The Complexity of Leman Russ (Spoiler heavy)

[Conn Eremon]

Speculation is that he perhaps already knew the conclusions of each Primarchs' discovery.

 

Logic says that either the author effed up, like pretty much everything else in that book, or the list hadn't been devised yet and it was decided that it should contradict rather than confirm Deliverance Lost, for whatever reason.

 

Either way, this is what is acceptable to go by. This is a resource the Black Library authors are meant to use when writing their books.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the author was Gav Thorpe :P

 

So this is official from Black Library? Cool beans.

 

Although, if he knew all the outcomes, it still begs the question as to how the Heresy happened at all.

[Conn Eremon]

According to a online forum member claiming to be a BL editor, Laurie Golding, aye. Official. But hey, we take AD-B for granted, I trust this Laurie.

[Kol Saresk]

Let's just hope it is true.

[High MarshalGR]

The shallow image of the Space Wolves is dispelled the first time they appear in A Thousand Sons. Savages don't behave that way, following orders so strictly and with arrogance rather than boasting. And yet now that I re-think it, I don't see their 'savage' aspects - the howling, the crude manners or things like demon-faced leather masks - as a show. As Russ says himself, it's hard to remain so controlled. Which means the Wolves really tend towards their brutish ways yet are strong-willed enough to behave in a strictly professional way - sometimes even trying to hard, which tends to happen to people countering their true nature. Still very much admirable, though.

 

Russ is becoming one of my favourite Primarchs, mainly because he does try to do what's right, even when seeing himself - and being seen by the others - as an axe. And when you're an axe in the middle of a war, there's not much you can do that doesn't involve someone losing an arm. All you can hope for is to chop the right people's arm.

 

Right now, Russ is about to enter a critical phase and has said that he wants to discard all control and see where the anger takes him. So do I.

 

 

Mine too actually. Russ is actually portrayed as an pretty deep character in many novels, and as a whole: His SW, well known for being anti-authoritian, are really one of the most loyal legions and really disciplined and ordered. Russ follows the ways of an Oathkeeper up to now, a man of honor first and foremost. His power lies in the ability to balance pretty well the aspects of both straight forward and guerilla tactics warfare. He is -for me- not an axe, but a samurai katana. He is a boaster for an image, which is what the Emperor probably realised after the eating and drinking contest: A man who hides many things behind his seemingly swallow appearance, behind the axe which everyone sees. He sees and judges himself before everyone else, and the inspiration he can offer as a leader is really powerful. Another thing I am beginning to realize is a deep sense of justice and mercy, which is reflected on the importance "the weak" have for SW. The "mortals" aren't for him nothing, like some other legions see them, but what SM are meant to help, which makes them a shield as well. Really complex individual with many gifts and more than meets the eye in my opinion.

 

I would like to see Russ coming for the "Wolftime" along with the rumored fruit of the Tree of Life for the Emperor's resurrection...

[Carach]

 

If anything, I'm beginning to learn that even a story of a traitor primarch makes for an interesting read.

 

you are missing some of the best books in the series by not reading the stories of some of the traitor primarchs.

 

It's been repeated to death but; The First Heretic is a hell of a book. the opening books of the series following Horus is tragic. Garro fleeing on the eisenstein is tragic. but far and away the best of them all is ADB's first heretic. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

So... we've decided that Russ wanted to be the 'big brother' to the other primarchs, and his only flaw, is that he loved them too much?  Right off the bat, there's so much emotional baggage that goes along with the phrase big brother (if Russ is a big brother, then all the others are little brothers, with all the attendant patronizing that goes along with it), that were someone to try and apply it to any other primarch, the cries of Mary-Sue would be loud enough to wake the dead.

 

Second, Russ as the big brother?  Seriously?  That's assuming that any of the other primarchs, demigods whose formative experiences nearly all involve conquering their home planets, even remotely want or need someone to watch over them and teach them the ropes.  Hey Lion, good job uniting the forces of your planet and cleansing it of chaos tainted monsters, want me to teach you how to ride a bike?  And even if the primarchs somehow needed someone to be a big brother to them, why in gods name would Russ be even remotely qualified?  Does he have some great wealth of relevant life experiences that he gained while growing up in a pack of wolves and later being the barbarian king of an ice planet?

 

Then we've got people mentioning that Russ and the Wolves are humane with a strong moral compass.  That this is reflected in the fact that in 40k, they're considered one of the 'good' chapters.  Never mind that the Thousand Sons and the Wolves first come to blows over the fact that the Wolves wanted to burn a library, or the short story where they freed a colony from the predations of the Dark Eldar only to immediately turn on the inhabitants when it turned out they weren't that interested in trading one master for another.

 

And finally, I've read a number of comments praising the ambiguity of the fluff allowing for people to have their own interpretation of the fluff and leave Russ as a mythic figure.

 

I'm going to skip the devil's advocate step and go straight to being a devil, allow me to be as uncharitable as possible in rebuttal.

 

Russ behaves the way he does because he is certain.  He has such an absolute believe in his own correctness that it blinds him to other possibilities and leads him to take actions that are ultimately destructive.

Examples: 

Shrike: The Wolves want to burn the library and the Son's want to save it.  The Wolves actually start a physical altercation in order to get to the library in order to burn it.  Eventually there's flesh change action and Russ publicly declares that Magnus is a sorcerer, Lorgar has to step in to prevent Russ from going after Magnus.

Nikea: Russ gathers support from other primarchs, sends a Rune Priest to spy on the Sons, and eventually gets enough support to bring about Nikea.  This leads to the banning of psykers from the Legions.  Certain other events happen at this point in Prospero Burns, but they're stupid.

Yeah, a daemon manifests in the same zip code as the Emperor and he doesn't do anything and nobody thinks to mention it.

 

Prospero: Russ is convinced that Hawser is a spy for the Sons, so he attempts to use him to communicate with Magnus.  Russ is incorrect in his assumption, but assumes that since Magnus didn't respond via Hawser, than there's no reason to use something like a radio and ends up nuking Prospero from orbit.  So to speak.

Night of the Wolf: Russ decides that the World Eaters' violent ways require an intervention.  He meets with Angron and implies that the Emperor sent him to get Angron back to Terra (for therapy or something).  Angron tells him to get bent, and that the Emperor is simply another master, a master that Angron is only able to bring himself to serve because serving allows him to indulge in the ultra-violence, which is the only thing that eases the pain of the Nails.  Russ has problems grasping the idea that a childhood of slavery, a lifetime of mental torture by the Nails, and a single moment when he was snatched away from the only family he had ever had, thus leaving them to be slaughtered by the armies of the slavers, might have made Angron a tad bitter towards his father.  His solution is to keep pushing things until violence erupts, Angron beats him like a rented mule, and then he expects that Angron will notice all the bolters pointed in his direction and realize that 'fighting, U R doing it wrong'.  Russ thinks that a gladiator with a rageputer in his head is going to beat him to a pulp, and then suddenly believe he didn't actually win the fight because a bunch of mooks are pointing guns at him.  That's not even getting into whether or not bolters would even scratch him (he did after all manage to shoulder press a Warhound Titan and other primarchs have shown themselves to be literally bulletproof).

 

What we have isn't a primarch who is showing brotherly love.  We are seeing a primarch who thinks that he knows the way of things and acts accordingly.  Hawser can contact Magnus, the flesh change means Magnus is evil, Angron will come back to Terra because I said the Emperor said so.  These aren't well thought out positions.  They work on the surface, but start to fall apart the second you ask "but what if..."  And Russ never seems to ask "but what if...".

 

Now to all the people praising the fact that this is open to interpretation, let me cast doubt on your motivations.  Curze, Magnus, Lorgar, Horus, Fulgrim.  We know these primarchs well now.  We know their greatness and their failures.  Alpha Legion, we know the event that led to them joining Horus, if not the actual motivations and schemes that they are up to.  We've learned that The Lion has the empathy of a rock and that Perturabo really wanted to be an architect and is very pissed off about that.

Is knowing this level of detail better or worse than not knowing?  I'm not going to touch that.  What it does mean is that we know.  There's no sugarcoating these guys.  Horus doubted his father and himself, Magnus felt he could master that which by it's nature cannot be mastered, Fulgrim strove for perfection regardless of the cost, Lorgar needed something to worship, Curze was an utter cynic about humanity.  Flawed individuals all.

 

Being ambiguous and leaving things open for interpretation allows you to believe that Russ is this shining example of awesomeness without having to nut up and admit that what you're constructing isn't a good character.  If someone says, "but look, this Russ guy is perfect there's nothing real about him" you can say, "But look, ambiguous!  Open to interpretation!  He totally has flaws, just nobody can actually articulate what they are, but we have invented 500 new words to describe just how awesome his love for his brothers is."

 

The second someone fleshes out Russ that all falls apart.  He'll either become a flawed godling, the same as any of the other primarchs, or he'll be revealed as a Mary Sue wish fulfillment character.  Right now, you're able to take Russ, this Schrodinger's primarch, and ascribe concrete positive traits that are balanced by abstract and ambiguous flaws.  I'm going to posit that many of you are so enthusiastic about Russ being ambiguous because you don't want him to be anything less than perfect, yet neither do you want to be forced to face that what you've been constructing in your mind is nothing more than a vacuous Mary Sue.

 

Man, I love waking up early in the morning and discovering that while I was sleeping, the thread expanded to its sixth page. :) You guys are awesome!

 

Don't think I am picking on you Dave, its just that your post was so extensive I can't help but focus on it to reply. Really appreciate your concern about the current consensus and your observations on how each of us are looking at Russ after the past 5 pages or so discussion.

 

I think we can all agree that he is a flawed godling, like the rest of us. Which is why many of us (me included), are desperate to holding on to the lifeline that despite all his screw ups, compared to his brothers he at least has a moral compass that is on the right track. As mentioned by Greyall, he still remains a primarch that has yet to turn into a daemon, cull his homeworld, made a pact with an evil deity or betray his brother. Yet for all his good (?) intentions, he still  was a pawn in the plans of chaos, just like all of his brothers.

 

One could say but for a twist of fate, he could have been Angron had he ended up on Nunencia, just as Corax could be Kurze if he had ended up on Nostramo (Corax himself thought this in Deliverance Lost). But I believe this is another can of worms of the "Nature vs Nurture" argument. Who is to say? Anyway, better stop this train of thought first.

 

Nevertheless, I would like to point out that even the opinion of the big brother complex is pretty divided among all of us. For me I would advocate that yes, it comes from a unique form of brotherly love to his fellow primarchs. For others, some would attribute it to him being the second primarch found and therefore having an informal role of instructing his brothers in the Imperium ways even if his own homeworld is just as barbaric. Yet others bring more of the executioner perspective.

 

Hell, maybe I was wrong to call it a consensus, as I'm implying that we ALL agree on the big brother angle. Apologies.

 

However, when you said the primarchs are demi-gods who shouldn't need any brothers to teach them the ways of life and the Imperium, well, here we have to agree to disagree. The primarchs are not demi-gods. They are supremely engineered beings who are still based on the human psyche, and therefore, still subject to the similar wants, desires and flaws as those they consider mortal. Few primarchs acknowledge this though, I think Vulkan is the only one who would even remotely consider himself related to normal humans, most of the other primarchs seem to think of themselves as practically a separate species that is destined to look after the lesser ones known as humanity. So in my opinion, the primarchs behaving as a dysfunctional family isn't so out of this world. Meaning yes, Russ and Horus would no doubt welcome the later primarchs as "older brothers" and then do their best to bring them up to speed with the Great Crusade. So when they find that some of the brothers just can't seem to mature beyond their upbringings (sigh, yes, I'm looking at you Angron, and Kurze too), that's where I believe Russ tries to rectify AS BEST HE KNOWS but ultimate fails.

 

Without blaming the gods of chaos too much for manipulating everything, yes, Russ was bull headed in his approach, believing in absolute surety that he was right, and that was enough to justify Prospero and Night of the Wolf in his eyes. And yeah, it backfired on him big time. He isn't alone in this aspect though. Angron was also the same and couldn't accept any perspective that wasn't his own. Same with Magnus.

 

The only difference I can between the three, is that Russ ultimately happened to be right on the side of the Emperor, whereas the other two paid for their skewed look at life with slavery to a chaos god (Angron could be happy though, whereas Magnus somewhat resents his daemonhood). This however, is only in hindsight based on what we know ultimately happened.

 

Sigh....

[Augustus]

The only quote I could find from the IA was:

 

"The Emperor of Mankind had watched the way that this world worked from his divine auguries. The citizens were clean and efficient, working towards a common good with determination and silence. The night streets were completely empty as the entire planet slept. Evidently they lived in ignorance of the glory of the Imperium, but their King, undoubtedly possessing great authority and able to command unquestioning respect, had moulded the society into a model of productivity. Matchless efficiency. Natural conformity. Total obedience."

 

-Model productivity- not necessarily a "model world"

 

Edit- plus it says he thought that from space.

[High MarshalGR]

I have to say my viewpoint here about Horus. For me Horus isn't a man of honor unlike Russ. He broke an oath he gave while being consent (willingly)  while it was in his power to remain true to his oath (Magnus aided him and warned him about what was happening, one less excuse) so I want to avoid compering men (Greek sense of the word) with scumbags. If you want to talk about Luna Wolves, Gavriel Loken is my man. About the same goes about Angron, who was a man of honor only for himself but not for me at the least. The loyal men of WE are still a different story, as are some other of the traitor Primarchs who were influenced by Chaos in a different way and under different circumstances. What should have been done with Angron in my opinion (I don't think as a father so it's not really accurate)? Let him die on Nyceria since he wants to. I wouldn't mind one bit personally. War hounds were awesome anyway, and Angron violated their traditions and their ideals.

[daveNYC]

Stuff.

 

No worries.  I just felt I had to try and break up the wolf love fest that was going on.  It was either that or call the ASPCA.

 

I've got no problem with the idea that Russ' moral compass tends to point in the right direction.  To be fair, all the primarchs had moral compasses that more or less pointed towards good, at least initially.  Even Curze didn't start off torturing and killing people just for giggles.  The problem starts when people assume that just because his heart was in the right place, everything he did was good.  That's what leads us to explanations about how The Night of the Wolf actually wasn't poorly thought out, or that his attitude towards Magnus was motivated entirely by brotherly concern instead of deep seated superstition.

 

Russ being 'good', for whatever that means in the context of Warhammer, isn't a problem.  What's a problem is assuming a purity of motive on his part or holding the theory that Russ cannot fail, he can only be failed.  

 

So was The Night of the Wolf an attempt to help Angron?  Yes.

Did Russ do it because he got it into his head that Angron was 'doing it wrong'?  Yes.

Was it an utter failure?  Hell yes.

Did it fail because Russ had no understanding of what Angron was actually going through or his motivations for being so violent, and was unable to adapt once Angron laid himself out there?  Yes.

Did it fail because at a fundamental level, Angron is nigh-unreachable?  Also, yes.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Stuff.

 

No worries.  I just felt I had to try and break up the wolf love fest that was going on.  It was either that or call the ASPCA.

 

I've got no problem with the idea that Russ' moral compass tends to point in the right direction.  To be fair, all the primarchs had moral compasses that more or less pointed towards good, at least initially.  Even Curze didn't start off torturing and killing people just for giggles.  The problem starts when people assume that just because his heart was in the right place, everything he did was good.  That's what leads us to explanations about how The Night of the Wolf actually wasn't poorly thought out, or that his attitude towards Magnus was motivated entirely by brotherly concern instead of deep seated superstition.

 

Russ being 'good', for whatever that means in the context of Warhammer, isn't a problem.  What's a problem is assuming a purity of motive on his part or holding the theory that Russ cannot fail, he can only be failed.  

 

So was The Night of the Wolf an attempt to help Angron?  Yes.

Did Russ do it because he got it into his head that Angron was 'doing it wrong'?  Yes.

Was it an utter failure?  Hell yes.

Did it fail because Russ had no understanding of what Angron was actually going through or his motivations for being so violent, and was unable to adapt once Angron laid himself out there?  Yes.

Did it fail because at a fundamental level, Angron is nigh-unreachable?  Also, yes.

 

Actually on point number 4 (Did it fail because of Russ had no understanding.....), I would like to contest that Russ probably did have some idea of what Angron was going through. Both of them were brought up on a more or less death defying childhood of conflict, both of them DO have a strict martial code that is focused on honour through combat. The part where they part ways was that Angron was never given a chance to know the better side of humanity, whereas Russ (who was raised by wolves if you can believe the stories), was eventually adopted and learnt the ways of Fenris in addition to his wolf upbringing. Angron however, was forever programmed into gladiator mode not only by the Emperor's screw up in handling Angron, but also physically by the Butcher's Nails.

 

Ultimately, Russ overestimated his ability to "help" Angron but I would daresay that compared to other primarchs, I think Russ had a better chance than any other primarch to reaching out Angron. Note, by better chance, I mean 1 % chance compared to other primarchs who would have 0.5% chance. :P

 

As for the rest of the other 4 points above, you are spot on.

 

Thus far I think most of us agree that even if Russ heart and motivations was in the right place, the net results was almost always a disaster. Which again adds to the complexity of the character and a double dose of tragedy. And I never wanted to say that Russ was "good" in our modern context, or at basis, a Christian context. By the Imperium's standard though, he was most likely "good" in the sense of loyalty to the Emperor and getting the job done "according to his own sense of honour". 

 

Please don't call the ASCPA. We wolves are afraid of nothing except veterinarians. :P

[Kol Saresk]

But Russ has no idea what it is like to be a slave. Russ has no idea to literally never sleep because these implants that are supposed to be causing to be just more aggressive, are constantly stabbing his brain with pain, which brings out the hyper-aggression of a wounded animal. And its constant, never-ending, unless he is so consume with killing that the implants slowly ease up because he has gone where they are alway pushing him. Until he slides back just an inch, and then the Nails start biting once again.

 

Russ also never had to watch all of his "friends and families" die from orbit because he had been deemed worthy of salvation and they had not. Russ was actually able to get all of his people implanted. Many died, but more than a few survived. Angron's family was never given that chance.

 

When Russ returns home, he is a hero. Angron is remembered as a coward who was defeated by the Golden Emperor.

 

These are the things that drive Angron. His motivations. Unless you understand these things, you cannot understand Angron.

 

You can learn, you can sympathize, but you cannot understand unless you either go through it, or something like it.

 

Russ didn't understand. But he did sympathize, whatever his motivations for doing so might have been.

 

@Augustus: A world without crime that worked for the good of all(as seen by the Emperor's psychic scrying) and was also the model of perfect efficiency and production is not an ideal world by Imperial standards?

[daveNYC]

But Russ has no idea what it is like to be a slave. Russ has no idea to literally never sleep because these implants that are supposed to be causing to be just more aggressive, are constantly stabbing his brain with pain, which brings out the hyper-aggression of a wounded animal. And its constant, never-ending, unless he is so consume with killing that the implants slowly ease up because he has gone where they are alway pushing him. Until he slides back just an inch, and then the Nails start biting once again.

 

Russ also never had to watch all of his "friends and families" die from orbit because he had been deemed worthy of salvation and they had not. Russ was actually able to get all of his people implanted. Many died, but more than a few survived. Angron's family was never given that chance.

 

When Russ returns home, he is a hero. Angron is remembered as a coward who was defeated by the Golden Emperor.

 

These are the things that drive Angron. His motivations. Unless you understand these things, you cannot understand Angron.

 

You can learn, you can sympathize, but you cannot understand unless you either go through it, or something like it.

 

Russ didn't understand. But he did sympathize, whatever his motivations for doing so might have been.

 

@Augustus: A world without crime that worked for the good of all(as seen by the Emperor's psychic scrying) and was also the model of perfect efficiency and production is not an ideal world by Imperial standards?

 

Yeah, this.  Angron had been enslaved, mutilated, forced to fight and kill, and tortured for nearly his entire life.  Any one of those would be enough to place his experiences far beyond what the other primarchs ever experienced.  As a package, and combined the fact that unlike all his brothers he was not the head honcho on his planet, he watched his family die, and then was told to fight, kill, and conquer for a new master, means that Angron's existence was something that none of the others in his new family could ever understand.

 

"Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave."

[Scribe]

Russ understanding Angron? Not in the least. To me thats one of the main points of Night of the Wolf. It displays very plainly that Russ (and indeed Angron's own Legion) have next to no understanding of Angron, or his motivations.

 

I think Russ had one of the lowest chances of getting through to Angron actually. Corax would have been better even, perhaps even the best when you think about it. ( I dont know if they had any fluff interaction actually, but both coming from Slave worlds?)

 

Russ is far to sure of himself either for better or worse, to get through to Angron, who is sure of himself and also doesnt care at all, what anyone else thinks.

 

Angron is a dead man walking by his own choice and words. Thats not something that is in the character of Russ to understand. Maybe after the Night of the Wolf, but not going in.

[daveNYC]

Not to mention that per Betrayer, Angron's implant is actually killing him.

And as a primarch he can probably sense it happening.

[Conn Eremon]

Not even Corax has a chance of understanding Angron. True, both grew up on the wrong side of a society that made heavy use of enslavement, but Corax was never actually a slave. He grew up among the slaves, felt their pain and hardships and took it upon himself to free them and topple their overlords, but he was not himself a slave. The slaves who had found him, hid him. The gaolers were unaware of his presence until he made it known in the act of rebellion.

[Wade Garrett]

If anything I think Angron would loathe Corax MORE than Russ.

 

The Raven succeeded in freeing the slaves of his planet, then let the slave takers live in his new reformed society. (As seen in Deliverance Lost, where the Alpha Legion stirs them up in a rebellion.) So you've already got salt in old wounds PLUS "soft hearted sentimental weakness". This is not a good foundation for a friendship.

 

Second, Corax WILLINGLY joined up with the Emperor whom Angron views as the greatest Enslaver in the galaxy. (see numerous remarks by him to that effect in Betrayer). I think Angron would see that as kicking out one group of slave takers and then bowing and scraping to an even WORSE group. Hypocrisy! (Again, talking from Angron's POV).

 

Mortarion might be the one Primarch who could empathize with the Red Angel, since he also had a childhood among monsters and failed to bring his homeworld completely under control. And if we go by the old fluff he was good friends with Curze, the only Primarch who even approaches Angron in the "having a chat to murdering your face in 0.00000009 seconds" department.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

Curze speaking with Angorn . . . . . must be charming conversation.

[Conn Eremon]

Angron: Nonsensicalangrygibberish!

Curze: Ssssinissssster chuckle

Mortarion: STEAM WHISTLE

 

Russ: Wolf's hooooowwwwl

 

Curze: Shut up, Russ!

Mortarion: Nobody likes you!

Angron: God!

 

Russ: Daddy can I hit one of them?

 

UHM, ER . . . HOW ABOUT MAGNUS?

 

Russ: Okay!

[WarSpirit]

No way Russ can understand Angron. I got migraines, strong ones and i'm sure i can't understand what he goes trough. When i have one i want to smash my skull open with a hammer or a drill. For an astartes having a Butcher's nails must be migraine times 20. For Angron must be times 100 or more, heck i would kill anybody on sight or pull my face off. So no Angron does not, can't understand what Angron goes trough. Constant pain with lack of sleep equals one truly angry man who snaps at the least provocation. So with his upbringing Russ was truly dout of his mind to even think he could get to the man. The guy was abused, to the extreme with the nails and the slavery and gladiatorial pit fights. When Salvation came he got another knife in the back. 

 

In Betrayer we truly sees this. He can't understand, and nor can I, why the Emperor didn't helped him. He helped all the other primarchs. Wouldn't you feel betrayed and excluded from your brotherhood ? Hey Angron my man, big E helped us all out except you, we rock ! The Emperor could have easily put his armies between the gladiators and the planet army. Negociate a truce, compliance and in exchange all the gladiators are gone. He get angron and a bunch of loonies but he gets a happy Angron, who may not have turn this way and mutilate his legion in the process.

[Wade Garrett]

I have to say my viewpoint here about Horus. For me Horus isn't a man of honor unlike Russ.

 

Russ's honor is just like the whole "ignorant savage" song and dance he puts on...it's a mask to put you off your guard before the knife goes in your kidneys. Sure, he'll play the part of an bluff honorable Viking guy, but when push comes to shove Russ and the Wolves are very much a "Do what you gotta do" bunch. Unless you  see having Legionaries spy on allies by pretending to be their friends (Wyrdmake), killing a world by crashing a space station into it (The Quietude), or murdering the people of Shrike as they tried to surrender. Russ will be honorable right up to the second that "honor" gets in the way of him doing what he thinks the Emperor wants and then LOOK OUT!

 

As for Angron ruining the War Hounds...I don't know.

 

Given that they already practiced decimatio on allied Army cohorts and allowed sanguis extremis duels even before they found Angron, I'd say the Primarch may have pushed them but they were already standing on the edge looking thoughtfully into the abyss.

[Kol Saresk]

Wade Garrett, on 11 Sept 2013 - 19:33, said:

 

 

High MarshalGR, on 11 Sept 2013 - 06:56, said:

I have to say my viewpoint here about Horus. For me Horus isn't a man of honor unlike Russ.

Russ's honor is just like the whole "ignorant savage" song and dance he puts on...it's a mask to put you off your guard before the knife goes in your kidneys. Sure, he'll play the part of an bluff honorable Viking guy, but when push comes to shove Russ and the Wolves are very much a "Do what you gotta do" bunch. Unless you see having Legionaries spy on allies by pretending to be their friends (Wyrdmake), killing a world by crashing a space station into it (The Quietude), or murdering the people of Shrike as they tried to surrender. Russ will be honorable right up to the second that "honor" gets in the way of him doing what he thinks the Emperor wants and then LOOK OUT!

 

As for Angron ruining the War Hounds...I don't know.

 

Given that they already practiced decimatio on allied Army cohorts and allowed sanguis extremis duels even before they found Angron, I'd say the Primarch may have pushed them but they were already standing on the edge looking thoughtfully into the abyss.

 

Honor is a tricky. No two cultures define it the same way. Feudal Japan required suicide in case of failure in specific duties. In Medieval Europe, killing in the name of God was considered honorable. Why would honor be so simply defined in the Warhammer universe when it is not simply defined in the real world?

 

I'm not saying Horus is or isn't honorable. I'm just saying that his character can at least give off the illusion(if not the actuality) of fitting at least some form of honor.

[depthcharge12]

A lecture on Honor from a Night Lord.....

 

how quaint :P

[GhostMalone]

I know what honour is it's me not putting my chainaxe into your back. But putting into the side of your skull

[Kol Saresk]

Hey, haven't you ever heard of "Honor Among Thieves"? Just because the code isn't moral doesn't mean it doesn't exist.