The Complexity of Leman Russ (Spoiler heavy)

[Kol Saresk]

Authority of the Emperor is not the same as being the Emperor. The Custodes only obey one voice. Period. No ifs, no ands, no butts. No matter what.

 

Anything else is Warseer propaganda and needs to be purged with extreme prejudice.

[TheOtherSide]

I think the Lion didn't get the pack but Girlyman did.

 

 

Plus the Emps never doubted the Lion according to Vengeful Spirit:

 

 

Emps: "Yo Malca-homie, the Lion don't need no dogs on him. He an' his crew been doin shizz before anyone got up in this hood."

 

Malcador: "Word."

 

Emp: "Hey man, we need to send some Custodes to watch Lorgar. I don't trust that guy..."

Mal: "Right you are Sire. Why don't we send some clandestine agents to the other fleets to keep tabs, just in case?"

Emp: "What!? That's ridiculous. I trust them all completely. You do know I can discern future events, right? If any one of them would betray me I'm pretty sure I'd see it in at least one alternative future..."

Mal: "Oh yeah, that's right. Forgot about that. Never mind then..."

 

Some 60 odd years later...

Mal: "Why don't we send some agents to the other fleets to keep tabs, just in case?"

Emp: "Excellent idea! Definitely send some to that Empire building Rob."

Mal: " Why not be on the safe side and send some to the Lion and Khan as well?"

Emp: "What!? That's ridiculous. I trust them completely. You do know I can discern future events, right? If any one of them would betray me I'm pretty sure I'd see it in at least one alternative future..."

Mal: "Uhm... Never mind, Sire"

[TheOtherSide]

Authority of the Emperor is not the same as being the Emperor. The Custodes only obey one voice. Period. No ifs, no ands, no butts. No matter what.

 

Anything else is Warseer propaganda and needs to be purged with extreme prejudice.

 

Well, Malcador is very cunning and competent. Maybe he could/would/should make his voice sound like the Emp's...

 

Mal: "Go and observe on my behalf"

Custodes: "Yes Sire! Right away Sire! May I ask why you're standing behind the drapes Sire?"

Mal: "No you may NOT! A soldier is not to ask why, but to do or die. Now get!"

[depthcharge12]

 

Authority of the Emperor is not the same as being the Emperor. The Custodes only obey one voice. Period. No ifs, no ands, no butts. No matter what.

Anything else is Warseer propaganda and needs to be purged with extreme prejudice.

 

 

Well, Malcador is very cunning and competent. Maybe he could/would/should make his voice sound like the Emp's...

 

Mal: "Go and observe on my behalf"

Custodes: "Yes Sire! Right away Sire! May I ask why you're standing behind the drapes Sire?"

Mal: "No you may NOT! A soldier is not to ask why, but to do or die. Now get!"

 

"Don't worry about the man behind the curtain!"

 

 

 

Ahh it's not everyday you can make a wizard of Oz quote.

[Daemon2027]

How do we know those packs were not sent and killed en route, lost in the warp, not very well received, or gone to the wrong part of the Legion? I mean the watch pack may have met up with Corswain instead of going to the Primarch.

 

Or maybe Malcador thought it best to send a couple of covert agents, like say two of the knight errants, to Caliban to see what was going on...

[Wulfkry]

holy thread resurrection batman!!!

 

I felt that the astartes are a more... consumable resource that custodes.  Perhaps lorgar got custodes since he had already been a problem before with his god worshipping so the big E wanted to let him know he was super serious by sending his own personal bodyguard.  The wolves were probably viewed as the right tool for some primarchs while others like the knights errant were seen as a better fit by malcador.  Thats just my reasoning to try to make all the various authors fit in my universe of 30k/40k.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Custodes were attached to Lorgar by the Emperor after Monarchia, 50 years before the Heresy....Custodes kept on Terra, Wolves are "Chaos Canaries", which are intended to warn if any other primarchs are traitors and attempt (even in the fluff we've seen, the packs acknowledge it's unlikely) to kill a primarch. What we've not been made aware of, is if they had a reporting schedule.

 

One thing in the thread that got me wondering, is do we know for definite that all the loyalist had packs sent to them? Ruling out Dorn and Russ to start, Manus dead, Vulcan unaccounted for and Corax returned for the gene-seed- we know that Guiliman and Sang did have them so only leaves Lion and the Khan? Possibly never met up due to the DA's activities and Scars actually contact the Wolves, although following Mal and the Emp's chat in Vengeful Spirit, the only concern from the Emp is as to how the Khan may still rebel

[Kol Saresk]

Actually A D-B has hinted that the Master of Mankind will introduced a Watch-Pack for Dorn. Meaning that yes, everyone got one. It doesn't mean that all them got where they were supposed to go or survived the arrival.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm incredibly interested in understanding why some watch packs just attended meetings and the like, as liaisons. Then you get Guilliman's pack, who insist on sleeping in his living room. 

 

 

It's almost as if the VI Legion is that cousin we all have, who doesn't know when to go home from Thanksgiving.

[depthcharge12]

It's almost as if the VI Legion is that cousin we all have, who doesn't know when to go home from Thanksgiving.

 

Hnnnnngh.

[Stonerhino]

I'm incredibly interested in understanding why some watch packs just attended meetings and the like, as liaisons. Then you get Guilliman's pack, who insist on sleeping in his living room. 

 

 

It's almost as if the VI Legion is that cousin we all have, who doesn't know when to go home from Thanksgiving.

It seems that each Primarch got a different pack depending on "Threat/risk level".  For example Sanguinius gets a captain equiv + squad and Rune Priest; who tread very lightly (read as high threat/risk).  Its funny however that they do this in a book titled Fear to Tread, lol.  Then we see Guilliman's pack is just a veteran squad with a squad leader; Who are much more "In your face" (read as low threat/risk).  We even have seen that Alpharius only got a champion with a few other Wolves with him.  From ADB we also know that Dorn is geting a "Named" pack, wether or not that means anything is here say untill we get the short that suposed to be coming out soon + Master of Mankind.

 

I like the "Chaos Canaries" idea but you have to keep it in context.  Having a squad of Wolves show up and who will strike even if they know they can't win.  Is a huge threat that can't just be ignored.  Even more so for the traitors before the HH really kicks off.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's not a huge threat at all. They'd just die to the Primarch or body guard before the heresy could

Continue

[Wade Garrett]

Yeah, in Unremembered Empire, Night Haunter, who was already cut up from duking it out with Rob and the Lion pretty much bounced the Watch pack off the walls as some light cardio after his working sets.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah, in Unremembered Empire, Night Haunter, who was already cut up from duking it out with Rob and the Lion pretty much bounced the Watch pack off the walls as some light cardio after his working sets.

I think one of the Watch Pack got a hit or two in, but like Sheed Ranko says, "That's all you'll get."

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i think the threat the Wolf packs held wasnt in their ability to terminate a Primarch (which I think is beyond a squad of Marines, regardless of Legion. except the AL as they level 20 troll masters) but in their ability to report back of a Primarch's betrayal.

 

It was a band aid measure by Malcador, VERY doomed to fail, but using what disposable tools he had.

 

WLK

[Tranc]

Again my limited understanding is to about 5 novels:

 

Prospero Burns (Space Wolves)

Flight of the Einstein, (Death Guard loyalists)

Fear To Tread (Blood angels, cameo from Space Wolves)

Know No Fear (Ultramarines)

Descent of Angels (Dark Angels)

Hi Kasper,

 

I haven't gone through all 12 pages of this thread, but I just wanted to recommend that you read

1. Horus Rising (by Dan Abnett, the one that started it all, and still among the best)

2. Anything by Aaron Dembski-Bowden that you can get your hands on: First Heretic, Betrayer, Savage Weapons, to name a few.  The first two I mentioned are in the same story arc as Know No Fear, and as others have said there is an interesting scene between Russ and Angron in Betrayer.

 

Now the million dollar question that may or may not be related to Russ' complexity: where did he depart to in 211.M31 and why?

[Excessus]

 

Yeah, in Unremembered Empire, Night Haunter, who was already cut up from duking it out with Rob and the Lion pretty much bounced the Watch pack off the walls as some light cardio after his working sets.

I think one of the Watch Pack got a hit or two in, but like Sheed Ranko says, "That's all you'll get."

 

You mean, "said"... *cry*

[Stonerhino]

Yeah, in Unremembered Empire, Night Haunter, who was already cut up from duking it out with Rob and the Lion pretty much bounced the Watch pack off the walls as some light cardio after his working sets.

So true...  Kurze frolics through squads of Ultramarines and Dark Angels and manages to kill a single Wolf...  But it must have been his injuries, since we know he jumped off of his deathbed to fight the Lion as equals in Prince of Crows.  A few cuts from a gladius surely would slow him down to the point that he couldn't slay more Wolves.

[Augustus]

 

 

Yeah, in Unremembered Empire, Night Haunter, who was already cut up from duking it out with Rob and the Lion pretty much bounced the Watch pack off the walls as some light cardio after his working sets.

So true... Kurze frolics through squads of Ultramarines and Dark Angels and manages to kill a single Wolf... But it must have been his injuries, since we know he jumped off of his deathbed to fight the Lion as equals in Prince of Crows. A few cuts from a gladius surely would slow him down to the point that he couldn't slay more Wolves.

Lol. Liked.

[Phoebus]

I'd say that Russ does have a tendency to be too clever for his own good.

Consider the Night of the Wolf. Russ started a full Legion on Legion war that got who knows how many Wolves and World Eaters killed because he thought he could teach Angron an important lesson about teamwork, harmony, and the magic of friendship.

Let me reiterate that. He thought he could TEACH ANGRON A LESSON. He looked at this giant slab of muscle and half suppressed homicidal lunacy, twitching because of the Angry Machines in its brain, and thought it just needed a little show and tell from Leman the Wise to understand it should do the smart thing. Which is the thing Russ wants it to do.

Result: Boatloads of dead Astartes, one severly beaten Viking Primarch, and one gladiator Primarch swagging it up because he beat up his brother, Russ's lesson flying so far over his head it's probably in orbit.

That's what being all clever and philosophical while pretending to be a barbarian gets you.

You have to take the context behind his decision into consideration, though. Angron had just committed the Ghenna Scouring, and was facing censure. Depending on how you take your background, it's not unreasonable to assume that there could be serious consequences for Angron - who was already violating the Emperor's orders on the Butcher's Nails.

With that in mind, Russ's decision isn't some ludicrous attempt to "reason" with Angron vis-a-vis violence on a mass scale. It's more like a desperate attempt to get him back in line before (and this is assuming you're of the Wolves-as-Executioners camp) Russ is ordered to perform a duty that doesn't (given the attitude shown in Prospero Burns) isn't necessarily fill him with joy.

[Phoebus]

... and even in their novel's trailer [the Space Wolves are] explained as the one Legion badass enough to take down other Legions, despite that not making a huge amount of sense, given that they're smaller than most, ...  

 

This actually doesn't bother me.  For one thing, they could be smaller than other legions precisely because they've had to take down two other ones.  In a setting that routinely asks its readers to fill in the gaps for an author (this is not me trying to sound like a jerk, I promise), this is really not that big a deal.  But even if that's not the case, we saw that the Space Wolves were given enough Imperial Support (Custodes, Sisters of Silence) to gain an edge on the Thousand Sons.  One has to assume that any lawful sanction they carried out in the past (if any) received a similar amount of support.

 

They're also breaking the Edict of Nikea, which is something the series really should deal with sooner rather than later.

 

I know topics like this are addressed and discussed in your meetings.  Still, you have no idea how glad I am to hear a member of the team actually state this out loud. 

[Kol Saresk]

1.) There is nothing that indicates the Night of the Wolf was after the Emperor's warning to Angron. Actually, the context would almost suggest the Night of the Wolf was the warning.

 

2.) is there a confirmed source that says the Wolves were involve with the Lost Legions? As far as I know, Prospero Burns is a Long Fang that says they are willing to do it, but not that they were involved, The First heretic has a Word Bearer reminiscing how they were involved and then speculates the survivors were swept into the Ultramarines and then Forgeworld's timeline is well, irrelevant as it happens after The First Heretic, which happens after the Lost Legions became Lost. So is there something new that I am not aware of?

[Phoebus]

Betrayer, Chapter 10:

"They'd met at Malkoya, on the fields beyond the dead city of the same name. The World Eaters, battered and bleeding from Ghenna's compliance, formed ragged lines before the assembled Space Wolves Legion."

Emphasis added by me. Beyond that, where the Space Wolves and the Lost Legions are concerned, I think my approach was conservative enough:

... assuming you're of the Wolves-as-Executioners camp ...

Which, obviously, I am. But I didn't offer it as a concrete fact. I still stand by my interpretation of Russ's overall motivations, though. Whether you subscribe to the Executioner idea or not, I think it's fairly obvious that Russ thought Angron had crossed a line, was in dire danger of more than just a stern talking-to, and decided to do something about it - sanctioned or not.

Anyways, if you wish me to outline my thoughts on the Executioner/Lost Legion topic here, I'm more than willing to.

My error was in interpreting the old fluff as placing Ghenna closer to the Heresy: as one of Angron's "last offenses" (if you will) before Horus brought him to his fold, immediately prior to Isstvan III. In Betrayer, this is the clear timeline:

"Imperial records stated that two primarchs came to Angron, both claiming to have been sent by the Master of Mankind. The first arrived soon after Angron joined his Legion. The second wouldn't come until almost a century later. By then, it would be too late.

Russ was the first. ..."

And in the Index Astartes article for the World Eaters were censured following Ghenna, but "Angron paid little heed to this ... [the World Eaters'] slaughter continued across the galaxy, ... Many of Angron's brother Primarchs voiced their concerns to the Emperor, and now the Master of Mankind made a fatal error. He dispatched Horus ..."

That order seems weird. Deliverance Lost says that the Emperor would tell Corax about both of his missing brothers. How could he tell him about both if one wasn't even missing yet?

I mean, I know Laurie has already weighed in on this, but the explanation given just doesn't make sense given the scene in the novel. If the idea is that the Emperor is referring to Missing Primarch #2 and Alpharius not being found yet, then "that is a conversation for another day" is a pretty weird thing to say right before getting right into that conversation.

[Phoebus]

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, even criminals have their own sense of honour. That's why to measure honour, we have to look at the background of the person we are judging, not by our own.

 

i also read that particular short story. LOL, for a so-called knight, the Lion did a first rate job of backstabing Kurze with a big effing sword.

 

Remember that last part where that Dark Angel was asked where his sword was?

 

"I left it in a primarch's spine" (Kurze.)

 

That's not quite how it went.  Curze summoned the Lion to relay to him words from Horus.  They fell on deaf ears, and the Lion ended the temporary truce between the Dark Angels and the Night Lords by running Curze through with his sword.

 

Fast forward to about a minute or two later, and Curze was choking the Lion while smashing his head against the ground.  At that point, Corswain leaps atop of Curze and stabs him through the spine.

 

 

 

The sort that fights 2-on-1 in a duel situation...=p

I never thought of that. Lion opened with a sucker punch, he and Corswain double teamed Curze..wow. Johnson literally used every underhanded trick except throwing a handful of sand in the Haunter's eyes.

 

The nice thing about this incident is that the Lion acknowledges his strike as underhanded, and that tells us a lot about his character.  

 

Personally, I think Russ and the Lion are more alike than they think.  That is, the Lion is as much as chivalrous knight as Russ is a barbarian warlord.  Both are more than the product of their adopted homeworld.  Their environment has certainly shaped them in certain ways, and instilled them with certain ideals, but having been exposed to the Imperium and introduced to the Emperor's tutelage, they have become primarchs first and foremost.

As such, I think the Lion takes knightly honor seriously insofar as it is part of the culture, society, and psychology of the warriors he leads.  It also serves to reinforce discipline among his fighting forces, and it probably serves for propaganda purposes as well: friends and enemies alike might respect Lion El'Jonson and his fair, honorable warriors more so than if they were a bunch of sadistic raiders.

 

To someone like the Lion, you can't waste an opportunity to kill someone like Curze.  A war is being fought, against the Warmaster who was once most trusted by the Emperor.  In this war, three legions have basically been eliminated and Ultramar has ruined - all via treason.  The Dark Angels have been kept occupied by an enemy who refuses to fight them directly and has instead chosen to take out manufacturing centers and the like.  And that's before you take into consideration just what the Night Lords are capable of, and whether it's moral to actually let someone like Konrad Curze walk away to continue doing what it is he does.

 

So yeah, I have no doubt that, had things worked out better for the Lion, Alajos and/or Corswain may have approached their primarch and pointed out that what he did wasn't very knight-like... and his response would have been something like a sarcastic, "Really?"