Stonerhino Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 The problem is not how easily Primarchs are hurt in some stories. Its the time when they are shown to be way over the top that's the problems. Consider that Angron's skeletal system is strong enough to support 410+ tons being stomped onto him. Then imagine how much strength Russ would have had to deliver to shatter Magnus' arm or how much force Ka'Bandha's whip needed to break both of Sanguinius' legs. If you take Angron's nonsensical toughness as standard. Then every Primarch should be unkillable, tank jugging and pointless characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 UNLESS hit by another Primarch. You've hit on my issue with things completely Stonerhino. Primarchs, by virtue of their own actions, need to be mythical in stature. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Curze dies to an assassine, Dorn dies to some random CSMs and some of Vulcan's deaths include getting shot by Eldar weapons. It is not just other Primarchs that kill them. Its everyday super beings doing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Well, Curze lets himself get killed. At least in my mind he does. Dorn, we dont know the count on. Vulkan...dies too much, I dont like him getting killed, nay SHREDDED, by a few shuriken pistols, not at all... I dont know, I get why, for the story, but the how? Sometimes it doesnt work for me. Personal hang up really, I accept my failing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 The how is that Primarchs are actually mortal. Cause enough damage and they die. That is a good thing. Its when primarchs shrug off damage that should kill them (Like say a titan's stomp). That cause us to have these conversations. Gods in their abilities but still mortal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 They are hyper resilient. Any Marine with as many hits as Guilliman took would've been down for good. It's just that they're not bulletproof and, in this instance, neither was Rob's armour. But resiliency isn't resistance. Primarchs can take a world of hurt and either keep walking or regain their health in very short time. But they can't resist all the blows they take - in that sense, their best bet is skill. Also, think about it, Bolters are incredibly powerful weapons.You stick a grenade inside a Primarch and it'll hurt any of them. Corax holds exploding grenades in his hands while he punches Iron Warriors to death. It makes his hands feel a numb but otherwise he's fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Native Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 The whole Primarch resiliency issue is PIS in reverse. Authors want to illustrate the power of a Primarch and with no set bounds regarding how powerful they are - they are relatively free to employ hyperbole to do this. I've got no problem with Angron holding a Titan foot from stomping Lorgar. And I have no problem thinking that several packs of Space Wolves could gun him down with nothing but Bolters. He tore himself up crawling through rock - Bolters would easily blow chunks out of him. He'd die - it'd just take a hell of a lot of bolt rounds to do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I'm fine with "enuff bolta" being able to put in a Primarch down, it's just I think EB should be considerably more than ten. And it's not just Corax. Perturabo wades through Imperial Fists and Iron Hands in "Crimson Fist" and "Angel Exterminatus", Fulgrim in his underwear tanks sonic cannons, thunder hammers, and power fists... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Dorn didn't die to "some random CSMs", he died to an entire battlebarge worth of CSMs, plus whatever reinforcements tehy were pulling in when they had a Primarch tear through their decks. The problem is not Primarchs being shown to be too weak or too strong, the problem is that they are shown "in person" at all. They were meant to be super awesome figures of ancient legend. Now they are protagonists in a story, so they have to falter and be in danger or act foolish to keep the drama up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Uh guys, I think we are getting MAJOR off topic here. Lets pull back to something Russ or Wolves related instead of discussing the whole primarch power level issue. Surely an extremely interesting subject but majorly off tandem in regards to Russ characterisation. Whether the hundred bolters would have killed Angron is beside the point: the motivation of Russ in instigating the Night of the Wolf is more the question here: either he was a self righteous pretentios prick who thought he was special executioner therefore had the right to do so (seems to be the major opinion here), or in my small humble opinion, a misguided if well intended attempt to educate Angron on the importance of other things other than bloodlust and skulltaking. Either case, Russ goofed up. LOL, come to think of it, Goofy is a dog right? A hyuk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Either he was a self righteous pretentios prick who thought he was special executioner therefore had the right to do so (seems to be the major opinion here), or in my small humble opinion, a misguided if well intended attempt to educate Angron on the importance of other things other than bloodlust and skulltaking.Having good intentions doesn't keep you from being a self righteous prick. And vice versea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Either he was a self righteous pretentios prick who thought he was special executioner therefore had the right to do so (seems to be the major opinion here), or in my small humble opinion, a misguided if well intended attempt to educate Angron on the importance of other things other than bloodlust and skulltaking.Having good intentions doesn't keep you from being a self righteous prick. And vice versea. Point taken. I meant the second misguided part as of the Big Brother complex we all talked about much earlier, as opposed to interfering JUST because he is the so called executioner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 It could be a Big Brother complex, sure. I think however he (and the Legion) simply had an inflated sense of self. Of course Angron would back down. Of course Magnus would bend his knee. Of course they could keep a watch on other Legions, and of course they had a reputation. Russ did what he did with Angron not because Rob didnt think of it as well (in the original fluff it was Rob who raised the concern) but likely because Rob wanted to follow an official process, meanwhile Russ felt that he was official...enough. Its a play on the stereotypical macho behavior you expect out of 'Vikings' (boasting, bragging, insulting others) taken to extremes because they are Astartes on top of their cultural point of reference and there's something to be said for being a transhuman in the first place, noted for being 'wild and savage'. Again however, MY point of reference, my central truth, is that the concept of an enforcer, a bully, an 'executioner' among a species (Homo Astartes) and the Primarchs, is essentially beyond unbelievable, and in the face of just what we as external reader's already knew, is comically bad. The big E, and you can assume Malcador by extension, knew full well just how bad Angron was, you think for a second they would send Russ to 'chat'? Not a chance. He took it upon himself, in his ignorance, to help one who wanted no such thing. Im not going to touch the executioner bit anymore, to me its simply impossible to discuss. I cannot reconcile it with my view of the setting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 As far as Big Brother complex goes...I may have a somewhat skewed view of the term, being that I am a big brother myself and I will allow that perhaps there were times when a discussion with a little brother might have escalated to what could have been called fisticuffs. So I don't see "Big Brother complex" as meaning 'I am a generous and caring sort who always has his brothers best interests at hearts and always acts in the wisest way possible." Then of course there's the most famous Big Brother of them all, from 1984... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Yeah, I think its more the latter Wade. Its a 'I know better, I am better, you will listen'. Not a 'hey pal, lets tussle, because i think your dumb.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Actually I missed your reference to 1984 Big Brother. what does that mean? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Look up the book 1984. Big Brother is a hyper invasive government. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3488977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I don't think that's the kind of 'care' Russ shows. Prick or not, his intentions and his goals for his brothers matter. He doesn't just view them as instruments in the Emperor's plan, my view is that he genuinely sees loyalty to the Imperial family as the best path for his brothers to tread. Though I can see how the Wolves sending teams to watch over other Primarchs must look like. It's one of the first signs of that 40K dilemma: control or (eventually) chaos? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3489040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Look up the book 1984. Big Brother is a hyper invasive government. Don't look up the book, buy and read it. Well written, chilling, and as a bonus, short. 40k's grimdark owes a lot to elements from the book. Russ' behavior works best when it's a little from column A and a little from column B. Make it all about him being brotherly and you end up with super lovable primarch guy who is just the best guy ever, make it all about an executioner policing his brothers and he just turns into the annoying kid that ratted you out to the teacher back in school. Mix them properly though and you get a road where the cobblestones are good intentions, but the mortar is pure character flaw. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3489059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherSide Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Though I can see how the Wolves sending teams to watch over other Primarchs must look like. It's one of the first signs of that 40K dilemma: control or (eventually) chaos? Yup, that's one of the most hilarious things I've read to date. Lorgar gets Custodians, but Roboute and Sanginius get SWs (ROLF). Btway... Where are Lion's SWs? Or Khan's SWs? If anyone should be getting "baby sitters" it's the Khan, but no... As usual, the authors add idiosyncratic fluff like that when they feel it suits the stories. As a consequence the books are not consistent. Just as the case with the powers of the Primarchs... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3801144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Well let's look at it. A Watch Pack being sent to the Lion. In Unremembered Empire, a Wolf chose to duel the Lion just satisfy honor. The Lion incapacitated him because Guilliman asked nicely. Now imagine the scenario without Guilliman around an only the I Legion as witnesses. You know, the Legion that decided "We have Traitor brethren. Hide the secret at all costs. Even if it means killing other Imperials." As for the Khan, it took the better part of four years for Guilliman's watch pack to reach him because the Ruinstorm was so severe that it added three years and change to the journey, even though it didn't exist yet when they started. Inversely, the White Scars had already been isolated in Chondax for a year already when the packs were sent out. And as soon as the warp storm that isolated them was dispersed, they were gone. I'll leave deductive reasoning to fill in the blanks. Also, Lorgar's detail was ordered by the Emperor. The Watch Packs were sent out by the order of Malcador. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3801174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherSide Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Well let's look at it. A Watch Pack being sent to the Lion. In Unremembered Empire, a Wolf chose to duel the Lion just satisfy honor. The Lion incapacitated him because Guilliman asked nicely. Now imagine the scenario without Guilliman around an only the I Legion as witnesses. You know, the Legion that decided "We have Traitor brethren. Hide the secret at all costs. Even if it means killing other Imperials." As for the Khan, it took the better part of four years for Guilliman's watch pack to reach him because the Ruinstorm was so severe that it added three years and change to the journey, even though it didn't exist yet when they started. Inversely, the White Scars had already been isolated in Chondax for a year already when the packs were sent out. And as soon as the warp storm that isolated them was dispersed, they were gone. I'll leave deductive reasoning to fill in the blanks. Also, Lorgar's detail was ordered by the Emperor. The Watch Packs were sent out by the order of Malcador. Right... Malcador: "We must send watch dogs to all the legions..." Russ: "Umh, the Lion won't like having watch dogs around. My other brothers won't mind, but he will." Malcador: "You sure? Oh well, we musn't upset the Lion. I guess we'll just trust him. But we won't trust the others so you better send some wolves to Rob and Sang." Very plausible indeed... In regards to Khan I guess anything is possible. The fact still remains that the entire (give or take) SW legion was quite close by. Shouldn't Russ's first order of business, once he found them, have been to send his little squad to the Khan? What better way to determine the Khan's loyalty (or not). The next time you read about the Scars, do you expect to see Watch Wolves in his legion? And why would Malcador not use Custodians? He speaks with the authority of the Emperor and there is more than one instance when he has Custodians following him around outside of Terra. The whole idea with the SW babysitters is just comical... Khan: "Uhm, Malcador... I have some bad news... again..." Mal: "What!? Not again!? This is the fourth team that's been killed. Do you realize how long it takes for replacments to be sent out? You really have to be more careful with your allies. Russ won't like this one bit. I guess they died in combat against the Emperor's foes, just like the others, huh?" Khan: "Ehh... Died in combat... against Emperor's foes... Right you are! Won't happen again." Mal: "Humpf, just what you said last time. And the time before that... If I didn't trust you were loyal I'd suspect something fishy going on, he he" Khan: "Ha ha, that is so funny. You are a funny man, Malcador. Well, I really have to get going now. Send my regards to Russ and Dorn." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3801443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I think the Lion didn't get the pack but Girlyman did. Plus the Emps never doubted the Lion according to Vengeful Spirit: Emps: "Yo Malca-homie, the Lion don't need no dogs on him. He an' his crew been doin shizz before anyone got up in this hood." Malcador: "Word." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3801470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Why do people assume (or appear to) that all the Watch packs found there way to all the Primarchs? The Lion was dancing after the VIII for two years, then magicked his way across the galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3801475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Why do people assume (or appear to) that all the Watch packs found there way to all the Primarchs? The Lion was dancing after the VIII for two years, then magicked his way across the galaxy. Well the one that went after Sanguinius took quite a while to go find him, so it's reasonable some got lost or destroyed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/11/#findComment-3801495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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