The Complexity of Leman Russ (Spoiler heavy)

[depthcharge12]

Jeez jaspcat

 

you change your avatar like everyother day like someone with mp :P

 

its driving me batty! sorry kol...

[GhostMalone]

Ehh I got some new sonic comics made me want to embrace my inner shadow :)

 

Edit: the Multi personalities are usually kept in check by the ADHD and OCD but today I'm to bored to really keep the voices in check

[Kasper_Hawser]

OK OK, I get it. Russ totally cannot understand Angron. No need to take a chainaxe to my skull just because I mentioned there's a 1% chance Russ MIGHT understand Angron. And he screwed up royally for it. I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it by reading Betrayer.

 

 

Sigh, yet another point against Russ. The poor Wolf King, maybe that's why his sons later in the 40K became somewhat more humanitarian to unconciously make up for his mistakes in the Heresy era. Unfortunately, their good intentions still backfired on them most of the time, as what happened in the First Armageddon War. Grimnar is almost something like a pale reflection of Russ, except with slightly better public relations if you can believe the fluff that Grimnar is more popular than most chapter masters. Sadly thanks to the Months of Shame following the First Armageddon War, even more lives were lost thanks to Grimnar's pig headedness. Angron was probably laughing in the warp seeing the damage after the war far exceeded what he did before he was banished by the Grey Knights.

 

In a way, probably Angron's payback for the Night of the Wolf incident.

 

Might even be part of why Russ eventually left his chapter in the middle of dinner without so much as a goodbye.

 

Adds a whole new meaning to the phrase "sins of the father always pass down to the sons".

[Kasper_Hawser]

A lecture on Honor from a Night Lord.....

how quaint

As mentioned repeatedly, no two cultures measure honour the same way. The Night Lords as I understand were mainly drawn from the criminal elements of Nostramo. Even criminals have their own perverse set of rules or "honour" to live by. Chinese Triads for example, have a long history of being rebellious elements of the previous dynasty who justified themselves as still being "loyal" to the ex-emperor opposing the new dynasty, and were thus justified in their criminal activities to make life for the new emperor miserable. At least that's what they kept telling themselves. They even dared to say that their patron god is Guan Yu, the god of war and honour, to justify their drug trafickingm, sex slavery and God knows what other illegal activities they do.

Japanese Yakuza of course, have their legendary code of conduct "Jingi", to govern themselves and prevent their criminal empire from falling into infighting. If you can believe the stories, they even outlaw drug traficking among themselves.

Even the Scicilian mafia had their own "omerta" or code of silence, meaning even if one family has a feud on each other and wants to kill the other, NONE OF THEM are allowed to talk to the police.

Damn, I can't believe I am defending the Night Lords having their own code of honour, perverse though it seems. Oh well, compared to the other traitor legions, the Night Lords seemed somewhat saner than the rest, relying more on conventional terror tactics as opposed to mutation and chaos worship.

Anyway what I am saying, we can't say if one primarch is honourable or not based on our own preferences. We have to look at where the primarch came from to understand his way of thinking.

[High MarshalGR]

 

I have to say my viewpoint here about Horus. For me Horus isn't a man of honor unlike Russ.

 

Russ's honor is just like the whole "ignorant savage" song and dance he puts on...it's a mask to put you off your guard before the knife goes in your kidneys. Sure, he'll play the part of an bluff honorable Viking guy, but when push comes to shove Russ and the Wolves are very much a "Do what you gotta do" bunch. Unless you  see having Legionaries spy on allies by pretending to be their friends (Wyrdmake), killing a world by crashing a space station into it (The Quietude), or murdering the people of Shrike as they tried to surrender. Russ will be honorable right up to the second that "honor" gets in the way of him doing what he thinks the Emperor wants and then LOOK OUT!

 

As for Angron ruining the War Hounds...I don't know.

 

Given that they already practiced decimatio on allied Army cohorts and allowed sanguis extremis duels even before they found Angron, I'd say the Primarch may have pushed them but they were already standing on the edge looking thoughtfully into the abyss.

 

I'll clarify what I mean then. Another thing is battle tactics, cunningness, adjustability, versatility etc and another thing is honor in the given concept. Honor, as I mean it here to make it simple but I seem to have made things cloudy, is to at  be true to your OATH, not your everyday casual word or boasts or conversations. True, honor has got many definitions, but being true to OATHS (= a formal and serious promise to tell the truth or to do something, definition via online dictionary) you speak without an external force driving you, moving your lips instead of you, is a basis I believe is common through many cultures, very basic and fundumental worldwide (oathkeeper is a Japanese, an Ancient Greek, a Roman, a modern Greek and a now-used pretty much widely term as far as honor is involved) so that should be enough to cover you Kol (unless you want to troll or can't understand simple stuff). "Honor among thieves" exist and is a way thieves use in order to set the lines of the areas they steal without oaths, just by money. It is what I call a friendly exchange or a modus operandi, not an oath.

 

Russ does what he has to do, I think the katana definition covers that part, but with a pretty fine point: He does so because he wants to. No nails, no boundaries. He does what his will forms as what he must do. This is what I have understood so far at the very least. There are orders he follows and some he ignores. He is simply an oathkeeper, and that's the specific aspect of honor I used, by which Horus isn't honorable (he broke an oath he chose to give) while Russ held true to his oath. So simple.). I didn't stress this enough, my mistake.

 

As far as Prospero goes, the Emperor sent Russ to prosecute Magnus for the breaking of the edict of Nicaea and Horus intercepted and made the word "prosecute" "annihilate". Warmaster means that he speaks in the place of the Emperor, so his orders are de facto considered orders from the Emperor. What Russ wanted from this is the whole reason we started to discuss his complexity as an individual to begin with. 

[GhostMalone]

But for Horus an oath to the imperium to not fail was his honour turning against the emperor was not a broken oath as he still wanted humanity to be free.

 

He did what he could to stop the current 41st millenium from happening yes he was dooped but he wanted humanity free from his fathers lies and treachery and to ensure that this future (6th edition) never came to

[High MarshalGR]

But for Horus an oath to the imperium to not fail was his honour turning against the emperor was not a broken oath as he still wanted humanity to be free.

 

He did what he could to stop the current 41st millenium from happening yes he was dooped but he wanted humanity free from his fathers lies and treachery and to ensure that this future (6th edition) never came to

 

This is why I focused the oath part and left honor be. Because that can be told. I think he wanted to enslave humanity under his rule (no human goverment of course. He would be the beginning and the end and he would probably become Chaos food if he succeded) and all started from his egoism. Magnus gave him what he needed to know about the Warp. Another mistake (one of the many) the Emperor made was to give too much power without seeing clearly that his favourite son wasn't immune to Chaos like he is just because love sometimes makes people blind to the truth (same as Angron). Let's not enter the "what-if" scenarios, because there is no end anyway.  

 

I'll say it from a different perspective in order to make Emperor haters get it easier. Let's say X gives an oath to Khorne (any kind of oath, as long as Khorne is the other side of the oath). For me, he is as oathkeeper as well. Once his oath to Khorne is broken, he is not. Same thing with Russ and Horus (oath to the Emperor, which Russ held and Horus broke since the receiver of the oath was sh1tted on). 

 

Real life example: You give and oath to your wife that you won't cheat her. As long as don't cheat her, you are an oathkeeper of your oath. Once you cheat her (even if your intention is to make her jealous and appreciate you more), no matter what strategies you emply or excuses you find to yourself, the oath as you stated it is broken. 

[GhostMalone]

Hmmm see I can see problems with that.

Not trying to cause an outburst of rage from others just offering a scenario.

 

Angron swore to die by his brothers and sisters, therefore an oath was taken.

The emperor then teleported him up in which his family is slaughtered.

Angron even kills custodians to try and get back to them.

 

They are defeated angron lives but his oath is broken even though he had honour and was going to die for them

[High MarshalGR]

Hmmm see I can see problems with that.

Not trying to cause an outburst of rage from others just offering a scenario.

 

Angron swore to die by his brothers and sisters, therefore an oath was taken.

The emperor then teleported him up in which his family is slaughtered.

Angron even kills custodians to try and get back to them.

 

They are defeated angron lives but his oath is broken even though he had honour and was going to die for them

 

I far more than agree here. I stated before myself that Angron should have been left to die on Nyceria. Another mistake the Emperor made in my eyes (fatherly mistake, but still). No reason to destroy your son's wish and then expect to have his loyalty. This is where Angron behaved like and oathkeeper but the Emperor created a berseker and took him without ever earning his loyalty because he wanted to die where he promised he would die.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

I have to say my viewpoint here about Horus. For me Horus isn't a man of honor unlike Russ.

 

Russ's honor is just like the whole "ignorant savage" song and dance he puts on...it's a mask to put you off your guard before the knife goes in your kidneys. Sure, he'll play the part of an bluff honorable Viking guy, but when push comes to shove Russ and the Wolves are very much a "Do what you gotta do" bunch. Unless you  see having Legionaries spy on allies by pretending to be their friends (Wyrdmake), killing a world by crashing a space station into it (The Quietude), or murdering the people of Shrike as they tried to surrender. Russ will be honorable right up to the second that "honor" gets in the way of him doing what he thinks the Emperor wants and then LOOK OUT!

 

As for Angron ruining the War Hounds...I don't know.

 

Given that they already practiced decimatio on allied Army cohorts and allowed sanguis extremis duels even before they found Angron, I'd say the Primarch may have pushed them but they were already standing on the edge looking thoughtfully into the abyss.

 

 

 

I'll clarify what I mean then. Another thing is battle tactics, cunningness, adjustability, versatility etc and another thing is honor in the given concept. Honor, as I mean it here to make it simple, is to at least be true to your OATH, not your everyday casual word. True, honor has got many definitions, but being true to OATHS (= a formal and serious promise to tell the truth or to do something, definition via online dictionary) [/size]you speak without an external force driving you, moving your lips instead of you, is a basis I believe is common through many cultures, very basic and fundumental worldwide (oathkeeper is a Japanese, an Ancient Greek, a Roman, a modern Greek and a now-used pretty much widely term as far as honor is involved) so that should be enough to cover you Kol (unless you want to troll or can't understand simple stuff). "Honor among thieves" exist and is a way thieves use in order to set the lines of the areas they steal without oaths, just by money. It is what I call a friendly exchange, not an oath.

 

 

I'll be the first to admit that I am hard in the head. I'll also be the first to admit that due to differences in opinion(and yes, opinion, not facts) and receiving many insults in the form of being called a troll, I get very touchy about that specific word being used before, after or near my name. I believe you don't mean to call me one so, just saying. I get touchy around that word.

 

That said, back to the topic on hand. Yes, you are right, breaking an oath is in many cultures, a form of dishonor. I honestly can't think of many real world cultures where lying or oath-breaking is considered "honorable" or "good". Although the modern day habit of "white lies" might be an example of people starting to be "okay with it as long as it ends well".

 

Now, if we went to sci-fi, two cultures right off the top of my head of that would fit would be Klingons and the Ferengi. In TOS, they were reputable for conquering until the Argonian Treaty was signed, in which they would lie and cheat their way into claiming new worlds. Trouble with Tribbles is an example in which we see a spy pretending to be human while Koloth lied about any Klingon plots. There was also a DS9 episode(Way of the Warrior I believe) where Worf is warning everyone that there might be Klingon ships cloaked and waiting to ambush Cardassian transports. Bashir says "That's not very honorable." the reply was "There is nothing more honorable than victory." I mean heck, the DS9 episode "Nagus" had a whole bunch of Ferengi whining about how their reputation had been lied about and twisted in the Alpha Quadrant about how honorable they were and then they made jokes about breaking future contracts with races in the Gamma Quadrant.

 

I can't think of a real world precedent where lying and oath-breaking is considered honorable or laudable. Except maybe the Fae. But there is precedent in fictional universes where there are species/factions who believe that oath-breaking and lying is okay in certain situations, the same way we(generally speaking as a global society) view white lies as "okay".

 

I do not mean to troll. Just pointing out that to me and you, Horus is not honorable. For me, it's the fact that he made oaths to his sons as well as well as the Emperor. One moment of dishonor can be excused as a single moment of dishonor, especially as Horus was being externally influenced. But once it became 30-60 thousand oaths being broken by a choice, well there's a reason I make jokes about the Night Lords being honorable.

 

It's why even if Rune Priests are considered Librarians and therefore included within the Edict of the Nikea, that is the only moment we have of Russ breaking an oath(since he did make an oath to obey the Emperor in all things) I will accept him being honorable.

 

But, to someone else, maybe Horus is honorable. It might just be an in-universe character. It might be one single person in the real world. But it is an opinion. And as an opinion and as someone who respects opinions and someone who preaches respect for others' opinions, I will never tell that person they are wrong. I will say and explain why I don't share that opinion, but that is the extent.

 

Not saying you are wrong. Not saying I am right. I am not saying Horus is honorable. I am not saying he isn't. That is up for each individual person to decide.

[GhostMalone]

Kol brother it's okay your no troll once again it comes down to the English language everyone has their own interpretations of literature and language.

 

At the end of the day these arguments happen due to misinterpretation or bias or even differing ethics morals and views.

 

As long as we present a clear understanding we can't be faulted, I believe when I first joined my first conversation was an arguementbis with you on lorgar and angrons relationship & due to misinterpretation I realised we were both trying to prove the exact same point :D

[Kol Saresk]

True true. Although, I would like to think of this situation as a debate where everyone is expressing their individual opinions rather than an argument.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

This is still going on? How many different ways can the minutiae of the exact same viewpoint be bandied back and forth?

 

It's dead, my brothers. You've killed the horse. Ground into it into its constituent components.

[GhostMalone]

I believe ours was an argument though. If I'm proven wrong I will acknowledge it and may even adapt my view as I know there have been times you have as well.

 

I'm no fan of the space wolves but I can respect the character development happening with Russ. Scars episode vi has made him more realistic especially dealing with jaghati.

 

Still think he is an arrogant twat and an honourable fool.

 

But I even consider perturabo honourable angron homourable and so on. The only primarch I feel doesn't show honour is alpaharius/omegon as there alpha legion and they are mysterious.

 

All primarchs have honour but as it's been said honour can't be defined and is open to individualistic interpretation.

 

Hence why we all have the legions we connect with we are human the primarchs are human and they cover every aspect of humanity

[Kol Saresk]

This is still going on? How many different ways can the minutiae of the exact same viewpoint be bandied back and forth?

It's dead, my brothers. You've killed the horse. Ground into it into its constituent components.

I refer you to Curze's bedchambers

[Kasper_Hawser]

Just curious, did I somehow accidentally insult everyone? Seems like no one acknowledges my past few posts.

 

Kol Saresk, if you are a troll, then I'm the a Domionion Jem Ha Dar. You have been nothing but open minded to everyone's ideas yet still firm to your own personal opinions speaks highly of your character and I really appreciate you supporting this thread early on despite my ignorance on many issues. Kudos to you for being wise in the lore of Star Trek as well, although I'm more of a Babylon 5 fan. :) Ah Worf, I dearly miss you.

 

@ Jaspcat, I agree with you of all the primarchs being honourable in their own way, even if I don't want to admit it or admire them for it, from Angron to Kurze. Seriously though, reading anything about the twin primarchs of Alpha Legion is bloody confusing. I think we can safely that for those two, we actually have no real world comparisons to connect those two.

 

@ Kage - Never say that we have exhausted all avenues of discussion unless you can really read all our minds and say nobody has any new ideas or line of thoughts regarding Russ. Though I somewhat agree that at this point, we probably have discussed most of what can be said about Russ pending any new revelations from the Scars novel.

[GhostMalone]

@kasper- sorry mate didn't realise I hadn't replied I'm sort of half asleep at work blasting music while I'm stuck in my machine due to rain

[Conn Eremon]

Well, that's a nightmarish thought. Imagine what happens after Edward Scissor-Kreuger gets the girl . . .

 

Here's a thought about Horus' honor: I see most people who defend him and his rebellion use the prophecy of a 40k vision in which he is absent as his spark. All decisions and actions stem from an attempt to save humanity from the Emperor, based off of this Davinite dream-trance. And that would be honorable, as I see it. But I don't think that is his cause. It isn't that I don't think it's honorable, but that the thing that may or may not be honorable doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if Horus' Heresy is honorable if saving humanity is its goal, because that isn't its goal. Horus does not care about humanity. He cares about himself, his sons, his brothers and their sons, in that order. His rebellion stems from the fact that he can't stand the idea of humanity getting the spotlight over himself. When he saw a vision of the future, the thing that disturbed him was his own absence. His decisions and actions, whose honor is debatable, are ultimately and utterly selfish. He isn't tearing down a dictator, he wants to be the dictator. He isn't trying to save humanity, humanity is in his way. That isn't even the insidious influence of Chaos responsible for this. That is all Horus, from beginning to end. Chaos just revealed the way. Debate away about how honorable he is or is not, to Horus it all boils down to the accumulation of more and more power.

[GhostMalone]

I believe after istvaan iii Horus died as the last spark of honour left when he couldn't protect his own sons. Pre betrayal he was fine but once he allowed the taint fully in his soul died and he became a meat puppet for chaos.

[Kol Saresk]

@Kasper: Sorry, I wasn't ignoring you. Somethings we agreed and on others, other people pretty much said something similar to my own opinion.

 

But thank you for the kind words.

 

EDIT: I'd actually say that his honor died when he was able to let the Emperor kill him. Until then, it had just been shot, hanged, drowned, buried and forgotten, but a small spark managed to survive until that final moment. At least, IMO.

[Conn Eremon]

I don't think a "real" Horus died, at Isstvan or anywhere else. I think, after Davin, he stopped pretending.

 

Kasper, your posts tend to be long, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself. However for myself, who tends to be on B&C via smartphone, I'd rather reply to short posts with a short post.

[GhostMalone]

But corruption set in and in visions at the final moment horus came back and demanded to be ended

[Conn Eremon]

Because he failed and wanted to put the mask back on.

 

Some people, after living a while being honest with themselves, will, in a moment of clarity, decide they liked themselves better before. Probably true for most people.

[GhostMalone]

Ill accept that :)

[Conn Eremon]

It actually can be expanded beyond Horus. Chaos corrupts, but the corruption doesn't change anything. It isolates and exaggerates. A Chaos corrupted entity remains itself, which is why the corruption can't be the culprit and why no traitor is blameless. In Horus' case, he allowed that corruption in. He willingly chose for those traits to be exaggerated into dominance. He wanted to be what he became and didn't want to be anything different until he was on the verge of a death his new life led him straight to.