Found my way back to The Rock

[Catastrophe]

Well, I've fallen of the wagon. Once a plastic addict, always a plastic addict.

 

I haven't played DA since 2nd edition from the old Angels of Death Codex. Wow, everything's changed! Well, almost everything. I'm glad our fluff is still mostly intact. I've heard horror stories from the Necron players. Still, no more armor save modifiers, 2d6 terminator saves, triple jam rolls on assault cannons, combat drugs wounding your characters more than their troops, sword parries, a fistful of different dice for chainfist armor pen(anyone have a d20?), I could go on for quite a while.

 

I've lurked for a while, painted a few squads here and there but now I'm just going to take the plunge and start playing again. I just moved back to a major city from being out in the middle of nowhere my chances have gone way up to find other players. So much to learn! I like to think I've read a good bit and have a basic understanding of things. If you don't mind, I've a few ideas I'd like to throw out for criticism/pointing out holes in my thought process. It's strange feeling old and new at the same time.

 

It seems that everyone is going for low AP weapons to beat out armor saves. Everyone rolls 1s though, is volume of fire viable anymore? Make them roll enough saves that they're going to fail eventually?

 

I really want to run triple wing. Green core, RW for harassment and to get teleport homers into position for the DW hammer to come down. Seems fluffy to me, but does it work?

 

I've read a lot about the flyers being too expensive, but with a TLL on a Nephilim and relentless hunter pen hits with +1 on the damage rolls seem to me like they would really wreck other flyers. Missiles, while only str6 and the ability to fire 2 per turn should be able to mess with rear armor rather well. Is it really difficult with a flyer's speed to get behind enemy armor? What about the Avenger and the TL HBs? That's a good bit of dice to throw even with the lack of AP.

 

With the Dark Talon, blinding troops or dropping the stasis bomb on a tough unit right before a charge from knights or characters seems like it would destroy most units, not to mention all the shots from the hurricanes. Is the debuff then charge just hard to get off or is it just lackluster? I'm really tempted to see if I can wring out the points cost on one of our flyers.

 

Pinning weapons, forcing non-fearless models to go to ground, how is that working out? I'm thinking mainly sniper rifles, especially with rending on a 6 and wounding on a 4+. I haven' read their codex but I've been told that big Tau battlesuit isn't fearless. Viable or would you have to be really, really lucky?

 

For our specialty speeders, with all the 'ignores covers saves' stuff going around, are they even viable? The Vengeance, while possible to glance itself to death, that's a whole lot of maneuverability for 3 plasma shots or a template. anyone used it against a group of battlesuits or aspect warriors?

 

I hope I haven't bored everyone too much with my newbishness. I'm looking forward to get my DA on a table.

[Master Avoghai]

You can't bore anybody with your questions when one sees from where you're coming... 2nd -> 6th gap is not a gap, it's a canyon!

 

 

It seems that everyone is going for low AP weapons to beat out armor saves. Everyone rolls 1s though, is volume of fire viable anymore? Make them roll enough saves that they're going to fail eventually?

Volume of fire is actually the feature if v6 : salvo weapons lots of heavy5+ weapons. Saturation is the key.

 

I really want to run triple wing. Green core, RW for harassment and to get teleport homers into position for the DW hammer to come down. Seems fluffy to me, but does it work?

It can work. Depending on the army list. But world has changed since v2. You now have big tournies and RAW players more than before. You

Must know against which type of players you'll play.

 

 

I've read a lot about the flyers being too expensive, but with a TLL on a Nephilim and relentless hunter pen hits with +1 on the damage rolls seem to me like they would really wreck other flyers. Missiles, while only str6 and the ability to fire 2 per turn should be able to mess with rear armor rather well. Is it really difficult with a flyer's speed to get behind enemy armor? What about the Avenger and the TL HBs? That's a good bit of dice to throw even with the lack of AP.

 

With the Dark Talon, blinding troops or dropping the stasis bomb on a tough unit right before a charge from knights or characters seems like it would destroy most units, not to mention all the shots from the hurricanes. Is the debuff then charge just hard to get off or is it just lackluster? I'm really tempted to see if I can wring out the points cost on one of our flyers.

 

the main problem of our flyers is what they can do hit their price.

DT won't do better than a squadron of bikes for the same price.

Nephilim has only the TLLC. For the same price I can get 2RZB or 2 aegis with Icarus.

 

Pinning weapons, forcing non-fearless models to go to ground, how is that working out? I'm thinking mainly sniper rifles, especially with rending on a 6 and wounding on a 4+. I haven' read their codex but I've been told that big Tau battlesuit isn't fearless. Viable or would you have to be really, really lucky?

I have mixed feeling about that.

I tend to think that 40k has too many units with Ld8-9 or fearless so I think that Ld tests are a little unuseful.

However, I've seen other player having some success with that but only because it forces opponents to make several/turn.

 

For our specialty speeders, with all the 'ignores covers saves' stuff going around, are they even viable? The Vengeance, while possible to glance itself to death, that's a whole lot of maneuverability for 3 plasma shots or a template. anyone used it against a group of battlesuits or aspect warriors?

It's true that the ignore cover save tend to become too frequent... GW has trouble when it comes to temper down something. It's always radical... But there's still a room for a shroud.

 

Vengeance... For the same price I have a command squad or vet squad with drop pod and plasma... Or even melta... I let you guess my choice... ^_^

[march10k]

I would avoid the specialty speeders and the fliers.  I would not count on pinning as a tactic. 

 

Volume of fire...well, quantity has a quality all its own, and we have a nice little banner that provides large quantities of boltgun fire. Unfortunately, it's rare to see a DA army without that banner, so I'm starting to sour on it.  A DA army with the dakkapole is like an Eldar army with Eldrad.  It's expected, it's boring, it's an object of ridicule. 

 

Triple Wing works...as long as you are ruthlessly efficient with the points spent on white and black.  I would go with a unit of each flavor of knights, but spend more than 2/3 of my points on green stuff.   On the topic of green stuff, my favorites are lascannon devs (with a prescience librarian and power field generator to twinlink them and keep them alive), whirlwinds, and assault marines.  The first two wreck face, and the jumpers are just plain fun.

[madman2980]

I agree

[Catastrophe]

Thanks for the feedback! I've been thinking about what would be viable instead of what can do the same or more for fewer points.

 

The Force Org Chart is taking some getting used to using slots instead of percentage of points. Is it really an issue or HQs that change it up pretty normal? It feels really restrictive to me, especially with some things being really cheap like whirlwinds.

 

 

Vengeance... For the same price I have a command squad or vet squad with drop pod and plasma... Or even melta... I let you guess my choice...

 

I see your point about command squads but I'm curious about the champions. How often do they survive in challenges to be able to swing back with an unwieldy weapon and only a 6++ save? Do people just not take one? If not, isn't the apothecary vulnerable to challenges then? I assume that the attached HQ will be the one taking challenges but one does not like to assume anything.

 

 

Unfortunately, it's rare to see a DA army without that banner, so I'm starting to sour on it

 

I understand about the banner. I've read a whole lot about it and while salvo 2/4 bolters sounds great I've never been a fan of obvious threats. It just screams 'kill this first!'. I'd rather give my opponent harder choices.

 

On the fluff side, I've looked around and read about the 'incident' with the Black Templars. Is there any other chapters that DA have issues with besides the Templars and Wolves? I'm a good bit behind on my lore.

[HJL]

Nooo. You cant disslike the dakka pole! I fight a green tide army a lot. I went from getting a savage beatdown all the time to blowing them off the field with, as the black library loves to say, "precisice waves of bolter fire".

 

I think that it makes the bolter much closer to the fluff, a truely lethal weapon! :D pew pew pew

[Brother dean]

DO NOT discount the flyers or the speeders...  I had good luck with all of them in spite of the 'netrage.

[SRSFACE]

I'm with Brother Dean. The speeders sort of feel like novelties but I've done quite well with them when I bring them. Since it finally dawned on me I can deep strike in my LS Vengeance near my bikers so it won't scatter and the fact it's a fast skimmer means it can still shoot both it's weapons at full BS value, it's been a wrecking crew.

 

I don't know why people would hate on the Darkshroud, either. Thing is awesome. It's not like your fast attack slots are all that important if you decide to skip bringing flyers, because Ravenwing Attack Squads are most likely going to be a troops choice for you. Means you can bring two squads of various numbers of Black Knights (the all stars of our codex most people seem to agree) and a Dark Shroud to keep them all alive better as well as making you win melee combats quite often. Part of me wants to run a big huge blob of land speeders and have a Darkshroud tail them to try that out. Maybe some day.

 

And I also really like the Dark Talon. It does more than equivalent points worth of bikers do at least in my experiences. 5 bikers with the sgt. having melta bombs = one dark talon in points. You can't melee anything but you can drop a bomb in the movement phase once a game that will nerf the hell out of a squad you want to melee to death with your black knights, and it actually has 1 more TW bolter gun than 5 bikers bring, and it also has a strength 5 blast weapon that blinds. Usually equals about a Heavy Bolter. (People whine the Rift Cannon doesn't have an AP value, but I mean, really? How often does not having an AP value really matter? Most things with pitiful armor are going to be getting cover saves anyway.) Plus, it's an armor 11 flyer with 3 hull points which is just enough to make it a hassle for anything that isn't dedicated anti-flyer, which is often times significantly more durable than 5 bikers is going to be.

 

The Nephilim is overcosted but it still does damage. It's not like it's something people can just ignore when it hits the table because it carries a pretty sizable payload. If they buff the missiles even a single strength point or give it armorbane as it was rumored to have during playtesting, it'd be just fine.

[Master Avoghai]

I see your point about command squads but I'm curious about the champions. How often do they survive in challenges to be able to swing back with an unwieldy weapon and only a 6++ save? Do people just not take one? If not, isn't the apothecary vulnerable to challenges then? I assume that the attached HQ will be the one taking challenges but one does not like to assume anything.

 

The role of a command squad in drop pod is NOT to field a champion or an apoc. It's to get 5 meltas (or flamers) in a drop pod.

[elphilo]

I'm with Brother Dean. The speeders sort of feel like novelties but I've done quite well with them when I bring them. Since it finally dawned on me I can deep strike in my LS Vengeance near my bikers so it won't scatter and the fact it's a fast skimmer means it can still shoot both it's weapons at full BS value, it's been a wrecking crew.

I don't think you can use the teleport homers for Deep Striking land speeders. I beleieve only the locator beacons, bought on drop pods, can be used for them.

I don't know why people would hate on the Darkshroud, either. Thing is awesome. It's not like your fast attack slots are all that important if you decide to skip bringing flyers, because Ravenwing Attack Squads are most likely going to be a troops choice for you. Means you can bring two squads of various numbers of Black Knights (the all stars of our codex most people seem to agree) and a Dark Shroud to keep them all alive better as well as making you win melee combats quite often. Part of me wants to run a big huge blob of land speeders and have a Darkshroud tail them to try that out. Maybe some day.

I actually really like the Darkshroud, cheap and buffs your units. The only reason people dislike them is because there is so much ignores cover in this game that just makes them a free kill point. But other than that the Darkshroud isn't bad.

And I also really like the Dark Talon. It does more than equivalent points worth of bikers do at least in my experiences. 5 bikers with the sgt. having melta bombs = one dark talon in points. You can't melee anything but you can drop a bomb in the movement phase once a game that will nerf the hell out of a squad you want to melee to death with your black knights, and it actually has 1 more TW bolter gun than 5 bikers bring, and it also has a strength 5 blast weapon that blinds. Usually equals about a Heavy Bolter. (People whine the Rift Cannon doesn't have an AP value, but I mean, really? How often does not having an AP value really matter? Most things with pitiful armor are going to be getting cover saves anyway.) Plus, it's an armor 11 flyer with 3 hull points which is just enough to make it a hassle for anything that isn't dedicated anti-flyer, which is often times significantly more durable than 5 bikers is going to be.

 

The Nephilim is overcosted but it still does damage. It's not like it's something people can just ignore when it hits the table because it carries a pretty sizable payload. If they buff the missiles even a single strength point or give it armorbane as it was rumored to have during playtesting, it'd be just fine.

The dislike from our flyers is that they are overcosted. It isn't that they are necessarily bad. They're not, they're okay from a rules/weapon standpoint. But then once you look at their price, then you they start becoming meh to bad choices. I can understand wanting to take one of them and thats fine. Its just when you start taking multiples of them it starts becoming a problem.

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

And I also really like the Dark Talon. It does more than equivalent points worth of bikers do at least in my experiences. 5 bikers with the sgt. having melta bombs = one dark talon in points. You can't melee anything but you can drop a bomb in the movement phase once a game that will nerf the hell out of a squad you want to melee to death with your black knights, and it actually has 1 more TW bolter gun than 5 bikers bring, and it also has a strength 5 blast weapon that blinds. Usually equals about a Heavy Bolter. (People whine the Rift Cannon doesn't have an AP value, but I mean, really? How often does not having an AP value really matter? Most things with pitiful armor are going to be getting cover saves anyway.) Plus, it's an armor 11 flyer with 3 hull points which is just enough to make it a hassle for anything that isn't dedicated anti-flyer, which is often times significantly more durable than 5 bikers is going to be.

 

The Nephilim is overcosted but it still does damage. It's not like it's something people can just ignore when it hits the table because it carries a pretty sizable payload. If they buff the missiles even a single strength point or give it armorbane as it was rumored to have during playtesting, it'd be just fine.

The dislike from our flyers is that they are overcosted. It isn't that they are necessarily bad. They're not, they're okay from a rules/weapon standpoint. But then once you look at their price, then you they start becoming meh to bad choices. I can understand wanting to take one of them and thats fine. Its just when you start taking multiples of them it starts becoming a problem.

SRSFACE compares point by point DT vs bikes so it's not really a cost issue.

 

It's just that you've forgotten a couple of things concerning the flyers vs bikes comparison.

 

- weapon options : you can equip your bikes with meltas, flamers or plasma. Options for DT is 0.

I would have loved to give him HB for +15pts but I cannot.

- manoeuvrability : bikes can move and shoot like they want. DT is forced to move 18" each turn and have only a 45 degrees arc of fire.

Added to that, it's much easier to bring a RAS within 6" from a dakka pole than a DT.

- reserve : bikes may start in reserve and arrive by flank. DT is obliged to start in reserve and arrive by your table edge.

 

This limit a lot the impact of the DT in a way and explain why, for the same amount of points, players prefer a RAS over a DT for the same price.

[elphilo]

And I also really like the Dark Talon. It does more than equivalent points worth of bikers do at least in my experiences. 5 bikers with the sgt. having melta bombs = one dark talon in points. You can't melee anything but you can drop a bomb in the movement phase once a game that will nerf the hell out of a squad you want to melee to death with your black knights, and it actually has 1 more TW bolter gun than 5 bikers bring, and it also has a strength 5 blast weapon that blinds. Usually equals about a Heavy Bolter. (People whine the Rift Cannon doesn't have an AP value, but I mean, really? How often does not having an AP value really matter? Most things with pitiful armor are going to be getting cover saves anyway.) Plus, it's an armor 11 flyer with 3 hull points which is just enough to make it a hassle for anything that isn't dedicated anti-flyer, which is often times significantly more durable than 5 bikers is going to be.

The Nephilim is overcosted but it still does damage. It's not like it's something people can just ignore when it hits the table because it carries a pretty sizable payload. If they buff the missiles even a single strength point or give it armorbane as it was rumored to have during playtesting, it'd be just fine.

The dislike from our flyers is that they are overcosted. It isn't that they are necessarily bad. They're not, they're okay from a rules/weapon standpoint. But then once you look at their price, then you they start becoming meh to bad choices. I can understand wanting to take one of them and thats fine. Its just when you start taking multiples of them it starts becoming a problem.

SRSFACE compares point by point DT vs bikes so it's not really a cost issue.

It's just that you've forgotten a couple of things concerning the flyers vs bikes comparison.

- weapon options : you can equip your bikes with meltas, flamers or plasma. Options for DT is 0.

I would have loved to give him HB for +15pts but I cannot.

- manoeuvrability : bikes can move and shoot like they want. DT is forced to move 18" each turn and have only a 45 degrees arc of fire.

Added to that, it's much easier to bring a RAS within 6" from a dakka pole than a DT.

- reserve : bikes may start in reserve and arrive by flank. DT is obliged to start in reserve and arrive by your table edge.

This limit a lot the impact of the DT in a way and explain why, for the same amount of points, players prefer a RAS over a DT for the same price.

Teaches me to skim posts

[Brother dean]

The Dark Talon is going to be largely immune (16.6% chance of a hit) to more than 75% of an opponents army and most of that wont have a high enough S weapon to ding it...   The bikes however are vulnerable to 100% of the ranged weapons in the opposite army...  

 

Do not underestimate the usefulness of only being hit on 6s (its one reason drakes are so hard to take down)...  There are only going to be 2-3 weapons in the entire other army that will be able to reliably target a flyer.  You may counter with meltas and Missile launchers but then that is (usually) 4 other guys standing with their thumb in a stinky place and not shooting at your troops (scoring) squads.  We can compare and contrast jink and evade all we want but I will gladly take that automatic reduction in potential hits.

 

It does have a place in the army.

[facmanpob]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'd just like to add one comment that may be of interest.

The Dark Talon is being compared directly with the bike section of a Ravenwing Attack Squadron. This is sensible as they are of equivalent cost and similar weaponry. The DT is of course a Fast Attack flyer, and the RAS in an army led by Sammael are troops. Which leads me to my point. My experience of playing Ravenwing armies is that we are not short of troops on the battlefield. Most RW armies tend to to field anything from 4 to 8 troop choices, given that the attack bike is just about the cheapest troop option in the game (even single Farsight Enclaves Crisis suits tend to cost more once they have some weapons added!). Given that point, sacrificing a troops choice for a much more difficult to kill flyer which can put out almost exactly the same firepower as the bike squad (albeit harder to use and position) is not a bad option.

The Nephilim, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish entirely, and I would be far more likely to ally in a lascannon/assault cannon armed Storm Talon for 40 points less than a Nephilim, given that taking the allied detachment is a good option in a bike army due to the ability to bring relentless grav gun bikers to the party.

[Brother dean]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'd just like to add one comment that may be of interest.

The Nephilim, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish entirely, and I would be far more likely to ally in a lascannon/assault cannon armed Storm Talon for 40 points less than a Nephilim, given that taking the allied detachment is a good option in a bike army due to the ability to bring relentless grav gun bikers to the party.

Are you talking about a White Scar ally because anything else the bikes will be a FA slot and the Talon being an FA slot will be a no-go because you only get one....

What is the cost of a khan in terms of Sammaels?

[facmanpob]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'd just like to add one comment that may be of interest.

The Nephilim, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish entirely, and I would be far more likely to ally in a lascannon/assault cannon armed Storm Talon for 40 points less than a Nephilim, given that taking the allied detachment is a good option in a bike army due to the ability to bring relentless grav gun bikers to the party.

Are you talking about a White Scar ally because anything else the bikes will be a FA slot and the Talon being an FA slot will be a no-go because you only get one....

What is the cost of a khan in terms of Sammaels?

Any Bike Captain makes units of 5+ bikes troops. A White Scar army will give you access to the best bike traits.

Khan on Moodndrakken is 50 points less than Sammy.

[Brother dean]

there I go letting my ignorance and assumptions show....

[facmanpob]

there I go letting my ignorance and assumptions show....

No worries - what it does go to show is that loads of the pre-release "facts" were actually nonsense. I was fully expecting to find that I had to take a WS army to unlock bikes as troops..... but no, its just that I'd be daft not to!

[Master Avoghai]

I donnot underestimate the hit on 6 but what's the point of not being wounded if you have few potential attacks?

 

100% of the enemy weapons able to target your bikes is a little over the top. You have the LoS issue (when everybody can see a flyer) and the range (which may be an issue for flyer as well).

And since you can move like you want, you're able to use this features at bikes'advantage.

 

On the other hand, your flyer is always sure to lose the first turn of shooting (because there are times when you don't want to keep 6 TL bolters in reserve) and has a limited arc of fire.

 

As for the survivability : one hit of lascannon = one dead bikes in the worst of the case. One hit of lascannon could mean one dead DT...

Both of the units may profit from a cover save but bikes won't hit on 6 if they use it.

 

I'm not saying it's unuseful.., but I'm just saying it ain't worth the price of a RAS.

[Catastrophe]

Great pros and cons all around. Oh for a simpler time...

 

 

The role of a command squad in drop pod is NOT to field a champion or an apoc. It's to get 5 meltas (or flamers) in a drop pod. 

Can't a vet squad do nearly the same thing 10 points cheaper? They can only bring combi weapons for most of the squad but I've a feeling they wouldn't survive long after you unloaded them anyway so the single plasma/melta shot won't matter much. Can also bump up the vets numbers, can't increase command squad size. They do take up an elite slot though. 

 

 

 I beleieve only the locator beacons, bought on drop pods, can be used for them.

With all the talk about bringing in SM allies, scout bikes can bring a locator too, might make for an interesting shell game, are they coming in by the pod or the bikes? Foot scouts can take homers. Make them guess if the DW are coming in by them or the RW. I also like the idea of DA using other chapter's scouts as expendable teleport jockeys.

 

 

The Dark Talon is going to be largely immune (16.6% chance of a hit) to more than 75% of an opponents army 

That's why I expect to see Stalkers and Hunters everywhere, especially with them being way cheaper then what they counter. I suppose you could make them priority targets but everything I can think of to take them out costs a lot more. It seems like a waste.

 

 

I would be far more likely to ally in a lascannon/assault cannon armed Storm Talon for 40 points less than a Nephilim

I've thought about that as well. Seems strange to me that an assault cannon is way better than our missiles being the same str and ap, unlimited ammo, 2 more shots per turn and rending all for a 12" shorter range. Storm Talons don't get unrelenting hunter but they get ceramite plating. Only 1 ttl shot though, I think I'd go with skyhammers for 3 shots at str 7 and a much farther range than the ttl. That also makes them even cheaper.

 

I seem to recall LCs having a 72" range, when did they go to 48" ?

[Brother dean]

I wanna say third ed when all the armor value modifier shenanigans  went away too...

 

I will want to read the rules for Hunters and Stalkers before I start leaving the planes out for good.

[Master Avoghai]

Great pros and cons all around. Oh for a simpler time...

 

 

The role of a command squad in drop pod is NOT to field a champion or an apoc. It's to get 5 meltas (or flamers) in a drop pod.

Can't a vet squad do nearly the same thing 10 points cheaper? They can only bring combi weapons for most of the squad but I've a feeling they wouldn't survive long after you unloaded them anyway so the single plasma/melta shot won't matter much. Can also bump up the vets numbers, can't increase command squad size. They do take up an elite slot though.

Could be true... But depends of the environment. If you have several units in range, your opponent will have to make choices.

Melta-bolters cost the same price as meltas.

Flamers are less expensive than bolter flamers.

 

So it's only an issue for bolter-plasma...

[march10k]

Before you start to panic about enemy fliers, think "what can they do to hurt you?" Most of them can kill 0-4 models per turn, barring insane luck.  Some of them can ferry enemy units, which is more dangerous, but is often offset by weaker weapons.  Given their limited killing potential, minimum movement requirement, and relatively high points cost, fliers are really not game-breakers (except possibly the drake if you have MEQs, or the vendetta if you have lots of  tanks), so worrying too much about them means you're not worrying enough about stuff that's more killy and more points efficient.  My philosophy is to ensure that I have a few units that have volume of fire to generate hits against fliers without being specifically anti-flier units, with weapons that can hurt fliers, like assault cannons and lascannons....but not to take separate dedicated anti-aircraft artillery (AAA)

[Catastrophe]

Well, I played my first 6th game yesterday against Eldar with Dark Eldar allies. I wasn't terribly concerned with the outcome as it was mostly practicing the rules and my list reflected that, no real concentration of units. 1,000 points, relic mission and wound up tied after 5 turns. One more would probably have seen me tabled though. It was a disaster for all intents and purposes though as the dice did not cooperate at all. Failed armor saves, leadership tests and charges all over the place. Also couldn't hit much of anything either.

 

My biggest question now is how do people deal with so much randomness? What do you to to mitigate or compensate for bad rolls?

[Brother dean]

Square corner dice (casino dice for lack of a better name)...    Round corner dice such as Chessex and the GW starter set dice roll a disproportionate number of ones and twos....  (Casinos know this and thats why they dont use round corner dice.  Anything to part you from your money)

 

 

And when games like that happen you just laugh, chalk it up to the dice gods, blame your buddy that touched your dice...        and move on.