The Complexity of Leman Russ (Spoiler heavy)

[Excessus]

Yeah, he acts reeeaaaally brotherly in A Thousand Sons when he faces off against Magnus...

Magnus was a baddie.

Like you, filthy Alpha Legionnaire. (While I have you, you should totally have your army thread linked in your sig, so I don't have to Google it all the time. Because life is about convenience for strangers on the internet, yo.)

You wish is my command, oh great one!

...and I can stretch as far as "Naive", but a baddie...not in my book...not enough to validate him getting "killed" for at least...

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

"It's why Loki's such an incredible aberration that forever confounds the other gods. He's so... dishonest" . . . ......with that a whole sphere of 40k Space Wolf lore appeared in my mindscape: A novel written in the good traditional plot line of lying, backstabbing & giving your enemies a proper f€/"$£ng over: the Saga of Lukas the Trickster. Remember though Loki helped save Asgard and Odin had a soft spot for him.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Wow, first of all I am honoured by the overwhelming response in such a short time from all of you. I'm even more surprised to have an actual Black Library writer Aaron Dembski Bowden put his two cents in. Thank you indeed. I wish I was more familiar with your work but sadly, I haven't really read that many 40K novels.

 

@ DaveNYC and Tyr- Again I would like to reiterate that I am not aiming at glorifying Leman Russ. I don't mean to prove in this thread that he is the best of the primarchs, or that he is suited for the executioner role, or even that the Space Wolves are the best. I am merely trying to compile a character analysis of the Primarch, with all his flaws and mistakes disclosed. Remember the title of this post: the Complexity of Leman Russ, not how badass Leman Russ is compared to other primarchs.

 

You are correct, my interpretation of the books does seem to portray Leman Russ too much on the loving brother side. Does it mean I am wrong? Does it mean I am right? I never said it would be so. I am merely reading it that way and trying to get see if anybody else agrees or disagrees. If you don't support my interpretation, please say why rationally, preferably with quotes to the appropriate pages of the novels to point out the discrepancies, or just explain in your own words. Don't simply write off my hypothesis as wrong and one sided. I am perfectly willing to accept that the primarch is flawed. The question is, how much is due to his personality, his brother's personalities, the Emperor's role or even the machinations of chaos? 

 

@ Depthcharge - If this thread has opened you to the idea of Russ as a flawed hero instead of the arrogant, flamboyant and self righteous hero popularly portrayed in fluff, then I consider this post a success. That's the reason for starting this post: to see Russ as more than just the propaganda. Again, I have disclosed from the start I haven't read all the books, that's why I want ALL of you to put in as much of Russ in the other books to fill in the gap of my knowledge.

 

 

@ Greyall - Anytime you feel I sound like a rabid Space Wolves fanatic unable to take criticism of the Wolf king, kindly slap me with a big stick. I must admit though, you are right. Deep inside of me, I'm looking for evidence that Leman Russ moral compass is on the right track, if a little misguided here and there. Problem is, when it becomes misguided, crap hits the fan like in Prospero and Night of the Wolf. As mentioned before though, I feel somewhat saddened that Russ did dig himself a few holes not only in terms of reputation, but also the results of his own actions.

 

I feel like a broken record here, but inresponse to your post above, yes, he did plea to Magnus before bombarding Prospero. He just dialed the wrong number using Kasper and as a result, Magnus never received the call for surrender.

 

@ ADB - You made a good point that certain writers have somehow laid claim on writing a certain legion to their style. For better or worse, have to accept James Swallow style for future Blood Angels, Nick Kyme for Salamanders, Chris Wraight for the Space Wolves. 

 

Also while a lot of the assumptions in the HH makes sense in universe, we all have to accept that in most cases, NOTHING IS PROVEN or WRITTEN IN STONE. Even Prospero Burns show little of his inner thoughts, and is all from the perspective of an outsider, an unwitting chaos agent at that. As such, even my observations of Russ and the Wolves are called into question. So everything we know about Russ, good or bad, we still have to take with a large plate of salt.

 

Good point about the writers actually being careful about portraying one legion as stronger than the other. I don't know who said it, but basically ANY fight between any two legions, loyalist or not, will always be 50-50 chance of winning and losing. No legion is stronger than the other, not even the Ultramarines with their numbers.

 

Again you made a good point about the image of barbarism vs actually being barbaric. And even Barbarians have their own culture which may or may not be outdone by civilized ones. China was threatened for 5000 years by the northern horsemen tribes who were regarded as "barbaric." So was the Romans, both West and East versions, and on the whole, either kicked the so called barbarians asses or conversely, got their ass kicked by Goths and Gauls.

 

I'm glad you appear to like this discussion and hope to hear more of your two cents.

[daveNYC]

So we've reached the nuanced opinion that Russ was the only primarch that really cared enough about all his brothers to try and save them from themselves? That he was the glue that held the family together and was the only one strong enough to try and keep everyone on the straight and narrow?

[Excessus]

Hawser, we have lots of training. This is not the first time Russ and his wolves have been on the topic in here...but I must say it's so far the most civilized time... :)

[Stonerhino]

I suppose one could look at the Night of the Wolf as Russ being the only one of Angron's brothers besides Lorgar to care enough to try and save the Red Angel and his Legion.

 

Which would be even cooler if he's not Emperor appointed to poke his nose in everyone's business, he's just a bro like that.

 

Speaking up for Lorgar before Monarchia, apparently caring enough to talk philosophy with him even though it seems Lorgar considered him a feral warlord, and trying to reach out to Angron? Russ isn't the Executioner, he's that one guy that looks out for everybody else in the family, even that one brother that just got out of jail and who's standing on the front yard drunk in his underwear waving a machete.

 

Because the Emperor's too busy at the office to care about his kids. And the cat's in the cradle with the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon...

That's actually the way I see it.  Russ' actions are best summed up as a person with a "Big brother" complex. 

 

He risks his legion in what we find out in Scars is often volunteering for the toughest fighting.  He stands up for not killing another brother with reguards Lorgar.  He steps in to help Angron.  The list goes on. 

 

The Wolves continue this ideal in 40k.  With the protecting of the common (innocent) man. 

 

However when something becomes a threat against the greater good.  Then the Wolves throw themselves at the threat without mercy.  Even if that threat is a former ally.  And it is that combination of conficting emotional extremes is what makes the Wolve, the Wolves and posibably the true Executioners.   

 

*******

 

The Wolves are so amazing in the old fluff because they did everything they did with the low numbers. 

[Kol Saresk]

So we've reached the nuanced opinion that Russ was the only primarch that really cared enough about all his brothers to try and save them from themselves? That he was the glue that held the family together and was the only one strong enough to try and keep everyone on the straight and narrow?

Nope. That he is one of those Primarchs. Lorgar, ironically, is another.

[Excessus]

Come to think of it, wasn't Russ coming to blows with Magnus already on Shrike? Enough so that Lorgar was needed to step in between them?

[Wade Garrett]

So we've reached the nuanced opinion that Russ was the only primarch that really cared enough about all his brothers to try and save them from themselves? That he was the glue that held the family together and was the only one strong enough to try and keep everyone on the straight and narrow?

Or that he was an interfering busybody who just had to poke his nose into everybody else's business (Rune Priest spying on Ahriman, NoW) and he solved minor problems by turning them into major disasters.

 

See also: Lorgar "I'll kill billions and turn Angron into a daemon! That'll fix things!" Aurelian

 

Perception is very important in these sorts of things.

[Cerbero666]

So we've reached the nuanced opinion that Russ was the only primarch that really cared enough about all his brothers to try and save them from themselves? That he was the glue that held the family together and was the only one strong enough to try and keep everyone on the straight and narrow?

 

Nope. Is more like he feels the responsabilty to do it, or he believe himself to be the only one who could do it, maybe is some kind of arrogance on his part. All his savagery and ferocity is more a pose than an actual trait of his persona. He use it to be listened/respected, to "teach" lessons to others. Sometimes you must to shout it louder to get others listen to you. 

[Grim Dog Studios]

That's actually the way I see it.  Russ' actions are best summed up as a person with a "Big brother" complex. 

 

I suppose one could look at the Night of the Wolf as Russ being the only one of Angron's brothers besides Lorgar to care enough to try and save the Red Angel and his Legion.

 

Which would be even cooler if he's not Emperor appointed to poke his nose in everyone's business, he's just a bro like that.

 

Speaking up for Lorgar before Monarchia, apparently caring enough to talk philosophy with him even though it seems Lorgar considered him a feral warlord, and trying to reach out to Angron? Russ isn't the Executioner, he's that one guy that looks out for everybody else in the family, even that one brother that just got out of jail and who's standing on the front yard drunk in his underwear waving a machete.

 

Because the Emperor's too busy at the office to care about his kids. And the cat's in the cradle with the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon...

 

He risks his legion in what we find out in Scars is often volunteering for the toughest fighting.  He stands up for not killing another brother with reguards Lorgar.  He steps in to help Angron.  The list goes on. 

 

The Wolves continue this ideal in 40k.  With the protecting of the common (innocent) man. 

 

However when something becomes a threat against the greater good.  Then the Wolves throw themselves at the threat without mercy.  Even if that threat is a former ally.  And it is that combination of conficting emotional extremes is what makes the Wolve, the Wolves and posibably the true Executioners.   

 

*******

 

The Wolves are so amazing in the old fluff because they did everything they did with the low numbers. 

 

I have to agree on the "big brother" complex he has. I believe Russ sees himself and his brother primarchs as a form of wolf pack, therefore their brotherhood would mean a lot to him, and so he feels that he has to do what is best for his brothers in a kind of way (trying to teach Angron a lesson/warning Magnus about his use of sorcery).

I also feel that he did not choose the role of executioner himself, more that he was thrust into the role by the Emp, and he does his damn hardest to try and make his papa proud, whether he likes it or not. Whilst he sees how having a barbaric and savage reputation among the legions can instill fear into his enemies, I think he also realizes that it ruins his chance of a "real brotherhood" with the other primarchs.

I believe he doesn't like the role he has been thrust into, but him and the Wolves feel that it is their duty and that they must go through with the hardships of possibly being disliked by many of the other legions and their respective primarchs because nobody else is willing to go through with it (maybe Angron, but I don't think he really cares about much apart from slashing things). 

[Greyall]

A Big brother complex isn't all hugs and super fun Christmas eves, like Garret pointed out. Russ' grounded values also mean that his views are more or less set in stone, and he'll see himself as one of the few fitting for solving it - whatever it is.It's kind of tragic, though, that throughout the series Russ has gotten little but flakk. Seen as meddlesome, ruthless, savage, too straightforward in battle, executioner, arrogant, self-righteous, narrow-minded...these views ar from both in-universe and from us, and the sad truth is that there's basis for most of them.The Lion might be viewed poorly today and Dorn might've seen his luck go down the drain as soon as the Heresy started, but Russ isn't behind either of them.

[Jareddm]

The idea of a big brother attitude for Russ is interesting because I always saw Horus in more of that role. Though it's perfectly reasonable to see both primarchs developing a 'big brother'-esque personality trait considering they were the two first primarchs to be found. The differences in how they take to such a role would be quite telling. As has been mentioned, Russ tends to put himself in other people's business as he sees all of his brother's business as 'wolf pack' business. On the other hand, Horus seems to have taken a more passive approach in terms of managing his 'younger' siblings. He uses his charisma and a lead by example approach that seemed to have earned him the respect of at least the majority of his brothers.

 

Not saying one way is better than the other. Just trying to make some broad parallels. Horus's approach seems better at maintaining an overall sense of order and momentum in the crusade, whereas Russ is looking to get at the root of problems that might cause problems among the primarchs.

[Spinsanity]

In Betrayer Aurelian specifically mentions that the only reason he wants to save Angron is because there are only two primarchs (according to his prescient visions) that can stand up to Sanguinius : Angron and Horus. Knowing Signus Prime would fail, he wanted Angron to remain alive so he could take on Sanguinius and prevent Horus having to face the angel (who knows, maybe Horus would have won if he hadn't bean worn down by Sanguinius first?)...

[Conn Eremon]

You're right, Horus should fit best in the role of Big Brother. And he does. He is the Warmaster after all, their leader when dad left to get a pack of cigarettes four years ago. But remember, according to the new Primarch Discover Order list provided on the Great Expedition forums by a Black Library staff member, Leman Russ was Numero Dos. Which we can easily infer must have had an incredibly major impact. Horus being first led to his preferential treatment almost single-handedly. Russ being second must have had a similar effect, if diluted. So having Russ take the Big Brother role is rather fitting, considering the only one he literally isn't a big brother to is Horus and, maybe, the later discovered, but much more successful in their prior life, Primarchs like Guilliman or Dorn. This might also be the reason why the War Hounds are seen with having a similar purpose or role. The Space Wolves got their Primarch first, and the Emperor probably saw similarities between the two and just went with the one who already had a Primarch in later times when such a Legion was needed. If, of course, that is the case. We don't really know.

 

And you know what? I have a feeling Russ was the babysitter Primarch in the earliest days. Back when it was just him and Horus, who do you choose? Obviously Emps wanted to check out his newfound sons as they arrived, but afterwards he probably sent them off on their merry way to you know, conquer stuff. At that point, who do you have them tag along with, as many Primarchs appeared to have done before being let loose on their own? Horus, who is too busy staying at the tip of the spear with Big Daddy Himself? Or Russ, the other guy? Take away the fact of who Russ is and how he acts, it does kind of make sense that it'd be the other guy. Once you think that sounds the more likely, add in the fact that this other guy is Russ. The Barbarian King, showing the pups the ropes. Teaching them, learning from them, sending them off to do their own thing. Not as an actual tutor or master figure, probably, just a tag along until the new guy is comfortable with his new lot in life.

 

After a while, when there are more and more Primarchs being discovered, Russ probably does that a lot less. But the mentality might still be there. So when Angron appears, fourth from last, that mentality makes him think that it is his job to show him that Angron's old ways do not belong in this Imperium. He needs to learn what the Imperium demands of him, perhaps even as Russ himself was once taught. After all, what use does the Imperium need of a backwards, drunken Viking :cuss face? Maybe his sons don't make the transition as well as the big dawg, but Russ has made himself to be far more than just a Barbarian King. Angron needs to be more than just a fallen Gladiator Hero. Get back up, shrug off your failures and the shackles with which you have been enslaved, and get with the program. Of course, Angron, being Angron, that didn't really fly all that easily and Russ, being Russ, flew into a rage over the insults and jabs. Et voila, the Night of the Wolf.

 

But really, I think there is only one reason why Russ and his Legion have been decreed the Throne's Executioners. So that he (the nameless individual who first devised this idea) could blare The Baha Men's most famous of singles, "Who Let the Dogs Out?" every single time. Every. Single. Time.

 

Note: Feel free to poke fun at my random use of words in languages I am far from fluent in.

[Wulfkry]

I really like the way this thread is going as some interesting new lines of though have opened up concerning Russ.  The big brother motif I completely agree with.  One of the reasons I like Russ so much is because a lot of his personality is my own.  My brother who just got married this past weekend is the Horus figure shining charismatic leading from the front the one everyone adores.  Me, I'm the brutish looking one that cleans :cuss up, polices everyone, makes sure :cuss gets done, makes sure everyone is taken care of, teaching lessons if need be (learning them to of course) and if there are problems they are solved by whatever means necessary. 

 

I've always considered my self his 2IC and am completely happy to be it, but he also comes to me for my council in a great many things.  I am the executioner like Russ. 

 

That leads me to the main thought concerning the word Executioner.  I think most of us read it as EXECUTIONER as in hes the guy that takes heads off, where as we progress further along into his character we see it more as executioner as in the guy who executes the will of his commanders Emps/Horus.  He obeys his orders period.  He executes his tasks whatever it is no matter how dirty or distasteful it is.  Why?  Not so much because no one else is capable of doing it, but hes done it for so long its just what he does and there is no need to dirty the others with these jobs as his mental/spiritual/ emotional constitution and that of his legion has already been geared towards it.  Fenris breeds them harshly.

 

The term executioner in the perspective above fits perfectly with Russ as he will do whatever it takes to get the bloody job done regardless of what any one thinks.

 

OP thinks for the great topic we need more of these!!

[Gree]

Honestly I never liked the ''Executioner'' fluff anyway. Too demeaning to other Chapters in my view. Russ could be written well without it.

[Greyall]

I have to disagree on Horus being a big brother. He is a brother, for sure, but is far too pragmatic in his relationship with the other Primarchs. He manipulates them. Not in a bad way, definitely, he simply uses each of the others to the best of his abilities. When Horus does talk to them, he looks each eye-to-eye, both sharing their issues. Russ, I don't have his brotherly-love chart in my memory, but he's indeed a more 'strict' brother, seeing the other Primarchs as part of the group of the Emperor's sons. No lack of love, I assume, but I don't see the same connections Horus builds. And he's always ready to correct whatever deviancy he sees.


The Executioner job, however dislikeable it may be, fits Russ like a glove. As does him being manipulated by Horus and Valdor on account of loving his job too much. The result, through fault of every part involved (which has been the beauty of the Heresy series), is complete disaster, with the Wolf King doing what he can to keep himself and his Legion from being wiped like they're nothing.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I hope that the tales about Vilkja Fenrika gets told by all the good writers in BL. I think that of all writers, Dan Abnett set the grim dark mood pf the Heresy Wolves. I sure do hope they bring out Scars in a full length audio book.

[Cerbero666]

You're right, Horus should fit best in the role of Big Brother. And he does. He is the Warmaster after all, their leader when dad left to get a pack of cigarettes four years ago. But remember, according to the new Primarch Discover Order list provided on the Great Expedition forums by a Black Library staff member, Leman Russ was Numero Dos. Which we can easily infer must have had an incredibly major impact. Horus being first led to his preferential treatment almost single-handedly. Russ being second must have had a similar effect, if diluted. So having Russ take the Big Brother role is rather fitting, considering the only one he literally isn't a big brother to is Horus and, maybe, the later discovered, but much more successful in their prior life, Primarchs like Guilliman or Dorn. This might also be the reason why the War Hounds are seen with having a similar purpose or role. The Space Wolves got their Primarch first, and the Emperor probably saw similarities between the two and just went with the one who already had a Primarch in later times when such a Legion was needed. If, of course, that is the case. We don't really know.

And you know what? I have a feeling Russ was the babysitter Primarch in the earliest days. Back when it was just him and Horus, who do you choose? Obviously Emps wanted to check out his newfound sons as they arrived, but afterwards he probably sent them off on their merry way to you know, conquer stuff. At that point, who do you have them tag along with, as many Primarchs appeared to have done before being let loose on their own? Horus, who is too busy staying at the tip of the spear with Big Daddy Himself? Or Russ, the other guy? Take away the fact of who Russ is and how he acts, it does kind of make sense that it'd be the other guy. Once you think that sounds the more likely, add in the fact that this other guy is Russ. The Barbarian King, showing the pups the ropes. Teaching them, learning from them, sending them off to do their own thing. Not as an actual tutor or master figure, probably, just a tag along until the new guy is comfortable with his new lot in life.

After a while, when there are more and more Primarchs being discovered, Russ probably does that a lot less. But the mentality might still be there. So when Angron appears, fourth from last, that mentality makes him think that it is his job to show him that Angron's old ways do not belong in this Imperium. He needs to learn what the Imperium demands of him, perhaps even as Russ himself was once taught. After all, what use does the Imperium need of a backwards, drunken Viking face? Maybe his sons don't make the transition as well as the big dawg, but Russ has made himself to be far more than just a Barbarian King. Angron needs to be more than just a fallen Gladiator Hero. Get back up, shrug off your failures and the shackles with which you have been enslaved, and get with the program. Of course, Angron, being Angron, that didn't really fly all that easily and Russ, being Russ, flew into a rage over the insults and jabs. Et voila, the Night of the Wolf.

But really, I think there is only one reason why Russ and his Legion have been decreed the Throne's Executioners. So that he (the nameless individual who first devised this idea) could blare The Baha Men's most famous of singles, "Who Let the Dogs Out?" every single time. Every. Single. Time.

Note: Feel free to poke fun at my random use of words in languages I am far from fluent in.

Just to add something more on that. Given that one of the two lost legions primarchs is the third to be found and if we take the fact that Russ was the "babysitter" of the two already discovered, he probably took care of the new found primarch. Given the fact that is one of the two lost primarchs, if he left the bad way, it could explain why Russ was so aggresive when teaching his other brothers. Think about it, a new boy comes to the brotherhood, you are the first one to speak to him, to teach him in some way, and then that boy under your "protection" goes bad (doesn't matter how), and you feel responsible for his fall. The next time you have to teach something to one of your brothers you will be harder than before (Angron, Magnus).

What do you think?

[Wade Garrett]

In Betrayer Aurelian specifically mentions that the only reason he wants to save Angron is because there are only two primarchs (according to his prescient visions) that can stand up to Sanguinius : Angron and Horus.

And in literally the next paragraph he upbraids Horus, telling him that prophecy should never be fully trusted, that he will save Angron because that's his brother, and that once Horus would have tried to do the same.

[Kol Saresk]

Horus is the warmaster. He is currently trying to win the war. That's why he put effort into trying to turn Sanguinius, despite Lorgar's warnings that it would never happen. Do you really think people are going to just accept Lorgar's explanation that he saved Angron because Angron was his brother? No. Of course not. Look at the reactions of some of the fans. They don't believe it.

 

Besides, I believe it was two birds with one stone. Horus needed someone who could at least slow Sanguinius down. A Daemonic Angron can do that. Lorgar wanted to save his brother. Making him Daemonic Angron could do that. BAM! We have motive and justification.

 

And as we know, Sanguinius gets slowed down from fighting in the Siege. Horus does not. Sanguinius boards his flagship. And then Horus kills him, setting the stage for the Emperor to fight Horus and for both of them to die, thus ensuring the Ten Thousand Years that would birth the Eternal War.

[NemFX]

There are many kinds of intelligence. I would argue that Leman's problem was that he was likely considered more emotional than his brothers, not that he was any less intelligent.

 

 

.. Also I admit, I came here thinking you were talking about the tank, not the person.

[Wade Garrett]

Horus is the warmaster. He is currently trying to win the war. That's why he put effort into trying to turn Sanguinius, despite Lorgar's warnings that it would never happen. Do you really think people are going to just accept Lorgar's explanation that he saved Angron because Angron was his brother?

 

It is convenient that the thing Lorgar wants to do (turn Angron demonic, thus birthing the Ruinstorm, thus gaining favor with one of the Four, etc.) also happens to be what Lorgar thinks is the moral thing to do (saving my brother). Funny how that works out sometimes (see also Curze, Konrad "There was no other way to pacify Nostromo except by flaying people alive and eating their children, activities I happen to find soothing.")

 

Something else occurs to me about Russ being the second Primarch found. We talk about his big brother complex, but if he was literally the Second Son, then he himself was always in the shadow of one Horus Lupercal. I'm not saying "LOL Wolf iz jealous" as a dig against Russ, just saying that he met his father, hung out with him, and then discovered that his father has another son, one who is closer to him than Russ can ever be...how can that not have just a bit of an effect on how he conducts himself as a Primarch?

 

It ties into something I've said before, about how one of Russ's strength's that he may have been a square peg, but he made a square hole for himself, in contrast to Primarchs like Lorgar and Perturabo who broke themselves trying to fit into roles they had no desire to play. I wonder if he didn't make himself "The Big Brother Enforcer Guy" as a way to stand out from Horus.

 

After all, Horus can't run around keeping tabs on the rest of the guys, he's at the forefront of the Crusade with Dad. So there's no possible way he can overshadow Russ in this particular role.

[mactire]

Leman Russ and Conan son of Conn, who says a topic cant have everything cheers Kasper and AD-B .

ps, Conan would have made a cool wolf lord. "FOR THE ALLFATHER" "CROM"