The Complexity of Leman Russ (Spoiler heavy)

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Horus is the warmaster. He is currently trying to win the war. That's why he put effort into trying to turn Sanguinius, despite Lorgar's warnings that it would never happen. Do you really think people are going to just accept Lorgar's explanation that he saved Angron because Angron was his brother?

It is convenient that the thing Lorgar wants to do (turn Angron demonic, thus birthing the Ruinstorm, thus gaining favor with one of the Four, etc.) also happens to be what Lorgar thinks is the moral thing to do (saving my brother). Funny how that works out sometimes (see also Curze, Konrad "There was no other way to pacify Nostromo except by flaying people alive and eating their children, activities I happen to find soothing.")

 

Something else occurs to me about Russ being the second Primarch found. We talk about his big brother complex, but if he was literally the Second Son, then he himself was always in the shadow of one Horus Lupercal. I'm not saying "LOL Wolf iz jealous" as a dig against Russ, just saying that he met his father, hung out with him, and then discovered that his father has another son, one who is closer to him than Russ can ever be...how can that not have just a bit of an effect on how he conducts himself as a Primarch?

 

It ties into something I've said before, about how one of Russ's strength's that he may have been a square peg, but he made a square hole for himself, in contrast to Primarchs like Lorgar and Perturabo who broke themselves trying to fit into roles they had no desire to play. I wonder if he didn't make himself "The Big Brother Enforcer Guy" as a way to stand out from Horus.

 

After all, Horus can't run around keeping tabs on the rest of the guys, he's at the forefront of the Crusade with Dad. So there's no possible way he can overshadow Russ in this particular role.

There is however, a big difference between Curze and Lorgar. Curze observed that violent people only react to more violence. As a result, he reacted in violence. His taste for violence and sadism developed as a result of getting used to his actions.

[Conn Eremon]

Leman Russ and Conan son of Conn, who says a topic cant have everything cheers Kasper and AD-B .

ps, Conan would have made a cool wolf lord. "FOR THE ALLFATHER" "CROM"

Wait, wait, what? There's a Conn in Conan? He is Conan's dad? Bloody hell, now I really do have to read those books! Been putting it off since forever.

To make what I said make sense, my username here represents the first and so far only time I have ever not used "Conn" as my username. You can see I really branched out, taking his son's name. Part of me regrets it these days, kind of want to change it. It'd be like Kol finding out about an iconic book/series featuring Cole of Tsaresch. Which actually kind of sounds like an awesome name.

[Wade Garrett]

There is however, a big difference between Curze and Lorgar. Curze observed that violent people only react to more violence. As a result, he reacted in violence. His taste for violence and sadism developed as a result of getting used to his actions.

 

Or was Curze already violent and sadistic, and he took control of his world that way because when you really like to hit things with a hammer, every problem looks like it could be solved by hitting something with a hammer? (Mangled metaphor AHOY!) After all, his first thoughts upon crawling out of his pod where "Huh. There are people like me in that city. Gonna need a shiv."

 

Sevatar's words in Prince of Crows would support the later reading, I think. Again, this is going into interpretation and perception, which will of course vary from person to person.

[Conn Eremon]

Nah, Konrad Curze is more like Barney Stinson.

 

"Hi gang, this looks like a great hangout. Mind if I be the leader?"

 

"Over our dead bodies, strange child that fell from the sky."

 

"Challenge accepted."

 

And then he became leader of the world. True story.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

There is however, a big difference between Curze and Lorgar. Curze observed that violent people only react to more violence. As a result, he reacted in violence. His taste for violence and sadism developed as a result of getting used to his actions.

 

Or was Curze already violent and sadistic, and he took control of his world that way because when you really like to hit things with a hammer, every problem looks like it could be solved by hitting something with a hammer? (Mangled metaphor AHOY!) After all, his first thoughts upon crawling out of his pod where "Huh. There are people like me in that city. Gonna need a shiv."

 

Sevatar's words in Prince of Crows would support the later reading, I think. Again, this is going into interpretation and perception, which will of course vary from person to person.

 

 

Remember the nature of grimdark. A planet where innocence is lost everyday is worse than a city where people are "just born bad".

[Kasper_Hawser]

Wow, I'm sensing a new consensus forming about the Wolf King here, that of a Big Brother Complex. Now we seem to be debating just how far Russ goes in that mindset, or whether he is worthy of doing it, and the ultimate results of his meddling. I think that is one of the biggest twists of this heresy whereas from previous fluff, we get the impression that he didn't gave a damn about the other legions and was concerned with his own legion's success, much like the Lion himself.

That's the beauty of the Heresy so far: we know much of how the events went, now we get to see some of the inner workings of the primarchs and frankly, I think we all got blown away at some point or another. WIthout going off topic too much, it appears that not only Russ, but even Lorgar has gone against everything we previously knew and somehow came on as caring brothers. Only difference is that one cares enough to kill/ fight his brother, the other cares enough to make him ascend to daemonhood.

@ Excessus - Just curious, what is the incident about Russ fighting Magnus on Shrike? Is that in Thousand Sons? Dang if I didn't have to work, I would be reading that book now.

@ Wade Garrett - Yeah, interfering busybody is something we can all agree the Wolf King portrays himself. The question I now ask is (a) was Russ justified in being the busybody? (b) if so, in what capacity was he being a busybody? As a concerned brother, overzealous Emperor's dog, reluctant Emperor's dog, misguided sense of morality, big brother disciplinarian as highlighted by Wulux?

Even if we do agree he has a big brother complex, that's not the end of the story. As Wulux and Greyall mentioned, a big brother isn't just someone to play with. Sometimes he is responsible for reining in the other brothers when daddy isn't around. By right Horus should have that job but I guess he was too much the Emperor's golden boy to form close relationships with ALL his brothers, only the ones he happened to like such as Sanguinus and Fulgrim. Again, I would like to point out that in every duty he has had to perform so far, all of it seems to be with great reluctance but grim resolve. Whether it is sacking Prospero, Night of the Wolf, and more recently, fighting the Alpha Legion while the Scars get the chance to go Terra faster.

Sadly all this little/big things add up and ultimately, I believe we still have a Primarch as tragically flawed as everyone else, whether it is Fulgrim, Mortarion or dare I say it, Magnus.

However, I will still dare to say in most cases, his heart was in the right place, and it was barely enough to keep him from becoming a traitor or leading his legion to damnation.

@ Cormac - Was Russ really the second Primarch to be found? That would give creddence to the big brother complex both Russ and Horus SHOULD share. Sadly this is probably just a codex information, we're unlikely to get any detailed writing or books regarding the order of primarch discovery influencing their current state of minds.

LOL, who let the dog's out! If I was really a rabid Space Wolves fan, I would maul you for calling Russ a dog, but I happen to have a sense of humour.

@ Wulfkry - Thank you, I do my best to bring intellectually stimulating debates which hopefully end up in a merry bar brawl with everyone going home drunk, bruised, naked and happy, preferably with a wench or two at his/her side.

Your interpretation of executioner role also bears looking into, after we exhaust discussing about the big brother complex. For the moment, I say I agree with you on most of your points.

@ Cerbero666 - I think we should avoid bringing the unknown primarchs into this. I do not disagree with you, but I think that is another whole can of worms that doesn't need to be open right now. Anyway, ADB has already stated somewhere (not in this thread) that the Wolves did NOT exterminate the unknown legions.

@ Kol Sarek - Uh, I think you mixed up the roles in Fear to Tread a bit. Horus WANTED Sanguinus to die in the Signus Trap, whereas Erebus who wanted to turn Sanguinus into a daemon of khorne. Remember the epilogue of the book where Horus carved Erebus face skin out? That was because Erebus was furious that they only got the Red Angel in the end and not Sanguinus, implying that Horus was afraid of having a rival. Horus kept insisting through the novel that Sanguinus would never turn no matter the cost, while the word bearers, Kabandha and that daemon of Slaanesh I forgot the name were all for converting Sanguinus.

Good point on Horus also having motivation to have Angron become a daemon prince. Angron is cured of his eventual death by Nails, and BHAM! We now have a flying rage monster capable of dealing with Sanguinus who is one of the best Close Combat fighters in the Imperium.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I keep remembering it from the end of Betrayer, in which Horus is talking to Lorgar about trying to convert Sanguinius and Lorgar says that it'll never happen.

[Scribe]

Pleasantly surprised by this thread, and its given me a fresh perspective on Russ.

 

I think a 'big brother' approach is justified, along with the opinionated and nosy perspective, thats the joy of 40K done well. A quiet confidence from his sons "Of course we are the best, what a stupid question off worlder" and a that lack of pretense can be appealing...and in the next breath the ignorance and 'our powers come from Fenris' talk puts me over the edge....

 

A good thread to sign off on though, as all the Primarchs are complex when written well. (I want a Night Lords novel, kthx)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Glad that this has opened most of your minds that there is more to the Wolf King than an arrogant self righteous prick. I will freely admit that in addition to Leman Russ, the rest of the primarchs, traitors or otherwise, are also complex in various degrees and none are as straightforward as the fluff has portrayed, not even Angron. This discussion has also discussed the other primarchs personalities and has enlightened be of their personalities as well.

 

I just wish the damn Scars series didn't cost like 20 pounds per chapter. That would SERIOUSLY have golden points for Russ inner psyche. The cost is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying those who buy it are dumb, but its a shame that GW is willing to milk its fans that way. Sigh, will have to wait sometime next year before they release the entire book. Now that I would gladly buy in hardback.

 

Another food for thought: Apparently Robouite Guilliman, who is also an astute judge of character, happens to think highly enough of Russ to wishing he had Russ on his side to fight Horus. Strange as I have never detected any sense of connection between the two, either in the old fluff or the new HH series. So the Ultrasmurf (I say this in jest, not to insult) is not so fixed on his own doctrines that he can appreciate other legion doctrines, even one as unorthodox as the Wolves of Fenris. So maybe Russ didn't quite damage his own reputation that much to be thought off as an unreliable ally and comrade.

 

On the other hand, Horus mentioned in Fear to Tread that Russ would be the sort who would turn on Sanguinus should the flaw be revealed. Then again, Horus was wrong about many things even if he is supposedly a master of psychology and diplomacy.

 

As mentioned by ADB, nothing is set in stone, almost everything is hearsay from one primarch or other characters with little cold hard evidence on what Russ would do if X happened.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Pleasantly surprised by this thread, and its given me a fresh perspective on Russ.

 

I think a 'big brother' approach is justified, along with the opinionated and nosy perspective, thats the joy of 40K done well. A quiet confidence from his sons "Of course we are the best, what a stupid question off worlder" and a that lack of pretense can be appealing...and in the next breath the ignorance and 'our powers come from Fenris' talk puts me over the edge....

 

A good thread to sign off on though, as all the Primarchs are complex when written well. (I want a Night Lords novel, kthx)

 

You summarised the consensus for the past 4 threads quite nicely Scribe. Still I don't want this to be the end of the discussion just yet, especially when Scars is being released piecemiel and there's lot of Russ in it.

 

As much as I hate him, I must admit that Kurze has me intrigued. I just wish we could see more  of his "Dark Heroic" side instead of constantly seeing his psychotic side. I always think of him as a Batman gone mad in the path of justice. Oh well, another thread for another time.

[GhostMalone]

Horus is the warmaster. He is currently trying to win the war. That's why he put effort into trying to turn Sanguinius, despite Lorgar's warnings that it would never happen. Do you really think people are going to just accept Lorgar's explanation that he saved Angron because Angron was his brother? No. Of course not. Look at the reactions of some of the fans. They don't believe it.

 

Besides, I believe it was two birds with one stone. Horus needed someone who could at least slow Sanguinius down. A Daemonic Angron can do that. Lorgar wanted to save his brother. Making him Daemonic Angron could do that. BAM! We have motive and justification.

 

And as we know, Sanguinius gets slowed down from fighting in the Siege. Horus does not. Sanguinius boards his flagship. And then Horus kills him, setting the stage for the Emperor to fight Horus and for both of them to die, thus ensuring the Ten Thousand Years that would birth the Eternal War.

Kol it's the eternal tea party of happiness remember no more grim dark

[JeffJedi]

While "there is more to the Wolf King than an arrogant self righteous prick" that does not change the fact that more often than not he behaves that way.

 

I'd be more sympathetic to Russ if he only had problems with one Primarch but there's both the Lion and Magnus. Russ gets in your face like a good Viking/Werewolf/Barbarian/Klingon that he is. If the Primarchs are facets of the Emperor then Russ is the Emperor's utter self assuredness, unwillingness to backdown or admit fault.

[Conn Eremon]

Except he tries to back down in Prospero Burns and does admit fault in Scars, so . . .

[Kasper_Hawser]

While "there is more to the Wolf King than an arrogant self righteous prick" that does not change the fact that more often than not he behaves that way.

I'd be more sympathetic to Russ if he only had problems with one Primarch but there's both the Lion and Magnus. Russ gets in your face like a good Viking/Werewolf/Barbarian/Klingon that he is. If the Primarchs are facets of the Emperor then Russ is the Emperor's utter self assuredness, unwillingness to backdown or admit fault.

He may behave that way, but he probably isn't. Not that I want to quote Shrek, but the Wolf King has as many layers as that onion eating ogre that goes beyond the Space Viking image.

As for Russ problems with other primarchs, well, that's what we are trying to understand, why he does things the way he does. Most people from before think he is an arrogant self righteous self appointed big brother disciplinarian. But as of now, the opinion seems to be shifting that while he does have a big brother complex, it does seem to come from a genuine sense of, dare I say it, love for his brothers, which for him is his pack as another poster mentioned. Mind you, it is an extremely tough love, love you enough to beat sense into you and in the case of Magnus, even killing you as you have gone off the deep end. Ultimately it hurt Russ, his legion and his own reputation though, and gave a false sense of superiority to the more rabid Space Wolves fans.

For me, the enemity of the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves isn't something to be proud off. Its a mark of shame, because it should never have happened as Russ and Magnus never really hated each other personally.

In Battle of the Fang by Chris Wright, when Magnus penetrated the Fang and symbolically broke the statue of Russ across his knee as a reflection of Prospero, he had a monologue as well, stating that he understood that Russ never wanted to destroy him and the K sons but fate beyond their control had manipulated them, and that by doing that he was simply returning the favour. This corresponds to the plea by Russ in Prospero Burns for Magnus to surrender as well, thus dispelling the myth that Russ hated Magnus simply for being a powerful psyker. That is my favourite twist of the Wolf King in the HH series thus far.

Now I just hope Russ can get his hands on one of the twin Alpha Legion primarchs and give him a good beating. Unlikely due to the damn sneaky Alpha Legionaires but hey, I can dream can't I?

[Chickenleg]

Lets not forget that Leman Russ is probably the biggest hypocrite in the entire 40k universe,hating psykers while using them himself?Hating the Thousand sons for their mutations while his sons are becoming wulfen?

 

In 1 of the books there is a part where Russ demands that Magnus removes his feathered cloak but when Magnus replies no,you remove your wolf pelt he gets angry.Yeah...

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I'm sure that comment of yours will help keep it cool, Tyr.

 

Heavens forbid we ever attempt to discuss Russ' psyche. It's been cool up until now. It's up to any mod to decide, but I say we don't torch anything until the witchcraft is obvious.

 

I would love to discuss the nature about Leman Russ. I just don't think this thread has the right starting point and angle on the issue. I have no intention to turn the thread into a flame war. I just feel it would only take a spark for a thread with a starting point like this one to explode. 

I am really happy that the fears of Tyr did not pan out. Its been a good informative discussion. As a child of the 70`s I am still amazed the one can communicate with like minded people about subjects that other people would have you declared insane for . . . regardless of nationality, race or religion.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Lets not forget that Leman Russ is probably the biggest hypocrite in the entire 40k universe,hating psykers while using them himself?Hating the Thousand sons for their mutations while his sons are becoming wulfen?

 

In 1 of the books there is a part where Russ demands that Magnus removes his feathered cloak but when Magnus replies no,you remove your wolf pelt he gets angry.Yeah...

Sigh, Chickenleg, please try to read the past few pages. The whole issue about psykers treatment is not so clear in the Wolves case and is yet to be cleared up in the HH books, so we are taling it with a lot of salt. Also as we have discussed intensely, Russ never really hated the Thousand Sons, but had extremely valid reasons to be concerned hence the Council of Nikae. And I think we can all agreed that Magnus himself broke the camel's back of the Emperor's patience by sending sorcery to Terra and nearly wrecking the palace with daemons. Thus Russ fears becomes true and he is ordered to deal with Magnus, which later became twisted as a kill order by Horus. Even then, he still tried to get Magnus to surrender before the burning of Prospero.

 

I admit that this thread is getting a little long, but to everyone, try to follow the discussion to expand your knowledge on things you may or may not have read thus far. If you only focus on what you know, say only the Thousand Sons book, then of course the only thing you will see is persecution and hypocrisy from the Wolves and Russ. prospero Burns, the Night of the Wolf incident and even the latest Scars chapter novels lend a whole new light to the Wolf King not previously seen.

 

@ Ozeryk, I have no idea what you mean by nbsp.

[Chickenleg]

I have all the books and i take my information from all.The hipocrisy is there for all to see.In the Night of the wolf he actually lost the duel but then his space wolves surrounded Angon and thus he got his lesson.The incident would stop there but no,Russ goes around and claims that he won!Maybe its me and maybe its my bias towards Magnus but this is how i see it and I shared my point of view.

 

Oh about about ''Russ fears become true'',russ thinks Magnus is a necromancer obviously he has no idea what he is talking about.

[Stonerhino]

Lets not forget that Leman Russ is probably the biggest hypocrite in the entire 40k universe,hating psykers while using them himself?Hating the Thousand sons for their mutations while his sons are becoming wulfen?

 

In 1 of the books there is a part where Russ demands that Magnus removes his feathered cloak but when Magnus replies no,you remove your wolf pelt he gets angry.Yeah...

Russ hated sorcery and from his perspective could very well have believed that he was saving Magnus from hiself.  That is untill Magnus shows off his sorcery by invading Terra.  And Horus changing Russ' orders.

 

And that book is A Thousand Sons and it is later described as being completely for show.  I don't feel like digging out the book for a quote.  But you should reread that part.  You missed what was going on. 

[Augustus]

I can buy the Big Brother theory. Russ has been shown to get into fights with 3 primarchs--Magnus, the Lion, and Angron. Russ was seconds. Perhaps it was this and not the executioner thing that is what Russ believed to be his "wyrd" Horus being first would never accepted the reconciliatory position. He groomed himself to be a peacemaker/warlord. Custodians protect the Emperor's life perhaps Russ(being found second) groomed himself to protect the Emperor's soul. I don't think he liked Magnus. Perhaps Valdor convinced him that Magnus' existence threatened to bring down the family? Being raised a wolf Russ maybe believed that a pack(family) is only strongest when pack members are strong (functional) and like Wade mentioned, the alpha is too busy to be bothered and the beta is too busy trying to emulate the alpha so he took it upon himself to keep the synergy/peace/from killing each other.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

"Ozeryk, I have no idea what you mean by nbsp". . . . . neither do I. It happended whilst trying to quote. But thats not really the important part of what I am trying to say.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I have all the books and i take my information from all.The hipocrisy is there for all to see.In the Night of the wolf he actually lost the duel but then his space wolves surrounded Angon and thus he got his lesson.The incident would stop there but no,Russ goes around and claims that he won!Maybe its me and maybe its my bias towards Magnus but this is how i see it and I shared my point of view.

 

Oh about about ''Russ fears become true'',russ thinks Magnus is a necromancer obviously he has no idea what he is talking about.

 

While your view has merit, you seem to adopting only a certain point of view which seem to stem wholly from the Thousand Sons side. You seem to be ignoring everything in Prospero Burns, and in Night of the Wolf, choose to impose your already fixed view of Russ and completely miss the lesson he tried to impart to Angron.

 

I only ask that you open your mind a little more and try to shift perspectives especially from the Wolves side. I have already committed myself to reading Thousand Sons, as of now I have finished he chapter of the Compliance on Aghoru and am seeing it from Ahriman's perspective now. Can you try to look from the Wolves side and honestly tell me that the wolves are bloodthirsty idiots who only love drinking and fighting, with a not unfounded fear of maleficarum?

 

@ Augustus - My bad, I may have said that Russ loved Magnus as a brother, but I didn't mean the lovey dovey close type. More like the Japanese concept of Nakama, we are brothers even if we don't share the same opinions or mother or powers. Actually, from a Fenrisian mentality, he still considers Magnus as part of the pack.

 

But you also add more points on Russ viewing the Emperor and the primarchs as a pack, and he while not being the Alpha (Emperor), is most likely the beta. Therefore he takes his own initiiative to making sure the pack is strong by solving the internal problems in his own harsh way. The debate now is whether he IS the appointed beta pack leader/executioner.

 

@ Ozeryk - Apologies, at the time I saw your post only had nbsp written. Later I reloaded the page and saw the rest of your comment. Really glad you are enjoying this discussion. I don't suppose you have your own points to add in regards to Leman Russ in the Heresy so far?

 

By the way, has there been ANY mention of the famous brawl between Russ and the Lion? In the few stories I've read so far, nobody seems to have brought it up, yet that particular fight has become the stuff of legends the 41st millenium. I actually expected it to be mentioned in Prospero Burns, especially to a skald like Kasper but none of the Wolves seemed to bother mentioning it. I guess that fight already happened sometime during the Great Crusade and by the time of the heresy, the Wolves have probably just moved on to newer sagas.

 

Strange but understandable as the Horus Heresy is about the NOW rather than the past glories of the Great Crusade.

[Greyall]

Sigh, Chickenleg, please try to read the past few pages. The whole issue about psykers treatment is not so clear in the Wolves case and is yet to be cleared up in the HH books, so we are taling it with a lot of salt. Also as we have discussed intensely, Russ never really hated the Thousand Sons, but had extremely valid reasons to be concerned hence the Council of Nikae. And I think we can all agreed that Magnus himself broke the camel's back of the Emperor's patience by sending sorcery to Terra and nearly wrecking the palace with daemons. Thus Russ fears becomes true and he is ordered to deal with Magnus, which later became twisted as a kill order by Horus. Even then, he still tried to get Magnus to surrender before the burning of Prospero.

 

I admit that this thread is getting a little long, but to everyone, try to follow the discussion to expand your knowledge on things you may or may not have read thus far. If you only focus on what you know, say only the Thousand Sons book, then of course the only thing you will see is persecution and hypocrisy from the Wolves and Russ. prospero Burns, the Night of the Wolf incident and even the latest Scars chapter novels lend a whole new light to the Wolf King not previously seen.

 

This is the beauty of the issue. While Kasper is right and there are explanations for every one of Russ' stances, the fact is the novels have portrayed him - through act more than through thought, I think - as a man too certain of his righteousness to be consensual. Either you agree with him or he'll call you at 5AM asking if you changed your mind. Russ imposes his views and rules (the Emperor's rules) like, indeed, a big brother does to a younger one. Likewise, and tying into what Augustus said, he views the pack as a chain whose links must not go rotten, hence why he defends Lorgar - and why he eventually decides to sever Magnus' link.

 

Russ' approach on that last one, though, is too strict, too hostile. He ends up helping throw the Thousand Sons into Tzeentch's embrace. We know the rest and now we see that the depths into which he's fallen are starting to resemble Magnus'. Of course we know he won't dabble in daemonic pacts, but it's nice to see how no Primarch goes unscathed.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

"He ends up helping throw the Thousand Sons into Tzeentch's embrace." Unfortunatly they were in Tzeench`s embrace the second Magnus asked for the stabilization of his 1000 Sons. A sad story.

[Legatus]

Eh, I'm going to weigh in contrary to the "big brother complex" suggestion. I think that is a bit of a reach. To how many of his 17 brothers did he stick up for or act in any way as a role model? Did he act as a big brother to Jonson? I think the answers to those questions are "not many" and "no", so that would perhaps not really support the notion. That he would feel the responsibility to help out someone in need was more the result of his honourable mindset rather than his self perceived role as part of a family.