Just got done looking through Codex: Space Marine >:[

[Magos Valkamar]

Personally I'm sticking with the DA codex, seeing as the new SM book hasn't made us irrelevant like last edition and I really need to wash away the shame of using the SM codex all through 5th...

[Simiel]

FYI : Codex Space Marine Combat Squads :- Note that bike squads count as being at full strength when they have eight space marine bikers and one attack bike, if split into combat squads one combat squad will have 5 five bikers, the other will have three and the attack bike.

 

Overall what I take from the codex is Chapter Tactics > Grim Resolve ( but alot of our chapter tactics are built into our units ).

Dark Angel Warlord Traits are abit better

Tigiruis ( though 100pts more ) > DA Librarian > Stock Librarian.

Codex Chapter/Company Masters more flexible.

Our Special wargear is better ( Infravisor and PFG for the win! ) our Termies are better if more expensive, we have the best Heavy Elite assault unit ( imho also best looking ), Ravening Black Knights are still awesome.

Ravenwing has been fairly devalued. But there's more too Dark Angels than just the bolter banner and bikes surely ?

[HJL]

I don't know, i would say that one of the strongest parts of the DA codex are the librarians. I would still put Ezekiel on top of Tigirius. He is cheaper, has the stat line of a company master, good preknown power, can automatically take prescience and then gets another random power as a bonus. he also has 2+ save, master crafted everything and boosts the WS of everyone in his squad.

 

Honestly i don't know why people don't rave about him, i use him a lot and think hes awesome.

 

Ezekiel > Tigirius > DA Librarian > SM Librarian

 

 

ps, ive spent about a year on the chaos forum building up my word bearers army. Its so refreshing to come here to sensible adult discussions on a codex rather than the approach over there of constant complaining and exaggeration. It should be a lesson to everyone, never leave The Rock!

[Terrified Templar]

Hey all, I am a C:SM and I just happened to wander in here so I would like to add my two cents from a C:SM perspective.

 

First off you guys are still a force to be reckoned with, don't let our shiny new toys and awesome new rules make you guys think otherwise.

 

Secondly, you guys have things we can't top (cheap Divination libbys and stupid banners that cause us grief are some examples).

Thirdly, your terminators are some of the best and you are still the king of biker armies (we're still going to challenge you for the title though).

 

And lastly, I have noticed that you guys generally don't scream "We should get their new units FAQed into our codex." Seriously I can't tell you guys the number of times seeing this has annoyed me, I never saw C:SM players saying that they should get Deathwing Knights are Death Company FAQed into our codex. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal but it's nice to see that you guys generally don't do that (mostly you guys do that about flyers which is fair since you guys did get stuck with overpriced ones which is just horrible for you guys and I hope you get a discount on those in the future).

 

Well anyway good luck to all of you, go out kill some xenos and heretics, maybe we'll end up fighting alongside each other. Although it's funny that sometimes when we fight alongside you you guys seem to be only ones that ever come back but I am sure it's nothing to worry.

[Motorhead]

Did I read it wrong?  Or is the new C:SM  librarian upgrade to level 2  cheaper than ours?  If this is the case, is there a balance or fluff reason anyone can tell  me for this or did we get a bit of a slap there?

[SRSFACE]

You can hurt a dreadnought or maulerfiend with Krak grenades, no?  Unlikely, but possible.

 

Edit: Against Ironclads you're pretty much boned without a fist, hammer, or meltabomb.

True enough, but Belial doesn't have grenades. But, yeah, very good point.

 

So I guess that'd only really come into play if you were running into people running Contemptor dreadnoughts.

 

Anyway, I just got done playing my friend. I think one of the biggest things to come into play I hadn't realized is that Fearless is not a stock deal on all Space Marine HQ guys like it is with the vast majority of Dark Angel HQ guys, because of Inner Circle. That's a pretty big deal as it makes any squad you stick an HQ with Inner Circle with immune to pinning. Granted Ld10+ doesn't fail very often, but immune > super low percentage all day every day.

 

Oh, and for the record, do not expect to win challenges against Black Templar. :D One of my tactical squad sergeants got falcon punched 3 times in a single round because of the rerolls they get in close combat. Needless to say he was very dead. They were close to the table edge, so we decided that my Sergeant was already at 250% damage when Captain Falcon landed his attacks. Flew right off the side of the board, and we are playing stock mode with only 1 life apiece. (I really hope someone gets that joke.)

 

I also realized why the Dark Talon is more expensive than the Storm Talon. It's got an extra hull point. That actually came into play. Still, I think Storm Talons are vastly superior aircraft most of the time.

 

Another takeaway is something we all already know: Black Knights beat anything that isn't a monstrous creature. They decimated my buddy's honor guard in short work, and let me just not accept Helbrecht's challenge with Interrogator-Chaplain Brennus (my IC on a bike) so I'd have my 15 attacks in the first round against him.

[Syphid]

It's too bad the rule is called "Our weapons are useless!" and not "Our weapons aren't useful enough!"  :p

[SRSFACE]

Did I read it wrong?  Or is the new C:SM  librarian upgrade to level 2  cheaper than ours?  If this is the case, is there a balance or fluff reason anyone can tell  me for this or did we get a bit of a slap there?

It's 25 points for theirs, as I overheard my friend talking about how he's going to rig up the custom librarian I painted for him. (Picture!) He's going to run allies within Codex: Space Marines to bring an Imperial Fist successor chapter alongside his Black Templar, because we both really like Librarians from a fluff standpoint and figured it'd be the most fluffily acceptable way to do so.

 

I left my DA book in the car because somehow between the game shop and home, it went from no rain at all to total cats and dogs, so I didn't want to get it wet. I believe that's what ours is, though, yeah?

 

Dark Angel and Codex Librarians serve different roles. Divination for my money is the best general psychic discipline in the game (and I think it only takes second fiddle to Runes of Fate in the Eldar book) but Biomancy is also really nasty. So their librarians are more likely to be ungodly powerful in close combat while ours are better buffbots.

[Syphid]

You can hurt a dreadnought or maulerfiend with Krak grenades, no? Unlikely, but possible.

Edit: Against Ironclads you're pretty much boned without a fist, hammer, or meltabomb.

True enough, but Belial doesn't have grenades. But, yeah, very good point.

So I guess that'd only really come into play if you were running into people running Contemptor dreadnoughts.

Anyway, I just got done playing my friend. I think one of the biggest things to come into play I hadn't realized is that Fearless is not a stock deal on all Space Marine HQ guys like it is with the vast majority of Dark Angel HQ guys, because of Inner Circle. That's a pretty big deal as it makes any squad you stick an HQ with Inner Circle with immune to pinning. Granted Ld10+ doesn't fail very often, but immune > super low percentage all day every day.

Oh, and for the record, do not expect to win challenges against Black Templar. One of my tactical squad sergeants got falcon punched 3 times in a single round because of the rerolls they get in close combat. Needless to say he was very dead. They were close to the table edge, so we decided that my Sergeant was already at 250% damage when Captain Falcon landed his attacks. Flew right off the side of the board, and we are playing stock mode with only 1 life apiece. (I really hope someone gets that joke.)

I also realized why the Dark Talon is more expensive than the Storm Talon. It's got an extra hull point. That actually came into play. Still, I think Storm Talons are vastly superior aircraft most of the time.

Another takeaway is something we all already know: Black Knights beat anything that isn't a monstrous creature. They decimated my buddy's honor guard in short work, and let me just not accept Helbrecht's challenge with Interrogator-Chaplain Brennus (my IC on a bike) so I'd have my 15 attacks in the first round against him.

How did the Darktalon fare? And which SM HQs don't have Fearless?

[Aradiel]

Did I read it wrong?  Or is the new C:SM  librarian upgrade to level 2  cheaper than ours?  If this is the case, is there a balance or fluff reason anyone can tell  me for this or did we get a bit of a slap there?

 

35 for ours

its GW

[Brother dean]

 

, as I overheard my friend talking about how he's going to rig up the custom librarian I painted for him. (Picture!) 

Your painting is just fine SRSFace...   Better than a lot of us...

[Scribe]

Exactly.  It is far too soon to fret.  And if it is true that their book exceeds ours then look at it this way.  

 

 

 

At least we arent Chaos...

 

 

Wonder how those guys are feeling with  direct counters to their one trick dragon..

 

And my LS Vengeance taught my Wolfbrother not to Rhino wall rush with his Twolves on the other side....    You only need one shot to make your points back but it is also useful as a fire magnet...  not cost effective, but useful....

 

Came for this. Am leaving satisfied.

[SRSFACE]

@Syphid: My dark talon has been my MVP several games in a row. I wouldn't say it was in this one, but it did perform well. I don't get why everyone seems to dislike it so much. It's the same cost as a full 10 man tactical squad and brings nearly the same firepower to bear (arguably more, since you re-roll misses), and while it's not as survivable as 10 power armor mobs are, it's still pretty difficult to take down without dedicated anti-air.

 

It came in the turn after his Crusader squad blob came out of his land raider and murdered handily some Ravenwing bikers I had scout moved forward. I think it killed about 7 guys that turn, because I had my Dakka banner within range to double it's shots and as they had just been in close combat, I was able to get 3 hits with the Rift Cannon. All in all, a good day of shooting. It then ate 3 krak missiles from his dev squad. Jink save against one of them, and the two both managed to pen but he rolled a 1 and a 2 on the pen chart. Considering I was going to have to snap fire next turn anyway because of Evasive Maneuvers, I lucked out pretty hard.

 

It flew over to his Devastators the next turn and still managed to kill 1 of them with snap fires from the boltguns. Gotta love rerolls. I rolled flippin' 5 hits somehow on the 12 shots.

 

My Nephilim Jetfighter also performed super well. Blew up a Razorback containing Helbrecht and his Honor Guard, and then his Storm Talon came on the table and I was able to hit that for a glance with the Lascannon.

 

I have to say, a LOT went right for me this game. The fact it was the Scouring, for example, when he was running a crusader blob squad. I was able to combat squad up and cover more objectives, so the end result looked more lopsided than the victory actually felt.

 

added: Thanks, Dean. Means a lot coming from one of the guys who's work I really enjoy. That guy even though I don't own it is easily my pride and joy, was probably my best work so far.

 

After this game, I've been invigorated to get back to painting up the rest of my forces so I'll make sure to share it with y'all when it's done. Project: All of the Command Squads has 2 more power armor guys left, 4 terminators and then my 6 black knights that tend to be ran as a command squad.

[elphilo]

Oh, and for the record, do not expect to win challenges against Black Templar. One of my tactical squad sergeants got falcon punched 3 times in a single round because of the rerolls they get in close combat. Needless to say he was very dead. They were close to the table edge, so we decided that my Sergeant was already at 250% damage when Captain Falcon landed his attacks. Flew right off the side of the board, and we are playing stock mode with only 1 life apiece. (I really hope someone gets that joke.)

All I heard was link's yell as he flies off the screen. So someone got it

Like I said before, we're still in a good place. We weren't completely negated like the last time a SM codex came out.

[Simiel]

Did I read it wrong?  Or is the new C:SM  librarian upgrade to level 2  cheaper than ours?  If this is the case, is there a balance or fluff reason anyone can tell  me for this or did we get a bit of a slap there?

Well our Librarians also have Inner Circle basically for free, so I don't mind paying a little extra for our upgrades.

[Onisuzume]

And lastly, I have noticed that you guys generally don't scream "We should get their new units FAQed into our codex." Seriously I can't tell you guys the number of times seeing this has annoyed me, I never saw C:SM players saying that they should get Deathwing Knights are Death Company FAQed into our codex. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal but it's nice to see that you guys generally don't do that (mostly you guys do that about flyers which is fair since you guys did get stuck with overpriced ones which is just horrible for you guys and I hope you get a discount on those in the future).

The difference between chapter-specific toys and toys that every chapters supposedly gets.

I mean, really, what for fluff reason would there be for the DA not to have those AA tanks? Especially considering our own codex's lack of AA units outside of Flak missiles. The only viable AA unit we got comes from FW.

 

That'll be the only real sour point to us, afaik.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Yeah I fully agree a 10 point difference for our Libby's is not bad at all for and upgrade especially since we can Divination and they can't.

 

SRSFACE I'll give you the reroll 1's for bolters does make there's a bit better than ours. (Or a ton better depending on your opinion)

Also it gives me heart to hear you do well with your flyers. I bought two of them at half price (thank you ebay) and have yet to use them but they look so sweet I have to throw them in a List if nothing else to watch them catch fire and die but still they'll look good while they do it. Any tactical advice you can give on using them?

 

Honestly after our last codex I'm just glad points are pretty much the same. Yeah we don't have some of the toys and the Air Craft are better but other than that I'm pretty happy. The Stalker/Hunter thing was very meh for me. Honestly dual purpose Flakk Missiles for our Dev's seems better to me. Or just a WW Hyperios and call it a day.

 

I was planning on starting a Crimson Fists force because I love the fluff but between price increases and the lack of excitement anymore I believe I will just finish fleshing out my DA's and start a Tau army for giggles. I know to the Cell for me but like many on here I don't like to ally in much unless specific scenarios, not that I have a problem with others doing it, I'd rather have more options to choose from and just not use them. However a Inquistor/Imperial Guard army does sound sweet if I can ever figure out a good one.

 

My two wishes are for sternguard ammo (can live without it though) and Relic Blades (expensive not that great but man it would have been nice) so I'll settle for better Termi's and just take the Monster Slayer and Mace and bash heads in with that.

[SRSFACE]

The Nephilim Jetfighter is the more straightforward of the two. Luckily it's two weapon loadouts are free and it fits in the front of the vehicle without glue so swapping an Avenger Megabolter and Twin-Linked Lascannon really comes down to what you wanna do with it. I figure you know what you're likely to face and know which of the two you'd rather use.

 

The Dark Talon, keep it in position to drop it's bomb on a squad you plan to assault. It's only a frag grenade in strength so it's not like you can really use the bomb to deal significant damage to a squad. Dropping someone 3 full initiative points is pretty awesome, and if you use it in conjunction with a Rad grenade on a Black Knight squad, you pretty much guarantee you're going to swallow whole any squad charged.

 

I also tend to do what I call RavenCastle. If I get a say in where an objective goes, I stick it in my deployment edge in some ruins and turtle up with a full tactical squad rocking the plasma trifecta (pistol on sgt, and a gun and cannon on two dudes) and stick my Command Squad with the Banner of Devastation right behind them. Any other infantry comes near them, they eat 40ish boltgun shots, from a little over 300 points worth of guys. My Raven Wing go out to do the dirty work around the map. Dark Talons serve two roles this way: if they are near your castle, you can simply plop it 6 inches near the Dakka banner and then drop it into Hover Strike til your castle is safe again, or you simply use it's mobility to hunt down scoring units. It's also pretty capable against flying Daemon princes because it's 6 to 12 twin-linked shots that'll actually hit on full BS value.

[Syphid]

 

Did I read it wrong?  Or is the new C:SM  librarian upgrade to level 2  cheaper than ours?  If this is the case, is there a balance or fluff reason anyone can tell  me for this or did we get a bit of a slap there?

Well our Librarians also have Inner Circle basically for free, so I don't mind paying a little extra for our upgrades.

 

Right, but every C:SM Librarian has Chapter Tactics for free.  Inner Circle, along with Grim Resolve, is really just our version of Chapter Tactics.

[Master Sheol]

i dont fear C:SM... they are our battle brothers... I want to ally my DA with my CF and do some very nasty tricks...

main army DA with azrael (troops DW and RW) with second HQ a divination librarian...

Add in CF with Kantor (scoring sternguard) 2 tactical squads with grav guns and devcenturions with grav cannons...

add teh divination librarian with PFG to the centurions, add azrael to the tacticals with the grav guns and add Kantor to the sternguard in the drop pod...

And enjoy the enemies of the Imeprium cry like a baby...

[SRSFACE]

Grim Resolve is our Chapter Tactics. Inner Circle is why our HQ guys are better than equivalent HQ guys from C:SM. Straight granting fearless is kind of awesome.

 

But, you know, here's to hoping they drop the point value of making a level 2 psyker. Biomancy and Divination are fairly equivalent tables if you double down into them, so if that's their reasoning, it's on shaky ground. Right now, we've got the most expensive psyker upgrades because C:SM spend 25, and Chaos spends 25 per mastery level (and they get to go up to 3, so, screw that) while all Eldar psykers are just straight up level 2 or 3 depending on the guy without any purchasable options to make them more powerful.

[march10k]

 and I really need to wash away the shame of using the SM codex all through 5th...

You're in good company there...I didn't fall into heresy, but a lot of our brothers were right there with you!

[Magos Valkamar]

 

 and I really need to wash away the shame of using the SM codex all through 5th...

You're in good company there...I didn't fall into heresy, but a lot of our brothers were right there with you!

 

I've learnt the error of my ways, so I'm one of the Unforgiven for life now! At least until I start my DIY Ultramarine successors.

 

Random, but related question: What options does the Apothecary get in the new Sm codex? Can he take a bolter or a bolt pistol? Or is he stuck with a chainsword?

[JeffJedi]

He simply adds the narthecium.

[Biggabertha]

"so we decided that my Sergeant was already at 250% damage when Captain Falcon landed his attacks. Flew right off the side of the board, and we are playing stock mode with only 1 life apiece. (I really hope someone gets that joke.)"

 

"GAME!"

 

That kind of situation sounds VERY painful!

If anything, at least there was a corpse to be sent flying and not be completely pulverised!!