Found my way back to The Rock

[facmanpob]

Oh, and I have found that Eldar and Dark Eldar do way better than us at lower points levels. Chalk it up to fate and make the xenos play at 1500 points next time :)

[Master Avoghai]

I've lived that years ago against a chaos player... Every thing I did turned wrong ( needed 3 meltas shoots to kill a rhino, double rending on my bikes with 2A...) the only thing I succeeded was a triple inv save on my captain... Meaning the dread he was engaged with would pass my following shooting phase quietly...

 

But recently I've known the exact contrary : everything went right (8hits on my tactical squad of an orbital bombardment : 8 cover saves )

 

It's not better : you feel sorry for your opponent in this case and have the feeling that victory is not due to your good choices.

 

In this case you have to re concentrate on small objectives like not leaving him invade your deployment zone kill his warlord or destroy the unit he's the most proud of.

It would maintain a interest for the game and could reduce the loss (4-3 and 6-1 are different way to lose hu?)

 

Out from that, you also have to make sure what you qualify as "bad luck".

Make 9 1s out of 10 dice is bad luck (and happen to a guy I know, with witnesses :lol: )

Count on a single hit of melta to destroy a LR and finally failed it is not what I call bad luck.

 

Often, we qualify as bad luck a big risk that didn't pay back...

[Catastrophe]

Played my 2nd game today. 1500 pts. vs. Farsight Tau. It was equally entertaining, enlightening and depressing. By the end of turn 5 I had 5 marines left and a Rhino barely hanging on with 1 hull point. I conceded even though the roll was to continue. There wasn't even any point to totalling up VPs.

 

I've no doubts that my ignorance of the rules and inexperience contributed greatly to my crushing defeat and accept that it was a learning experience. Even so, from what I do know tells me I won't like this edition. I'll keep trying though, 2 games isn't really enough to base a firm conclusion on but I'm having a difficult time trying to see how it will get better. I feel like the game is buried under a mountain of special rules. I feel like I'm buried by them. There are a few things that really bother me though.

 

What is this about no assaults on the first turn if you go first? How does that make any sense?

 

Not being able to assault with deep striking units is bugging me to no end. I'm at a loss as to where to drop them.

 

What's the point of cover when so much ignores cover? For that matter why even bother with Terminators when there's so much AP2 to be had?

 

1500 points took 4 hours to play. Is this normal? I don't remember 2nd ed being that slow...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Played my 2nd game today. 1500 pts. vs. Farsight Tau. It was equally entertaining, enlightening and depressing. By the end of turn 5 I had 5 marines left and a Rhino barely hanging on with 1 hull point. I conceded even though the roll was to continue. There wasn't even any point to totalling up VPs.

 

I've no doubts that my ignorance of the rules and inexperience contributed greatly to my crushing defeat and accept that it was a learning experience. Even so, from what I do know tells me I won't like this edition. I'll keep trying though, 2 games isn't really enough to base a firm conclusion on but I'm having a difficult time trying to see how it will get better. I feel like the game is buried under a mountain of special rules. I feel like I'm buried by them. There are a few things that really bother me though.

 

What is this about no assaults on the first turn if you go first? How does that make any sense?

 

Not being able to assault with deep striking units is bugging me to no end. I'm at a loss as to where to drop them.

 

What's the point of cover when so much ignores cover? For that matter why even bother with Terminators when there's so much AP2 to be had?

 

1500 points took 4 hours to play. Is this normal? I don't remember 2nd ed being that slow...

To deepstrike, pick a spot where your shooting is effective and/or you can make your enemy split fire/double back. 

Tau ignores alot of cover.. against anything else cover is still good to have.

Terminators are still good if the opponent doesnt have alot of AP2, like against orks and Nids. You just have to get more familiar with their limitatons and not expose them to AP2 fire.

1500 shouldn't take 4 hours to play. But in the first games it's alot slower because you have to check and double check rules. the more you pay, the faster it gets.

[Master Avoghai]

What is this about no assaults on the first turn if you go first? How does that make any sense?

You can if this possibility is made by using you normal movement. This can occur if the enemy use his scout move to get closer.

 

But yeah no assault in the other cases. You have to imagine that in 4th edition it was allowed, and that it totally broke games. Units were engaged in turn 1, blocking LoS for the rest of the army, and the only solution you had was to deploy over 24".

 

Imagine what it would give with RWBK : 12" scout move + 12" move + 7" charge (average) = 31" of suppression zone... Now what if I take 2 units? Do you think you will have a happy game?

 

 

For the cover save issue I recognise it is something annoying me. It remembers me 4th edition again when lots of weapons were S8 or instant death and lots of multi w model were T4, and that every time GW created a new character/unit, they immunised it to instant death...

Now things are better as there is no more than one character per codex with eternal warrior.

To me giving no cover save to several Tau weapons is en error as they already have the possibility to put some modifiers to all their weapons using markerlights.

 

But like I've already said elsewhere : we'll have to live with the idea that this edition will have a broken tau codex. Cos it's not only the ignore cover problem, it's also the counter charge shoots on 5+, the interception of reserve on every units and the supporting fire in case of assault. I know tau players that play this army for years now and always had been on the wrong side of the stick for years... Now people tell them they are power gamers... <_<

 

 

As for termis : yes they are tough to use. Actually I don't really bother on AP2 weapons. Those have a low rate of fire and I still have an inv save. That why now I prefer playing one single termi with SS. I try to position it so that it can be the 1st model hit by AP2.

More over AP2 are pricey so...

 

I'm just wondering if your opponent didn't build his list knowing he was playing against you. Because you know, particularly with Tau, it's really easy to make an anti DA army. But I don't think this kind of list would have any success against nids or orks.

Next time, tell him that you borrowed an orks army to see if it wouldn't fit you play style better and see if he bring the same Tau army. If not, then tell him that you've finally wanted to try your DA again ;)

[facmanpob]

A couple of thoughts:

- 4 hours for a 1500 point game is fine considering its your 2nd game for many years.

- Yes, there are tons of Special Rules! (Too many imo..... try reading the Deathwatch RPG book though to see where special rules go to silly extremes!)

- When playing Tau, make sure your opponent is playing the markerlight rules correctly. A lot of Tau players think that spending 2 markerlights grants the Ignores Cover rule to all shooting against a target for the entire turn. It doesn't!

Keep going, and things will improve! I can't give you any advice about DW though, as I'm useless at playing Terminators, which is why I'm taking some Deathwing in my next game, to practice!

[elphilo]

I wouldn't get too discouraged about this edition. It is really good, just your second game was against an army that breaks a lot of the foundation rules (ignoring cover and able to shoot at things without line of sight) and gets a TON of USRs (I'm looking at you buff commander ). I would try playing more, not versus Tau, to be able to get a real feel for the edition.

As to not being able to assault from Deep Strike, its been like that since I've started playing (3rd) so I'm not sure what to tell you on that front. The only thing I can tell you though is if up against Tau and they have an Ion Accelerator Riptide, I would either not Deep Strike them, or Deep Strike them out of Line of Sight. Since the IA doesn't have homing, they can't shoot them with interceptor from the Deep Strike.

Others have said it, but 4 hours at 1500 isn't normal. It is however normal when playing versus Tau. My friend says the main reason he hates playing against Tau is that they do more things in your turn than you do. With all the cheap interceptor and mass overwatch they can do, it really slows down the game. Add on top you're new and still looking up rules, it will really slow the game down. But like what was said before, it'll get faster the more you play. Hell I rarely open the BRB now when I play, though this is probably bad because I just go with what my opponent says and it sometimes turns out to be wrong

[Retaliation]

- When playing Tau, make sure your opponent is playing the markerlight rules correctly. A lot of Tau players think that spending 2 markerlights grants the Ignores Cover rule to all shooting against a target for the entire turn. It doesn't!

 

There seems to be a lot things in the tau codex that players think works one way but actually works another. 

[Brother dean]

I usually dont have any of my combat squad left after the first riptide is done shooting it...

[Catastrophe]

Thanks for all the advice. It was certainly uplifting and as I said I'll keep at it. I've too much money in books, plastic and resin for it to just sit around collecting dust!

 

 

But yeah no assault in the other cases. You have to imagine that in 4th edition it was allowed, and that it totally broke games

 

I can understand that. I know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of dedicated assault troops before I even had a chance to do anything.

 

 

it's also the counter charge shoots on 5+, the interception of reserve on every units and the supporting fire in case of assault.

 

I learned what they can do with that the hard way. I never played Tau, they didn't even exist the last time I played 40k. It was pretty jaw-dropping when he started springing up surprises like that. I don't mind getting thrown into the deep end, I just never thought it was that deep!

 

 

I'm just wondering if your opponent didn't build his list knowing he was playing against you. Because you know, particularly with Tau, it's really easy to make an anti DA army. But I don't think this kind of list would have any success against nids or orks.

 

Oh, I've no doubts that he did. Battlesuits as troops and every one was full of plasma or melta. Hammerheads and the big battlesuit were all ion weapons. He was very patient and understanding with me on the rules but he took a bit more enjoyment out of wrecking me than I cared for. Even so I've now got a very good idea of what Tau can do. I certainly won't make the same mistakes again.

 

 

make sure your opponent is playing the markerlight rules correctly.

 

I think he was, the problem was he just brought so bloody many! Commander with drone controller so he hit on 2s and 5 or six markerlight drones as well as a pathfinder squad. Those lights will be a priority the next time I play Tau.

 

I think I need to get over my concerns with the Standard of Devastation. How do you keep it alive though? Land Raider? PFG? Lots of bodies in front of it? constantly moving around on a bike? I just can't see how it won't be the biggest target for you opponent and really difficult to keep alive.

[SvenONE]

Lot of good points have been made! 

 

I just want to reinforce not counting on pinning as a tactic, unless you're going against a lot of lower LD models.  A successful pin is:

 

4+ hit

4+ wound

failed armor save

failed LD test.

 

It's not going to happen as often as you think, and getting more scouts isn't a solution imo.  My scout squads HAVE helped me hold an extra objective in the past.  It's a cheap way to get an extra objective, with camo cloaks and the long range it frees up your tacs to go contest other objectives and maybe you'll score a precision shot/rend to boot.

 

The banner IS the biggest target for sure, putting it inside a LRC is probably best.  The LRC will benefit from the banner as well, if you're attaching a librarian or techmarine with PFG inside, the PFG counts for the LR and only the LR (thanks FAQ!).  The bike is also a good way because you have the +5 toughness going for you, and ideally a FNP from RW apothocary (and again, a libby, tm or even company master with PFG and that's mainly for any of the ignores cover weapons you may encounter).  Bringing a darkshroud also helps.  Even if they decide to go after it, they're going to putting a lot of shots against a tough target allowing your other units (preferably bikes) to get close enough to start to force CQC and hopefully get a sweeping advance.  The alpha strike power on a bike banner army is HUGE.

 

 

And welcome back!!

[Brother dean]

Keeping the banner alive...   Well, banner isnt in the front squad or even the front of his squad, so there are intervening models (4+) or you know, he is a skilled rider (4+) then add a shroudy speeder for +1 cover...  then there are 2-4 ablative wounds depending on where the shots are coming from...     and possibly an apoth for a 4+ FnP if you need it...    So now we are talking ignore cover and or pick target weapons.  (or Tau...   But tau like to shoot the Shroudy speeder first...)

 

What's that?  Dragon you say?  If you arent "locked" in combat with your BK squad in your opponents 2nd or 3rd turn, you are doing something wrong or you have massacred a unit....  At the end of your opponents assault phase, try a Hit and Run so you can choose another squad to assault or you can maneuver so that you stay out of the arcs of the dragon...

 

The theory is sound.....   :-/

[Catastrophe]

 

the PFG counts for the LR and only the LR (thanks FAQ!).

I thought the FAQ made the PFG apply only to models inside the transport, not the transport itself. A LRC with a 3++ save would be way too OP.

 

I think I'll go with a LRC as the RWCS is a bit too short of bodies for my liking and see how that goes. Do you still measure from the hull or have they FAQed that? Seems a bit cheap to me to extend it's area like that.

 

 

I just want to reinforce not counting on pinning as a tactic

Yeah, I gave up on that real quick. I only brought sniper scouts against that first game against the Eldar. They made him quite nervous after they wounded his Wraithlord a few times. Didn't last long enough to kill it though as he made sure to take them out.

 

 

or you have massacred a unit

I ran into that problem with against the Tau. I wiped out everything I got to assault in one turn but even with a consolidate move they took a disgusting amount of fire from units I hadn't gotten to yet. I'm going to have to work on assaulting nearby units at the same time with different units unless anyone has better ideas.

 

 

apoth for a 4+ FnP

Apothecary is the standard 5+ FNP, isn't it?

 

 

Dragon you say?

No flyers yet thankfully. I don't think I'm ready to start tacking on even more special rules until I can get all the regular ones sorted out. I haven't even begun to think about them. Talk about something really new!

[Brother dean]

 

 

apoth for a 4+ FnP

Apothecary is the standard 5+ FNP, isn't it?

Well probibly...  I am operating without a book right this min and might have let exuberance get the better of me...

 

 

 

Dragon you say?

No flyers yet thankfully. I don't think I'm ready to start tacking on even more special rules until I can get all the regular ones sorted out. I haven't even begun to think about them. Talk about something really new!

 

 

>> 

the PFG counts for the LR and only the LR (thanks FAQ!).

I thought the FAQ made the PFG apply only to models inside the transport, not the transport itself. A LRC with a 3++ save would be way too OP.

 

I think I'll go with a LRC as the RWCS is a bit too short of bodies for my liking and see how that goes. Do you still measure from the hull or have they FAQed that? Seems a bit cheap to me to extend it's area like that.

Better that than the PFG as mentioned already?...  It is a bit evil as the FAQs give different answers to essentially the same question for the PFG and for Banners...

 

Just remember that Murphy's law states that no matter what you do, there will always be that game where you lose important pieces the first turn so plan on having other important pieces...

[Master Avoghai]

And just keep in mind that Tau codex is totally broken and that Farsight enclaves codex is even more broken... Kinda remind me the iron warriors list in 3rd edition or the lash of slaanesh list in the beginning of the 4th...