The Complexity of Leman Russ (Spoiler heavy)

[Kol Saresk]

No, it's just a general statement since when Wolves get thrown into the mix, my paranoia-meter starts hitting red zone due to past experiences.

[Wade Garrett]

I'd say that Russ does have a tendency to be too clever for his own good.

Consider the Night of the Wolf. Russ started a full Legion on Legion war that got who knows how many Wolves and World Eaters killed because he thought he could teach Angron an important lesson about teamwork, harmony, and the magic of friendship.

Let me reiterate that. He thought he could TEACH ANGRON A LESSON. He looked at this giant slab of muscle and half suppressed homicidal lunacy, twitching because of the Angry Machines in its brain, and thought it just needed a little show and tell from Leman the Wise to understand it should do the smart thing. Which is the thing Russ wants it to do.

Result: Boatloads of dead Astartes, one severly beaten Viking Primarch, and one gladiator Primarch swagging it up because he beat up his brother, Russ's lesson flying so far over his head it's probably in orbit.

That's what being all clever and philosophical while pretending to be a barbarian gets you.

[Greyall]

Aye, the Wolf is self-righteous indeed.

[Kasper_Hawser]

A lot of this is TL; DR for me haha

but one point that stuck out to me Hawser was that you said you avoid the books with traitor primarchs. Why is that? Are you afraid that you might come over to the dark side?

In all seriousness you should definitely read the ones about the traitors. They come off less as mustache twirlers, and more as shades of grey what would you do if stuck in this hell hole?

Some of the loyalists primarchs portrayed even come across as hard headed and irrational. The only primarchs that are loyalists that I enjoyed their character were Sanguinus and Guilliman (and while I love the Lion and ADBs stuff on him, the other authors kinda butchered him).

The traitor books lend wonderful perspective

@ Depth Charge. In the words of the Wolf King, "I recognise my failing and am sure to correct it" in regards to reading books from the traitor primarchs perspective. I guess in my core, I am a happy ending kind of guy, which I KNOW will never happen in the 40K world. Reading about the loyalist primarchs frankly is depressing enough especially since we more or less know their ultimate fates. I'm also reluctant to read Ferrus stories because I know that he will be the first victim of that ultimately tragic civil war. Same with Fulgrim. Hell, reading ANY material on the Lion makes me want to tear my hair out and scream "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?!" Dorn makes me the same as well.

Starting with Thousand Sons, after which I will have to get either First Heretic or Betrayer, as I simply must read the part of Corrax and Lorgar duelling, as well as the Night of the Wolf incident in detail from Angron's perspective.

If you ask why I read 40K fluff at all if I'm a happy ending kind of guy, well, lets just say I still love the stories of the desperate heroism of the Space Marines.

@ Excessus - please do not mistake my admiration for the Space Wolves as the mark of a rabid fanboy. I did start this thread for the purpose of doing a character study of the Wolf King, both good and bad. I didn't start this thread just to glorify Leman Russ and by extension the Space Wolves. As a matter of fact, where possible I am focusing on the Primarch, not his legion. I have time and again acknowledged the possible flaws of Leman Russ, from the Nikae Edict interpretation to the executioner role interpretation. I ask for more points of discussion, not thinly veiled insults to my intelligence.

@ Player Not Found - I guess I'll have to read Betrayer to get my interpretation of Russ' word. Then again, it does seem like Russ while being patronising, DID have the intention of trying to change Angron for the better and look at life at a different perspective. If we come back to the whole Emperor appointed executioner theory, if Russ was truly trigger happy and self absorb in that role, WHY SPARE ANGRON?

My simple answer is that he loved all his brothers and was doing his best to avoid having to perform another "execution" like he did to Magnus. Its just like Guilliman was also concerned with Angron's bloodthirsty method but he was far too polite to do anything beyond officially protesting, whereas Leman Russ tried to do it with the only method Angron respects: fighting. It still backfired but to me, it again tells me that Russ is not the black and white zealot executioner that everyone think he is, even if the other primarchs think so.

As for spying on other primarchs, well, I guess its something the Russ and Wolves would have to do as part of their executioner duties, to watch for treachery and taint even before Horus was corrupted. Its already implied that SOMEBODY exterminated the two missing legions, and even if the Wolves didn't do it, they most certainly know the outcome of treachery and therefore would have to prepare for it. I'm not saying its a bright redeeming factor of Russ, I'm just acknowledging that you may be right, the wolves may do it out of general suspicion and acting as the Space Marine Legions internal affairs. However, whatever Russ does for espionage probably PALES in comparison to Alpha Legion who do NOT have any special role and still spy and infiltrate other Legions for no other reason other than the fact that THEY CAN.

@ Greyall - As mentioned above, again I don't see Russ as especially narrow minded in his executioner role. As I mentioned previously, right until the moment before bombarding Prospero he was already desperately pleading for Magnus to surrender through the false conduit Kasper. And in the case of Night of the Wolf, although he admitted he was there on his own initiative to reign in Angron, again, he had the World Eater Primarch at his mercy but instead of assuming that the Emperor would want him dead anyway, he chose not to order his Wolves to kill Angron.

This to me does not scream blind zealot executioner to me, rather it shows a brother who is normally given the distasteful job of disciplining his other brothers, trying to avoid the ultimate sanction for the afore mentioned brothers.

Nevertheless, I accept that the other Primarchs perspectives may be somewhat valid. Sanguinus probably WOULD fear that Leman Russ would turn on him the moment the flaw was revealed without giving chance for explanation or redemption. Whether Russ actually WOULD however, we will never know unless they specifically reveal a story of the two primarchs relationship. My take is that Sanguinus probably respects Leman Russ and love him as any other brother, but is also somewhat underestimate the depth of the Wolf King's characte. I know its blasphemy to the Blood Angels for saying this, but even the Angel Primarch wasn't infallible in regards to reading his brothers.

@ Kol Saresk - Thank you for highlighting to everyone again on the importance of perspectives. In my opinion, some of us have fallen into the trap of looking at Russ from only one perspective. Meaning some look at Russ purely from the antagonistic view of the Thousand Sons, I myself look primarily at the perspective of the Wolf King and his legion from Prospero Burns, still others take the views of how the other Primarchs view Leman Russ from the other novels. Again, I hope that by seeing all perspectives, we may finally know the real Wolf King.

To quote Ambasador Kosh from Babylon 5: Understanding is a three edged sword. Your side, my side and the truth in between. And it is the truth of Leman Russ that I seek, from all sides of the galaxy.

In regards to how much the wolves emulate Russ in the whole barbarian portrayal thing, again, matter of perspective. From the Thousand Sons point of view, the Fenrisian lifestyle is probably alien and they have an EXTREMELY HARD TIME interpreting that lifestyle as anything other than barbaric and devoid of culture, when in fact the Fenrisians do have a proud culture and rich oral history, which is transmitted to the Space Wolves. So in Thousand Sons, most of them except for Magnus will probably not see the Wolves deeper than the totems and wolf pelts marking their armour.

From Prospero Burns and Kasper's perspective, we find the drunken viking image dispelled, and see them as grim warriors who happen to accept their role as doing the Crusade's dirty jobs and are somewhat content. Their traditions, their fighitng style, their culture is anything but simple and Ogvai, the Lord of Tra or Third Company does a great job at summarising the real Legion's character as per below:

The 6th Legion has a reputation." said Bear.

"All the Legions Astartes have reputations," replied Hawser.

"Not like ours," said Ogvai "We are known for our ferocity. We are thought to be feral and undisciplined. Even brother Legions consider us to be wild and bestial."

"And you're not ?" asked Hawser.

"If we need to be," said Ogvai. "but if that was our natural state, we'd all be dead by now."

He leaned down towards Hawser like a parent addressing a child.

"It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous" he said.

Excerpt from "Prospero Burns" by Dan Abnett

@ Wade Garrett - Yeah you may be right, in that while Russ may not be the unreasonable bastard all the primarchs THINK he is, the fact is everyone else think he is uncivilised worked against him in the sense few want to openly ally with Russ or even trust Russ and his legion due to all the bad reputation that Russ either purposely cultivates, or simply doesn't care what others think. Sigh, yet another tragedy.

In my opinion though, Russ attempt to teach Angron was probably in the right track, through battle. The only thing is that he underestimated just HOW FAR GONE Angron was in regards to the Butcher's nails was doing to his mind. And THAT is the Emperor's :cuss up. I read somewhere that the Emperor DID know about the nails but chose to leave them in Angron instead of trying to remove them just so that Angron can start fighting in the Crusade. Net result is that over time Angron grew worse and worse, though not quite leaving his senses until his daemonhood in Betrayer. Or am I wrong?

[daveNYC]

 

Leman Russ personality flaws? Not to sound arrogant but no, he doesn't seem to have any psychological issues.

 

Leman Russ, the best primarch or the best primarch?

 

 

 

The problem I see is that you're explaining away (potential) flaws in Leman's personality as simply being unforeseen consequences of how awesome he is.

 

The Night of the Wolf changes from a ham fisted intervention to an expression of brotherly love.

 

His attempt to use Hawser to contact Magnus isn't a waste of effort brought about by Russ' paranoia and certainty blinding him to other possibilities re: Hawser, it's a heartfelt plea from a reluctant executioner (and oh my god how much work that executioner title is doing).

 

Instigating Nikea isn't due to any distrust or superstition on Russ' part, instead it is (again) an expression of his deep concern for his brother's behavior.

 

And at the end of it all, Russ goes against the instructions of the Emperor and nukes Prospero from orbit on the say so of Horus and Valdor, because something something he really loves his brother sooooo much?

 

Hate to say it, but if your reading of the Heresy books is leading you to believe that ANY of the individuals within are not the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, then you're doing it wrong.  The primarchs are simply bigger, their qualities making them leaders of humanity and their flaws leading them into death and damnation.

[Greyall]

I don't want to label anyone, but it's actually interesting how Space Wolves fans seem to have a hard time seeing Russ as less than a good guy. I guess this comes from the Wolves, both in 30K and (especially) in 40K as the one of the last and arguably the strongest example of free thinking and 'doing what's right'.

 

No criticism per se, just something I'm noticing. It's not about Russ losing or not being the greatest warrior. With the Wolf, it seems to be about the moral compass.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

You damn right about that one Greyall. Strange thing is that I wouldnt want too much detail on Leman Russ, it would keep him mythic. But now it seems that the loyalist Primarchs will be fleshed out.

[Kol Saresk]

That's mostly due to a complaint of the Loyalist Primarchs not being fleshed out. For every one person who doesn't want it to happen, there are ten who do. And out of those ten, more than half will either regret asking or be happy with it. So far, the Night Lords have been treated well with the exception of Vulkan Lives, although that is more of a blow towards Curze than the Night Lords.

 

And to be honest, if Dan Abnett can do as good as a job as Prospero Burns and Know No Fear, I would jump at a chance to see his take on the Night Lords.

[Týr]

All past experience shows that a thread like this end very ugly.

 

The entire thread is built upon: "Hey guys. I haven't read so many books so I can't see all the shades to the HH but Leman Russ is awesome. Come gather around and agree with me".

I'm really sorry but I can't see what reason this thread have to live. 

[Greyall]

Well, I'm sure that comment of yours will help keep it cool, Tyr.

 

Heavens forbid we ever attempt to discuss Russ' psyche. It's been cool up until now. It's up to any mod to decide, but I say we don't torch anything until the witchcraft is obvious.

 

Edit: I know snarkyness is not the best posture, but you have to admit, coming to a thread to warn about its imminent derailment while mocking the OP won't do much good unless you're applying for the Adeptus Divinatus. Sorry about the previous tone, hope I've still managed to convey the feeling.

[Týr]

Well, I'm sure that comment of yours will help keep it cool, Tyr.

 

Heavens forbid we ever attempt to discuss Russ' psyche. It's been cool up until now. It's up to any mod to decide, but I say we don't torch anything until the witchcraft is obvious.

 

I would love to discuss the nature about Leman Russ. I just don't think this thread has the right starting point and angle on the issue. I have no intention to turn the thread into a flame war. I just feel it would only take a spark for a thread with a starting point like this one to explode. 

[Wade Garrett]

There's just as much evidence the Wolves killed the Lost Legions as there is that they were absorbed into the Ultramarines: Lot of in universe gossip and rumor, slim to no hard facts.

 

In The Lightning Tower short story Rogal Dorn wishes the Missing were standing with him to defend Terra. I hardly think Mr. Praetorian would have done that if they were black hearted traitors who had to be purged by the hearty men of Fenris.

[depthcharge12]

All past experience shows that a thread like this end very ugly.

 

The entire thread is built upon: "Hey guys. I haven't read so many books so I can't see all the shades to the HH but Leman Russ is awesome. Come gather around and agree with me".

I'm really sorry but I can't see what reason this thread have to live. 

 

Agreed. This pretty much sums up a majority of the Russ discussions.

 

Unfortunately I am one of those people who start getting offended by some who will defend Russ through and through and I start to just outline his faults rather than come up with an honest analysis of his *whole* character.

 

 

I will add that I am beginning to like him more due to the hearsay (not heresy lol) of those who've read Scars thus far. He seems a tragic hero now instead of a flawless "I can do everything you do, but better" attitude that his legion carries around according to my perceptions, which might be skewed.

 

Russ begins regretting what he has done and maybe realized that he has over stepped his bounds and been manipulated by those close to him rather than the free thinking attitude that he so proudly wears

[Greyall]

@Garrett: Well, that part has been made clear by ADB himself, the Wolves were NOT responsible for the extinction of the missing Legions, he has stated. BL writes were also advised to stop pursuing that path.

 

Still, 'executioners' is an in-universe term, if I remember correctly. And the Wolves have been behaving like so (with a bit of 'Warden' here and there).

[A D-B]

This thread makes me love Russ even more. My only comment is that the lack of Freki and Geri so far is ball-achingly tragic.

 

One thing you'll find in the series - at least that I've noticed - is that the more each author does, the more you notice their style on the factions they write about. All of us have different styles, including Alan on the Forge World books. As an example, in Fear to Tread, you've got the notion that Khorne really wanted the Blood Angels the most, and that Horus is actively scared of Sanguinius, and jealous to the point he wants the Angel dead rather than on his side, in case Sanguinius gets chosen as the new favourite of the Ruinous Powers.

 

Similarly, in Prospero Burns, you've got the Wolves repeatedly talked up as the "best" warriors; the most savage (which has always been the World Eaters in 25 years of background); and even in their novel's trailer they're explained as the one Legion badass enough to take down other Legions, despite that not making a huge amount of sense, given that they're smaller than most, and not actually any better at fighting Marines than any other Marine is. They're also breaking the Edict of Nikea, which is something the series really should deal with sooner rather than later. Also, in Prospero Burns, despite the fact that we know full well Leman Russ was deceived into attacking Prospero and killing Magnus the Red, that novel shows Russ doing everything he can to avoid that fate.

 

This has even drifted through the HH team, where I've had to ask, in a meeting, "Wait, wait, wait... The Wolves aren't actually better, are they? Are we really saying they are?" at which point one of the lore overlords chuckled and shook his head in the negative. And along the same lines, it's an interesting idea that Khorne wanted the Blood Angels more than the World Eaters, but it's one of those in-universe assumptions that's believable enough to be real, or could be biased nonsense (like all the best inferences). I dig that stuff, as long as it's not given proof. Because not everything needs to be subverted. A lot of the background is already awesome, which is why I try not to change very much of it - making me fairly conservative and perhaps a little boring compared to a lot of the writing team. Giving it yet more revelation isn't always necessary, but implying alternate truths is rad. There's always more than one side to a story, after all.

 

I've seen mentions online that since the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves are the largest fandoms (by a bajillion miles) that this is pandering to them, to win favour with the hugest fanbases, but I think that's disingenuous. The style of those novels does create a lot of flux and controversy (especially when more balanced novels later contradict them) but they're just a result of different writing styles. You'll get that in every series, and Russ is probably one of the characters that has gone through the most of it. We know what he did in the famous, established background. We know what he did in A Thousand Sons, contradicted in Prospero Burns, and some of the more bombastic claims in the latter were then given a more grounded context in Betrayer.  

 

Russ has, so far, had very little written about him, from the POV of anyone really close to him. Even in Prospero Burns, we saw relatively little of his internal processes, or even those close by getting to interpret his actions. What we have so far is inference and assumption, and a really awesome thread has risen from it. I'd love to see more of him, or just the Wolves in general. 

[Kol Saresk]

Uh-oh.

[Greyall]

Man, I didn't know (haven't read Prospero Burns yet) Russ had tried to avoid having to kill Magnus: I knew he wasn't frothing at the prospect, he was always going to fulfill the Big E's orders. But I was assuming that once the new orders came simply shrugged and said "Well, he had it coming" without a second thought.

[A D-B]

Man, I didn't know (haven't read Prospero Burns yet) Russ had tried to avoid having to kill Magnus: I knew he wasn't frothing at the prospect, he was always going to fulfill the Big E's orders. But I was assuming that once the new orders came simply shrugged and said "Well, he had it coming" without a second thought.

 

It's, like... up in the air. Open to interpretation. Or directly conflicting. Your call. The stance, in terms of what we know happened story-wise and that the writers are working from*, is the classic "Horus talked Russ into it" vibe. I didn't know for sure, so I asked, and that was the answer. I tend not to say much at HH meetings, but I usually have a question or three regarding canon conflict.

 

* -- That's not a spoiler, or anything. It's not even a mystery - it's the established background, and has come up a few times at conventions, so don't shoot the messenger. I'm just repeating what's already public.

[Wade Garrett]

I suppose one could look at the Night of the Wolf as Russ being the only one of Angron's brothers besides Lorgar to care enough to try and save the Red Angel and his Legion.

 

Which would be even cooler if he's not Emperor appointed to poke his nose in everyone's business, he's just a bro like that.

 

Speaking up for Lorgar before Monarchia, apparently caring enough to talk philosophy with him even though it seems Lorgar considered him a feral warlord, and trying to reach out to Angron? Russ isn't the Executioner, he's that one guy that looks out for everybody else in the family, even that one brother that just got out of jail and who's standing on the front yard drunk in his underwear waving a machete.

 

Because the Emperor's too busy at the office to care about his kids. And the cat's in the cradle with the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon...

[Greyall]

No problemo whatsoever, I was just sailing the 'Russ didn't even object' ship on this matter. Although I fervently wish for him to now question why in the seven hells did Valdor's orders match Horus'. It's my loose thread of choice, these days.

[A D-B]

I suppose one could look at the Night of the Wolf as Russ being the only one of Angron's brothers besides Lorgar to care enough to try and save the Red Angel and his Legion.

 

Which would be even cooler if he's not Emperor appointed to poke his nose in everyone's business, he's just a bro like that.

 

Speaking up for Lorgar before Monarchia, apparently caring enough to talk philosophy with him even though it seems Lorgar considered him a feral warlord, and trying to reach out to Angron? Russ isn't the Executioner, he's that one guy that looks out for everybody else in the family, even that one brother that just got out of jail and who's standing on the front yard drunk in his underwear waving a machete.

 

Because the Emperor's too busy at the office to care about his kids. And the cat's in the cradle with the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon...

 

This is 100% personal bias, I admit that upfront, but that's the Russ I see, yeah. I try not to present him purely like that - everything is implication and suggestion, so I don't collide with other interpretations, but that's the Russ I like best. And the source is likely pretty obvious, in that I freaking love all of Howard's perceptions on barbarism versus civilisation, with the merits and flaws of both.

 

There's also that great Stephen King quote, when good ol' local boy Stu Redman says in The Stand, when he's being talked down to by the government pen-pusher: "Country don't mean dumb." I love that. Same thing here; a tribal culture doesn't mean primitive thought. It means grounded, down-to-earth thinking, at every level of intelligence, and a lack of pretension. It means honesty. Not universally, but generally. It's why Loki's such an incredible aberration that forever confounds the other gods. He's so... dishonest. 

 

I read a lot of Howard, and I love the Conan stories. They're far, far from the shallow drek a lot of people take them for (see: Arnie's movies, and the new movie), and what barbarism comes down to above all else is honesty. The Russ I love most speaks his mind, does what he thinks is right, and is honest unto death. His Wolves are the same. 

 

"What do I know of cultured ways; the gilt, the craft, and the lie?

I who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile; they fail when the broadswords sing,

Rush in and die, dogs. I was a man before I was a king."

 

-- The Phoenix on the Sword.

[Excessus]

Yeah, he acts reeeaaaally brotherly in A Thousand Sons when he faces off against Magnus... ;)

[A D-B]

Yeah, he acts reeeaaaally brotherly in A Thousand Sons when he faces off against Magnus...

Magnus was a baddie.

Like you, filthy Alpha Legionnaire. (While I have you, you should totally have your army thread linked in your sig, so I don't have to Google it all the time. Because life is about convenience for strangers on the internet, yo.)

[Cerbero666]

Well, there's something many people tends to forget. The primarchs, as superhuman as they are, are still human, all of them should have some flaws. None flawless primarch could be realistic, even the big E has some problems of his own. And people forget that they are brothers too. Some of them got rivalries, envy, hate, but they are a family. I don't find Russ pleading Magnus to surrender out of his character, he's like the big brother who wants his little brother to settle down and listen, and do the things the right way, even when he must to punch he in the face to get it done. The same thing with the Night of the Wolf, he knows that Angron is a savage, but he doesn't give up upon him, maybe he is one of the few primarchs as has been said, who would care enought to try. 

 

As much is I love Russ, being he and his legion "the executioners", and "the best" is something I really find ridiculous. He's the fixer of the family, he comes, he gives a slap to whoever needs to listen and leave. Why him and not any other? Well, maybe he's rude enough to get the message reach the ears of his other brothers. As a big brother I can tell you. Recently I've been living with my little brother, you know, poor organization, he didn't listen, until one day I turned berserker and shout the things up, later I feel wrong being that rude, but he finally listened and we've been alright since that moment, all fixed. Sometimes it works sometimes not, but IMO Russ always try, being more cunning than savage, but using that savage side of him to be listened. 

[Brother Heinrich]

I suppose one could look at the Night of the Wolf as Russ being the only one of Angron's brothers besides Lorgar to care enough to try and save the Red Angel and his Legion.

 

Which would be even cooler if he's not Emperor appointed to poke his nose in everyone's business, he's just a bro like that.

 

Speaking up for Lorgar before Monarchia, apparently caring enough to talk philosophy with him even though it seems Lorgar considered him a feral warlord, and trying to reach out to Angron? Russ isn't the Executioner, he's that one guy that looks out for everybody else in the family, even that one brother that just got out of jail and who's standing on the front yard drunk in his underwear waving a machete.

 

Because the Emperor's too busy at the office to care about his kids. And the cat's in the cradle with the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon...

 

Man that is an awesome way of seeing it. Makes Russ that much better in my eyes and honestly it makes him seem like the glue that holds the family together, funny enough. He's like the one brother who brings everyone back down to the simple honest level of family.  He knocks them around, whether they be scholar or warrior, and says, "look, we're family, stop acting the fool."