA bolter storm is better, it's comparing apples to oranges.  Or, another example; simply comparing a White Scar's biker list vs a Ravenwing list.  Sure, the WS' get cheaper and better basic bikers but what are they missing out on?  They don't have a force multiplier in the Dev Banner and they don't have access to Black Knights.  Yeah, they get grav, but grav has positives and negatives.  And sure, the Ravenwing list wouldn't have the same toys as the WS list, but that's the point; they're supposed to be different!

 

You really have to look at how a balanced list from C:DA compares against a balanced C:SM list otherwise you're just cherry-picking comparisons in your favour.  Play to the strengths of your codex and the weaknesses of your opponent's.  If you like how another codex plays, looks, or feels better than C:DA, play it then.  But reserve claims about one being fundamentally better or worse than another until people have really been able to pit them against each other as well as the other codices.

 

And finally, I look at the two books like this:  C:SM is French Vanilla ice cream while C:DA is Vanilla Bean.  They both have similarities but they're both definitely different flavours!  (and of course Vanilla Bean is better :P)

[Varizel]

Eh the only thing, and I hate to say it, that I wish we got is the Devastator Centurions. I know I know, I'll be heading to Chaplains right after I post this, but hear me out.

I think Devastator Centurions are going to be a must take in most marine armies. I think grav-cannons with the grav amps are going to be the number 1 choice for them. Oh I get re-rolls to wound/penetrate for my grav weapons? Yeah let me just get two 6s and 90% of the vehicles in the game are wrecked (since immobilizing a vehicle thats already immobilized gives an extra hull point). These weapons are going to make it almost impossible to run transports because they'll be even easier to take down. If GW's intent was to make the transport null and void, they're doing a fine job of it. Though it still won't stop me from taking a land raider. It'll just add another factor I have to keep in mind.

Now am I mad we didn't get them? No not at all. I think they're just going to be that good you're going to see them all over the place. As to the rest of the codex, other than their flyers/AA options I'm happy where we came out.

At least the disparity isn't as bad as it was last codex release

I know they look a little silly in the pictures, but I think Centurions will look pretty neat stacked up alongside other marines.

Case in point: The White Dwarf "one click collection" for Black Templar

I think they actually look pretty cool in that photo alongside the rest of that army.

The good thing is that is a really pricey squad. To run them with the Grav Guns, it's about equivalent to a land raider upgraded to be a deathwing vehicle. Why is that a good thing? Means that taking some Ultrasmurf allies to field a squad of them is pretty simple to do, you'll just have to bring one heavy support unit already in our own codex. Easily done if you're already running Deathwing as you simply declare your Land Raiders as HS rather than Dedicated Transport, or you just bring a whirlwind or predator, or Mortis Pattern Dreadnought if you go Forgeworld.

I have to admit I feel like we'll make better allies to a primary detachment of Codex: Space Marines than Codex: Space Marines would make to us. A raven guard force with assault marines and vanguard vet up the wazoo backed up by a Darkshroud makes a lot of sense. Our terminators wouldn't be troops choices, but you could still amass a single blob of them to deepstrike in unerringly near some scouts that moved up with a teleport homer, so that tactic is just as viable as within our own dex. Black Knights are also pretty easy to blob up rather than run as multiple entries.

@SinnerBeta: I'm only really jealous of the flaming sword, honestly. +3 Strength, Ap2, but has the chance of causing an AP2 bolter strength hit on the wielder if he rolls 1s (I forgot if it was to wound or to hit, or maybe it was a seperate roll you take after you land a hit, I forget). Same point cost as the Mace of Redemption, more universally useful. Getting AP2 melee weapons in our codex guarantees you'll be unwieldy and that sucks.

Yessireee.. i think Dev Cents gonna be looked pretty schweet standing side by side with other marines. For your Burning Blade and Mace of Redemption comparison though. Burning Blade costs ALMOST double Mace of Redemption. For about the same rules. Honestly Mace of Redemption is a much better buy for all around purposes. You probably mistook the point cost of Teeth of Terra to Burning Blade. Teeth of Terra, don't hold a candle against Mace of Redemption. SM Relics are realllyyyyyyy expensive.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

That's the thing. I *like* when my guys have their morale break in close combat when they lose, because ATSKNF lets me auto-rally which lets me turn around and plug more bolter rounds into that squad (or bolt pistol shots and then lets me assault that unit right back with the charge bonus to attacks). It also makes it hard to break away from combat if you get a squad assaulted by something they can't hurt, like a Maulerfiend or a Dreadnought, because you can never choose to automatically fail the leadership test you have to take in order to flee.

 

I have had stubborn hurt me more often than help me.

 

Only because you don't seem to know the rules. Have a butcher's at p.26 of the Rulebook. The paragraph titled 'Our Weapons are Useless', specifically. 

 

Hunters and Stalkers are crap. The Hunter is a Whirlwind Hyperios, minus Interceptor and with an easily-avoided gimmick in its stead. The Stalker is just a Quad Gun, at best.

 

Neither Stormravens nor Stormtalons have changed from their statline and point cost in DftS so why you're whining about them I don't know.

 

And hey, you know what you can do to represent those seven 'Codex' companies, if you're so insistent that the grass is greener? Have a goosey at p.112 of the Rulebook. 

[clanfield]

I think I prefer the dark angel book to be honest much more flavour and a good feel for the ancient marines ,donn't get me wrong its a good book full of neat stuff just didn't like it as much 

 

as to centurions yea just paint a bullseye on the fat boys and plasma away

[Fray]

Only because you don't seem to know the rules. Have a butcher's at p.26 of the Rulebook. The paragraph titled 'Our Weapons are Useless', specifically.

 

I think perhaps you should take a look at the Dark Angels codex, specifically page 28 and re-read Grim Resolve (and probably Inner Circle too).  You'll find that he was correct...

[SRSFACE]

Only because you don't seem to know the rules. Have a butcher's at p.26 of the Rulebook. The paragraph titled 'Our Weapons are Useless', specifically. 

"If a unit is locked in combat with an enemy it cannot hurt, it can choose to automatically fail its Morale Check for losing combat."

 

Grim Resolve, page 28 of the Dark Angels codex:

"In addition, a unit containing at least one model with the Grim Resolve special rule can never choose to automatically fail a Morale Check."

 

Please don't tell me I don't know the rules. There's no reason to be condescending. Considering the rule that gives us Stubborn is "Grim Resolve," for the purposes of Codex: Dark Angels, it's one and the same.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Fair enough, my bad. Apologies, SRSFACE.

 

Inner Circle has no bearing, though. Not that I can see, anyway.

[SRSFACE]

Inner Circle gives Fearless. Fearless makes you automatically pass Morale Checks, meaning you could not choose to automatically fail one.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Again, my bad and again, apologies.

[SRSFACE]

Is all good. :)

 

I just recall one of my first games before I knew better, I deep striked my Terminator blob behind enemy lines and they weren't able to blow up the Helbrute I was aiming for despite two assault cannons in the rear armor. They got shot up down to like 3 guys left + Belial then got charged by a Helbrute. All the power fist guys whiffed, then got smashed to death by the Helbrute's 3 attacks that turn. So it was just Belial and a Helbrute, and he couldn't run away, nor could he hurt it with the Sword of Silence.

 

He passed his invulnerable saves like a champ, though, and tarpitted that Helbrute for like 2 turns when it was just them squaring off. That was kind of silly.

[Syphid]

You can hurt a dreadnought or maulerfiend with Krak grenades, no?  Unlikely, but possible.

 

Edit: Against Ironclads you're pretty much boned without a fist, hammer, or meltabomb.

[Retaliation]

You can hurt a dreadnought or maulerfiend with Krak grenades, no?  Unlikely, but possible.

 

Edit: Against Ironclads you're pretty much boned without a fist, hammer, or meltabomb.

 

Yeah. That's why grim resolve is irrelevant against the very common AV12 and monstrous creatures. Krak prevents both C:SM and DA from using Our Weapons Are Useless, and with the new codex only Calgar allows a unit to fail whatever morale check they please.