The Complexity of Leman Russ (Spoiler heavy)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi everyone, new to the forums and hope to participate in fun and intellectually stimulating discussions with all of you. I am not a Warhammer 40K player apart from the computer games, but I have been following the fluff since 5th edition, and have read at least 5 Horus Heresy Novels, all of which were mind boggling to say the least. My favourite chapter/legion by far in terms of fluff (and from what I can tell, fun models to play), are the much misunderstood and often misaligned Vlka Fenryka, aka Space Wolves so I greedily read whatever I can find in regards to them and their primarch Leman Russ.

 

Which comes to the purpose of this thread: So far I read a lot of detracting stuff about Leman Russ, most people still think he is an uncouth barbarian playing a primarch and write him off in most cases as inferior to the more "civilised legions" primarchs. I think the truth is much more complex and it bears delving into. I also aim to enlighten those who don't know Russ to the deeper nature of his character.

 

I have not finished Thousand Sons yet but I have read Prospero Burns in detail. I understand that in the novel "Betrayer", there is actually an incident called Night of the Wolf described there which Leman Russ "tries" to teach Angron the error of his ways and apparently had a chance to kill Angron only he didn't. Don't know the details as I didn't read it but apparently, Russ was himself personally beaten by Angron but the Space Wolves were winning the overall battle tactically and were in position to gun down Angron even as Russ was on his knees. Russ tried to teach Angron that there was more to war than just killing everything, demonstrating that even though he was about to die, so was Angron at the hands of a hundred bolters while Angron had no one fighting for him, the rest of his legion was just doing its usual "kill em all". Not to say the Wolves were losing but the Wolves weren't losing their cool either.

 

From Prospero Burns and the Night of the Wolf incident, I was extremely surprised and pleased by the deep nature of Russ. It makes the old story of Russ challenging the Emperor to an eating, drinking and fighting contest almost out of character. In Prospero Burns, he didn't hate Magnus because he was a psyker, he was extremely concerned that his brother was doing the wrong thing. He wasn't like Mortarion "Burn the witch because a witch is a witch is a witch", he was more like, "Magnus, you're driving too close to the edge, pull back to the other side of the road before you go off the deep end!"

 

Then just before he invaded Prospero, he made an impassioned plea at Magnus (mistakenly talking to Kasper Hawser whom Leman Russ thought was a spy camera for Magnus when in fact, he was a spy camera for chaos) PLEADING for Magnus to surrender, PLEADING that he didn't want to kill his brother, PLEADING for any excuse NOT to slaughter Magnus and his legion.

 

And because of the machinations of chaos, I suspect mostly Tzeetch, two brothers ended up fighting and starting an eternal feud that should never have happened.

 

I am not aware of the Thousand Sons side of the story, but even from Prospero Burns alone, it shows Leman Russ as not the warmongering witch hating image most people seem to assume him to be, but as a surprisingly wise, intelligent, and dare I say it, even compassionate primarch.

 

His image also daresay, is reflected in his sons as well. In Fear To Tread, a small group is detached to the Blood Angels Legion (not sure how many but more than a few battle brothers led by a Rune Priest and a Wolf Lord) Again, despite being relatively uncouth and ill mannered compared to the spit and polish Blood Angels, they show great wisdom and strength of character when facing the then unknown chaos forces, and did their best to advise Sanguinus on fighting chaos and help them in the Signus Prime trap. (their ultimate fate is yet another tragedy among many)

 

So in conclusion, I say this: he is not a barbarian pretending to be a Primarch. He is a Primarch pretending to be a barbarian. I invite you all to give more evidence from other books or sources to support or even detract this statement. Again my limited understanding is to about 5 novels:

 

Prospero Burns (Space Wolves)

Flight of the Einstein, (Death Guard loyalists)

Fear To Tread (Blood angels, cameo from Space Wolves)

Know No Fear (Ultramarines)

Descent of Angels (Dark Angels)

[Conn Eremon]

You essentially have the gist of it. In the Space Wolf viewpoint, the barbarian appearance is just that, an appearance. Which seems to be bought pretty well, for better or for worse.

[Tyrannicide]

"The Night of the Wolf" was a fantastic demonstration of the true cunning behind Leman Russ. The Wolves come to the aid of their endangered Primarch while the Eaters do not. A truly powerful scene.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

You essentially have the gist of it. In the Space Wolf viewpoint, the barbarian appearance is just that, an appearance. Which seems to be bought pretty well, for better or for worse.

 

Well, knowing you were specially created by the Emperor to kill his other sons and their Legions if they stepped out of line must be quite a burden to carry.

[Kol Saresk]

 

There is only one novel that has any chance of "detracting" this statement, but I wouldn't exactly put it that way.

 

Taking the twin novels into account, we can see how much effort Tzeentch put into precipitating this conflict. In the Wolves POV, we see a potential KSons spy planted in the Wolces midst. We also see several daemonic attacks against the Wolves. A total of three, IIRC. One at Nikea, one in orbit over Prospero and one on Prospero.

 

However, I admit the fallacy of my memory, especially concerning Prospero Burns. The tone of it made it a struggle for me to read, not through difficulty but because it did not cultivate my interest the way Abnett's other works tend to do.

 

But from the Sons' POV in A Thousand Sons, all we see is persecution from the Wolves. We even see an unprovoked attack from the Wolves during a joint-compliance, which was precipitated by a paychic howl, from Russ, that killed dozens of the Thousand Sons. And when it comes to Nikea, we see a Rune Priest who had previously exchanged ideas is now using the philosophies to basically attack them.

 

And when it comes to the Razing of Prospero, because Hawser had no connection to the KSons, the Sons received no plea for surrender. They receibed an orbital bombardment. They never saw the daemons who manifested during the fight. They were too busy trying to protect themselves from their rebelling familiars.

 

From the Sons POV, they were innocent victims of a massive conspiracy that they were naive enough to walk into headfirst.

 

And because of the nature of the conspiracy, from their POV(and most outside-VI Legion POVs), the Wolves look to be nothing more than the Spanish Inquisition on a witch hunt.

 

However, I wouldn't say this detracts from Russ and the Legions, but it does detract from their outside image. Or rather, it proves just how effective they were at cultivating the image of savagery.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Damn, I really need to read Thousand Sons to get their side of the story, even though I generally avoid the books which focus on the traitor primarchs (which I know, is actually most of the series.) I did read the first few chapters where Magnus was on a mysterious planet whose population was resistant to mutation, and a band of Space Wolves were dispatched to "ask them" to continue the crusade. At that point of the story, there didn't seem to be any open animosity between the Wolves and Thousand Sons yet.

 

If anything, I'm beginning to learn that even a story of a traitor primarch makes for an interesting read.

 

Still, most of the people on this forum seem to have read Thousand Sons and interpret the Leman Russ and the Wolves from that perspective: as a self righteous, self appointed witch hunter/executioner from the Emperor who is also hypocrisy due to continue usage of Rune Priests after Nikae. Nobody seems to have read Prospero Burns in detail to mention the impassioned plea to Magnus via Kasper Hawser.

 

One thing I wish to know though, fluff says that Leman Russ was supposedly instructed by the custodes and Malcador the Sigilite to arrest Magnus but Horus twisted the message into executing Magnus. In Thousand Sons, did this actually happen?

 

If so, then the moment in Prospero Burns is even more touching, as even though Russ was under the impression of the changed orders to kill the Thousnad Sons once and for all, he still gave a way out to Magnus via that plea. Again, this is far cry from the fluff, and to be honest, I think a great improvement to the character of the Wolf King.

 

"hits tennis ball over the net" ZING your turn.

[Kol Saresk]

First, apologies. I forgot to close the spoiler tags.

 

In A Thousand Sons, we don't know. From the way Magnus reacts, we can see that he expected an execution, not a subpoena. Everything is strictly from their point of view. So all we see is Magnus opening the gate and making sure the walls were unguarded, so to speak so the Wolves could just walk in. However because of the plea sent to the wrong person and the daemonic incursion in orbit, the Wolves attack. But the Thousand Sons had no knowledge of Russ' orders so we don't see if the orders were changed or not, just that the Wolves fired the first shot, as known and recorded by the Thousand Sons.

 

Now, you are right. Russ is a very complex Primarch. The biggest thing against him is the Edict of Nikea. In A Thousand Sons, we see the Emperor pronounce that the Librarians were to be discharged and that they were not to use psychic powers. In the Razing of Prospero, we see Ahriman and Wyrdmake dish it out on the astral plane. While it is semantics, many people feel that the Edict was a blanket judgement. That all Astartes psykers were banned from using their powers. Others, feel that it is a matter of semantics, that only Librarians(and those other titles such as Stormseers that contributed to the Librarius program) were targeted by the Edict while "institutions" like the Rune Priests were exempt because they were not Librarians and they did not support the program, or that somewhere down the line, the Rune Priests were given special dispensation. And frankly, until we see the Emperor's POV on what he meant, it will forever be an exercise in futility and I pity the author who takes it upon himself to put that into writing.

 

But that does take a hit against them. From that specific point of view, it looks as though the Space Wolves have an air of superiority. And unfortunately, there are other small pieces that help to contribute to this.

 

For example, if you recall in Fear to Tread, when the Space Wolves join the Blood Angel fleet, they talk amongst each other about how they have to hide the psychic nature of the Rune Priest from the Blood Angels. This is rather peculiar for two reasons. One, the Space Wolves feel the need to hide a psyker at all. It's as if they aware that to anyone but them, there is no distinction between a Librarian and a Rune Priest. It adds to the possibly perceived hypocrisy factor from ATS. Two, the Blood Angels were the third founding Legion of the Librarius program. Sanguinius helped write the book on how psykers were supposed to be disciplined and trained in the Legion Astartes. If anyone could distinguish between a Rune Priest and Librarian(assuming there was something to distinguish other than methodology and ideology), it would have been the Blood Angels, or at least their Primarch. But instead the Wolves insist on hiding him when they first appear. So that again adds to the hypocrisy factor.

 

Now, I'll be the first to admit that they may have just been overly cautious that the Wardens may not have understood the difference and had reacted before reason could be put forth, which would result in inter-Legion conflict.

 

But, it seems out of character for them to attempt to deceive when usually they are the ones trying to sniff out deceit.

 

That, and I think the order of publishing might have something to do with it. A Thousand Sons was printed first so we saw that point of view before we saw the Wolves.

 

And to be perfectly honest, I think the over zealousness of some of the more vocal Space Wolf fans also hurts the image. People have a tendency of attributing qualities of the fans to the faction they are a fan of. If the most vocal of fans is irrational and not willing to list to reason, it becomes a view that surely he is a product of the faction and that faction must also be irrational and not willing to listen to reason. It is a wrong thing to do, I admit. But I can not honestly say that it does not happen. I would like to think it doesn't but when it comes to people, you never know what they are capable of until they do it.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

 

However, I admit the fallacy of my memory, especially concerning Prospero Burns. The tone of it made it a struggle for me to read, not through difficulty but because it did not cultivate my interest the way Abnett's other works tend to do.

 

Funny, I was just the opposite in that I blazed through Prospero Burns and got so bored with Thousand Sons that I quit reading it before the halfway point.

[Kasper_Hawser]

LOL, I must admit Prospero Burns WAS difficult to read compared to the relatively straight forward nature of Thousand Sons. It took me a few reads before I could finally appreciate the structure and follow it properly. Seriously though, I would rather read that format again then go through the campy tone of William King who wrote the Ragnar Blackmane series.

 

@ Kol Sarek - Not that I want to discount your entire discussion about the hypocrisy of the Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons in regards to the treatment of Rune Priests and Librarians, but I think we better stop that there before we get into that old argument again. The fact is we will never know for sure until we get the Emperor's personal opinion of it. You are right, I pity the writer whom GW passes the ball to and says, "OK, your mission is to clear up the Rune Priest vs Librarian issue and appease the thousands of rabid Space Wolves fans (pardon the pun) and equally crazy Thousand Sons fans."

 

I completely agree that the "apparent" hypocrisy of the wolves in this matter works against Leman Russ. Until proven otherwise, I will chalk it up as a score to the Space Wolves detractors. Hope this is proof enough although I am Space Wolves enough in my gene seed right down to my wulfen claws, I am not quite rabid enough to accept that my favourite primarch is flawless and is the Emperor sanctioned bad ass executioner who can ignore Nikae as and when Leman pleases.

 

Without going through that argument, my personal belief is that Runer Priests ARE different, just that nobody can prove it.

 

In Fear To Tread, one thing to take into account is that at the time, the Blood Angels are very much attuned to the atheistic Imperial Truth. God I wanted to smack that Warden so many times as he kept on insisting on all the chaos tricks as being xenos tricks even when staring at a daemon in the face. The Blood Angels simply coudln't comprehend the supernatural (irony I know considering their primarch and their motif). The Wolves on the other hand, are not completely atheist and due to Fenrisian culture, are not only more open to the concept of maleficarum but may in the course of their fighting, already encountered chaos forces. That is why I believe they were reluctant to share their opinions regarding daemons and warp entities, let alone explaining their Rune Priests, whose powers whatever their origin, still resembles that of the warp. At least not until one of their own Captains, Amitt I believe, DARED to suggest the supernatural, even DARED to suggest Horus being traitor. Only then did they dare to reveal their mission to Sanguinus and gang, even revealing the fate of the Thousand Sons as well as the existence of chaos.

 

God that was epic, Sanguinus going just a hair's breath of killing a Blood Angel that was NOT MAD for daring to suggest Horus was a traitor. Big gigantic cookies and kudos to Sanguinus. Still, James Swallow tends to make his characters a little Mary Sue in my opinion, the way he writes Sanguinus is suspiciously familiar to Sergeant Rafen's character, who is the arguably Mary Sue of the questionable Blood Angels omnibus. Not to mention he called the wolf squad leader CAPTAIN Redknife. In reality, it should have been either a Wolf Lord or a Wolf Guard leading that pack.

 

Anyway, back to topic, Leman Russ and his wolves ability to use deceit is quite contradictory in my mind. On the one hand, I KNOW they are cunning and capable of feints, ambushes and surprise. On the other hand, Russ looks down on Alpharius and Magnus for otherwise using MAINLY deception as their main tools instead of conventional warfare. Damn, another detracting point for Russ. Things don't look too good for the Wolf King.

 

COME TO MY AID MY ANIMAL FRIENDS!!!!! Ahem, I mean "COME TO MY AID VLKA FENRYKA!" DON'T LET OUR PRIMARCH ACCUMULATE MORE DETRACTING POINTS!

 

Hmmm, I went through the Scars Episode V thread, apparently Russ is already regretting being duped by Horus for attacking Magnus. Dare I count it as brownie points for my dearly misunderstood primarch?

 

I think I read somewhere in Know No Fear, where Robuite Guilliman actually counts Russ as one of four primarchs/legions that Rob could win any war with if allied to that primarch. Surprising as I have never seen any fluff connecting the two legions. Why I am not sure, either he respects the Space Wolves win at all cost attitude or maybe he thinks the Wolves are extremely reliable allies in a conventional war. Given the Wolves tactical acumen as displayed in Night of the Wolf, I'm inclined to agree.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, sure they don't read Sun Tzu art of war, but they have their own Sagas to draw their war wisdom from.

 

By the way Kol Sarek, where do you get your name inspiration? Is it a Word Bearer? One of the possessed?

[Greyall]

The shallow image of the Space Wolves is dispelled the first time they appear in A Thousand Sons. Savages don't behave that way, following orders so strictly and with arrogance rather than boasting. And yet now that I re-think it, I don't see their 'savage' aspects - the howling, the crude manners or things like demon-faced leather masks - as a show. As Russ says himself, it's hard to remain so controlled. Which means the Wolves really tend towards their brutish ways yet are strong-willed enough to behave in a strictly professional way - sometimes even trying to hard, which tends to happen to people countering their true nature. Still very much admirable, though.

 

Russ is becoming one of my favourite Primarchs, mainly because he does try to do what's right, even when seeing himself - and being seen by the others - as an axe. And when you're an axe in the middle of a war, there's not much you can do that doesn't involve someone losing an arm. All you can hope for is to chop the right people's arm.

 

Right now, Russ is about to enter a critical phase and has said that he wants to discard all control and see where the anger takes him. So do I.

[Kasper_Hawser]

The shallow image of the Space Wolves is dispelled the first time they appear in A Thousand Sons. Savages don't behave that way, following orders so strictly and with arrogance rather than boasting. And yet now that I re-think it, I don't see their 'savage' aspects - the howling, the crude manners or things like demon-faced leather masks - as a show. As Russ says himself, it's hard to remain so controlled. Which means the Wolves really tend towards their brutish ways yet are strong-willed enough to behave in a strictly professional way - sometimes even trying to hard, which tends to happen to people countering their true nature. Still very much admirable, though.

 

Russ is becoming one of my favourite Primarchs, mainly because he does try to do what's right, even when seeing himself - and being seen by the others - as an axe. And when you're an axe in the middle of a war, there's not much you can do that doesn't involve someone losing an arm. All you can hope for is to chop the right people's arm.

 

Right now, Russ is about to enter a critical phase and has said that he wants to discard all control and see where the anger takes him. So do I.

 

Come about again. What is this critical phase about Russ wanting to "discard all control"? That would be tantamount of him losing the only self-redeeming aspect of the Wolves heavy handed tactics, whether it is in conventional warfare or psychic warfare. Oh dear God, does that mean that fighting the Thousand Sons has drained his soul more than we all thought? He didn't seem that way when talking to Kasper Hawser AFTER the invasion of Prospero, he seem to be accepting a grim reality that Space Marines will fight Space Marines again in the future, he just didn't envision the scale of the Heresy yet.

 

On another note, anyone got a clear idea WHEN exactly did the Wolves realise Horus had turned? Was it more or less straight away after Prospero? Or some time later when the Alpha Legion ambushed both the Wolves and the Scars and revealed their true colors? I guess a better question would be WHEN the Istvaan 3 massacre happened and Flight of the Einstein managed to bring the warning to the Emperor, followed by Istvaan V massacre.

 

As much as I like all these plot twists in the HH novels so far, I REALLY REALLY REALLY pray and hope we don't end up with the implication that Russ becomes a traitor in the end. 

[Greyall]

I think you can be cool about that last one, Russ will be seen as an ever-loyal son, if current fluff tone is kept.

 

Russ

 

 

Finds out Horus (and Valdor, but he only cares about Horus) tricked him into destroying the Thousand Sons instead of aprehending Magnus as the Emperor had ordered. Understandably, Russ gets all kinds of furious about it and says he's never felt angry before, and that he's thinking of letting himself go and see where it takes him. Unfortunately the Alpha Legion attacks and he can't just go rawring his and his legion's way into oblivion, so he's forced to think clearly for now. Still, he murders a Contemptor by elbowing him so that shows something.

 

 

All we know from him actually shows the Wolf Lord to seemingly become more lethargic or at least depressive. He doesn't get to Terra on time due to his decisions and later on lets himself get stabbed by the Lion. With all the changes to the fluff like it was the case with Vulkan, we'll have to wait and see. But right now things look a little grim for Russ. Actually, it's plausible to believe he might lose some of his loyal brothers' respect for acting in such apparently rash ways - maybe that's what leads him to take it (too) slow.

[daveNYC]

Deliverance Lost had a throwaway line by Corax and (I think) Dorn concerning the Wolves' mission to Prospero.  Spoiler: They're neither impressed nor surprised with the situation.

 

Just a question, what is Russ' flaw?

[Greyall]

What do you mean by 'flaw'? Genetics or personality-wise?

[daveNYC]

Personality wise.  In theory, none of the primarchs should have genetic flaws.  At least not in the way we think of geneseed as having flaws.  Primarchs would definitely have... shall we say, quirks or traits, but since they were all designed by the Emperor, we can probably assume that these are features and not bugs.  Not in the way that the various pigmentation issues or other malfunctioning Space Marine organs would be considered flaws.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Leman Russ personality flaws? Not to sound arrogant but no, he doesn't seem to have any psychological issues. Not like Angron's homicidal tendencies or Kurze's problematic prophetic vision driving him nuts or Fulgrim's peacock preening. In fact, Russ seems relatively down to earth, even when talking to a potential chaos agent like Kasper. But it depends on your point of view, especially on how he sees himself as the Emperor's executioner, than you could argue he is so arrogant as to think he can order the destruction of the Thousand Sons. In his defence, he did have the Emperor's orders, which was then twisted by Horus as a kill order.

As a legion, he is quite close to all his companies. The only other personality flaw I can think off is his overtendency to play the barbarian king instead of the truly wise and intelligent primarch he is. Tends to annoy the Custodes Valdor and the other legion commanders. :) 

I remember one scene where the following was said:

Custodes: ..... this was done to keep the wolves at bay. I speak metamorphically my Lord. 

Leman Russ: Its OK. I also sometimes disembowel metamorphically.

In terms of Astartes reputation, Russ and his legion have the "Win no matter the cost" reputation, which by mortal standards, can be quite extreme, such as the slaughter of an entire eldar craftworld, or plunging the Oelemic Quietude Satelite Station from orbit unto the planet, literally cracking it open. They do so strictly within their victory parameters though, and will not hesitate to aid any expeditionary fleet that needs their help.

As mentioned above, Russ and his wolves do try to minimise human casualties at least, even if it means slaughtering the entire xenos until there's nothing left. They are willing to do the dirty work as quickly and without fuss as possible. This has caused their reputation to suffer but unlike most, they don't care about their reputation and are quietly confident in their role without bragging it to the galaxy.

He could suffer from controlling the Wulfen though, the Cannis Helix which causes every Space Wolf to possibly mutate to a wolf like creature. Not even Sanguinus himself was immune to the black rage. That's conjecture though, at no time has it been mentioned that Leman Russ ever suffered loss of control physically to the Cannis Helix.

[Greyall]

@Dave: True that. Well, personality-wise, the main flaw I find about Russ is that he embodies the 'executioner' thing a bit too much. He relishes in the position, if not in the executions themselves. By this I don't mean he's full of himself, simply that he's too invested in the job, it makes him narrow-minded and short-sighted, prone to talk to his brothers as if he was a Custodian an not another Primarch, and not eager to listen to their side at all.

 

Then again, he was sort of right about the Thousand Sons. Though he was also part of the reason they went downhill.

[Excessus]

Yeah, like we'd hear about LRs flaws from Space Wolf fanboys... :D

[Greyall]

Well, truth be told he's one of the least flawed Primarchs, all in all. Plus with karma now turning its fists of fate towards the Wolves, things will get worse for the fanboys before they get better.

[Kol Saresk]

But usually it is the least flawed who can be cast in the most negative light. Especially when they put so much effort into cultivating an image of being severely flawed. Although the irony is that while I was skipping back through A Thousand Sons, Magnus makes the statement that Russ wear a mask of savagery, but he never makes a similar comment about the Wolves themselves, as if he were making a distinction in personality between the Primarch and the Legion.

[Greyall]

Hmm...from what I've seen and read until now, the Wolves seem to emulate Russ thoroughly. Are you sure Magnus' comment only referring Russ isn't because of context or something? I can't remember Thousand Sons all that well, but he seems to be able to perceive the Wolve's true danger beneath their 'savagery'. Or rather, the true extent of that savagery (I prefer to call it fury).

 

Russ casts a negative light on himself more through his actions than his personality. I know this doesn't seem to make much sense, but his big flaw seem to derive from context, from his position as executioner and the blindly ruthless way in which he carries his duty. Other than that, he seems to be a generally great guy, very honourable, actually rather cool-headed and with some good values.

[Kol Saresk]

At that specific point in time, it is only directed towards Russ. I merely made the note from the rest of the book, the Space Wolves are portrayed as savages through and through, almost as if saying while Russ himself wears a mask of savagery, the Wolves do not. Now, there is nothing concrete and I am not trying to state facts. The Wolves are an awesome Legion. Like all Legions, they have their ifs and buts and moments in the spotlight(both good and bad), but were Magnus specifically states where Russ is apparently pretending, the rest of his views towards the Wolves themselves says they are not. Where Russ is the Primarch who pretends to be savage, it is almost like saying the Wolves are savages who pretend to be Astartes. And considering their success, I'd say it is more than just a role, but a cloak they are able to slip on and off whenever they need to. Be savage on the battlefield, and the Astartes when not.

 

The exact specific quote I referring to is on page 217.

 

"Russ with the bestial mask he thought fooled everybody with its bellicose savagery"

 

Now, I do feel the need to stress that A Thousand Sons is a view of the Wolves at their worst, so it falls into that "Those with the least flaws can be cast in the most negative lights". I stress this because I am not trying to start a fight, I am merely presenting a point of view as it exists within the novels.

[Spinsanity]

I suggest you read Betrayer (or at least chapter 10, which is where the Night of the Wolf is introduced, and shows the discussion between Angron and Russ that came before the fight broke out); there are a few notes regarding Russ' supposed role as Imperial Executioner which are quite interesting...

 

1. It seems quite a few (if not most) Primarchs and Legionaires wondered why the Wolves would have been chosen, with valid points showing how they weren't necessarily up to the task (for example, considering their numbers, how would have they fared against the UMs or WBs?)

2. Russ kinds of admits he came on his own and was never asked by the Emperor to rein-in Angron; he assumed it was his place to come in and patronise Angron. We just don't know where the assuming begins: is he really the Emperor's executioner figuring out in advance what his father wanted him to do, or is he just an ambitious bully who took on the role (of executioner) as an excuse?

 

I also remeber reading, in Prospero Burns, that he had spies and agents infiltrated or otherwise reporting on pretty much every other Legion, and he claimed the other Primarchs did the same (thus confirming Hawser was a TS spy). Is there any indication in any of the other volumes that this is so? Or might the Wolves be the only Legion that harbors so much mistrust towards the other Legions/Primarchs that they would dare do this kind of treachery?

[depthcharge12]

A lot of this is TL; DR for me haha

 

but one point that stuck out to me Hawser was that you said you avoid the books with traitor primarchs. Why is that? Are you afraid that you might come over to the dark side? :P

 

 

In all seriousness you should definitely read the ones about the traitors. They come off less as mustache twirlers, and more as shades of grey what would you do if stuck in this hell hole?

 

Some of the loyalists primarchs portrayed even come across as hard headed and irrational. The only primarchs that are loyalists that I enjoyed their character were Sanguinus and Guilliman (and while I love the Lion and ADBs stuff on him, the other authors kinda butchered him).

 

 

The traitor books lend wonderful perspective

[Greyall]

 I am not trying to start a fight

 

We've been discussing Space Wolves too seriously, it seems. I hope that wasn't meant for me, mate, sorry if I'm coming across as a belligerent fanboy. That'd be a massive fail on my part, I'm pretty neutral about the Wolves.