Kasper_Hawser Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Frankly speaking, I don't really despise Horus anymore than I despise Lorgar, Kurze, Alpharius/Omegon and the rest of the traitor primarchs. He merely got the lion's share of the blame of the whole heresy merely because of his position as warmaster. But I shouldn't contribute to this particular discussion as I haven't read any of the Horus books. Then again, Cormac has a point: most of the time, chaos corrupts what is already there, and Horus as far I see, was always a glory seeker, even if it is to continue being the favoured son of his father, to continue being First among equals, sometimes at the expense of his other brothers. One exception to the rule of chaos corrupting what is already there is the case of Mortarion and his death guard. I mean seriously, coming from a poison planet aside, does anyone honestly see the Death Guard before their corruption as resembling Nurgle? They didn't have any morbid tendencies, its not like all of them had a death wish or liked the idea of living as zombies. In a sense, they were exemplary Space Marines with a repuation for reliability and resilience, not psychotic in any sense. the only part where they resembled Nurgle was in the sense that their tactics were .... "boring" and infantry focused. It was only because of Typhus trapping them in the warp that they became chaos corrupted, Mortarion forced to accept Nurgle to save himself and his legion. OK, better stop here since you all mentioned that my posts are super long. Thanks for pointing that out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Good point, the Deathguard were basically forced to go to Nurgle. I would like to read a book were it explains why Mortarion joined Horus. I'm on book 16 so maybe one is coming up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Old explanation is that Mortarion simply couldn't handle the pain after the whole Legion was afflicted by multiple plagues while en route to Terra - blame Typhon. Both the physical pain and the trauma of seeing himself on Barbarus about to be killed by his father made him swear fealty to Nurgle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I have to say my viewpoint here about Horus. For me Horus isn't a man of honor unlike Russ. Russ's honor is just like the whole "ignorant savage" song and dance he puts on...it's a mask to put you off your guard before the knife goes in your kidneys. Sure, he'll play the part of an bluff honorable Viking guy, but when push comes to shove Russ and the Wolves are very much a "Do what you gotta do" bunch. Unless you see having Legionaries spy on allies by pretending to be their friends (Wyrdmake), killing a world by crashing a space station into it (The Quietude), or murdering the people of Shrike as they tried to surrender. Russ will be honorable right up to the second that "honor" gets in the way of him doing what he thinks the Emperor wants and then LOOK OUT! As for Angron ruining the War Hounds...I don't know. Given that they already practiced decimatio on allied Army cohorts and allowed sanguis extremis duels even before they found Angron, I'd say the Primarch may have pushed them but they were already standing on the edge looking thoughtfully into the abyss. I'll clarify what I mean then. Another thing is battle tactics, cunningness, adjustability, versatility etc and another thing is honor in the given concept. Honor, as I mean it here to make it simple, is to at least be true to your OATH, not your everyday casual word. True, honor has got many definitions, but being true to OATHS (= a formal and serious promise to tell the truth or to do something, definition via online dictionary) [/size]you speak without an external force driving you, moving your lips instead of you, is a basis I believe is common through many cultures, very basic and fundumental worldwide (oathkeeper is a Japanese, an Ancient Greek, a Roman, a modern Greek and a now-used pretty much widely term as far as honor is involved) so that should be enough to cover you Kol (unless you want to troll or can't understand simple stuff). "Honor among thieves" exist and is a way thieves use in order to set the lines of the areas they steal without oaths, just by money. It is what I call a friendly exchange, not an oath. I'll be the first to admit that I am hard in the head. I'll also be the first to admit that due to differences in opinion(and yes, opinion, not facts) and receiving many insults in the form of being called a troll, I get very touchy about that specific word being used before, after or near my name. I believe you don't mean to call me one so, just saying. I get touchy around that word. That said, back to the topic on hand. Yes, you are right, breaking an oath is in many cultures, a form of dishonor. I honestly can't think of many real world cultures where lying or oath-breaking is considered "honorable" or "good". Although the modern day habit of "white lies" might be an example of people starting to be "okay with it as long as it ends well". Now, if we went to sci-fi, two cultures right off the top of my head of that would fit would be Klingons and the Ferengi. In TOS, they were reputable for conquering until the Argonian Treaty was signed, in which they would lie and cheat their way into claiming new worlds. Trouble with Tribbles is an example in which we see a spy pretending to be human while Koloth lied about any Klingon plots. There was also a DS9 episode(Way of the Warrior I believe) where Worf is warning everyone that there might be Klingon ships cloaked and waiting to ambush Cardassian transports. Bashir says "That's not very honorable." the reply was "There is nothing more honorable than victory." I mean heck, the DS9 episode "Nagus" had a whole bunch of Ferengi whining about how their reputation had been lied about and twisted in the Alpha Quadrant about how honorable they were and then they made jokes about breaking future contracts with races in the Gamma Quadrant. I can't think of a real world precedent where lying and oath-breaking is considered honorable or laudable. Except maybe the Fae. But there is precedent in fictional universes where there are species/factions who believe that oath-breaking and lying is okay in certain situations, the same way we(generally speaking as a global society) view white lies as "okay". I do not mean to troll. Just pointing out that to me and you, Horus is not honorable. For me, it's the fact that he made oaths to his sons as well as well as the Emperor. One moment of dishonor can be excused as a single moment of dishonor, especially as Horus was being externally influenced. But once it became 30-60 thousand oaths being broken by a choice, well there's a reason I make jokes about the Night Lords being honorable. It's why even if Rune Priests are considered Librarians and therefore included within the Edict of the Nikea, that is the only moment we have of Russ breaking an oath(since he did make an oath to obey the Emperor in all things) I will accept him being honorable. But, to someone else, maybe Horus is honorable. It might just be an in-universe character. It might be one single person in the real world. But it is an opinion. And as an opinion and as someone who respects opinions and someone who preaches respect for others' opinions, I will never tell that person they are wrong. I will say and explain why I don't share that opinion, but that is the extent. Not saying you are wrong. Not saying I am right. I am not saying Horus is honorable. I am not saying he isn't. That is up for each individual person to decide. I simply told that to avoid the troll situations that arise when a simple consept (or a consept made simple) is taken and thrown to the garbage bin of the whole "That's your opinion, go to hell" and forgetting we are simply trying to find a destination for our matter at hand. That being said, you didn't troll. I told that to help you avoid trolling anyway, if you were up to it. Since you did not do it, you simply misintercepted me and thought I called you a troll beforehand which wasn't my intention anyway. And that's why with the rest of my post you quoted from, I tried my best to set what I meant straight since I indeed let it loose in my previous posts, and took honor out of the question since what you told happens. So, for me, Horus when viewed from the aspect of an oathkeeper, he is not one. I would never trust him personally if I knew that an oath he gave with his heart and will in it (not simply swore just for the heck of it, which I don't consider an oath but an obligation) and he didn't keep. That's a way I find appropriate for putting my trust. Luna Wolves fortunately have Gavriel Loken, who was a man who embodied many things I do enjoy and a man I would personally trust. Same goes for Garro. They give me no reason not to trust them. This is why I omitted the whole honorable thing because of it's subjectiveness which makes it a hard factor to use in forums due to it's subjective nature and kept the oathkeep which is pretty straightforward. I am not posting out of hard-headedness but from a need to keep a nice conversation alive with correcting factors towards my posts where I connect terms which I don't want to use in the first place, and then post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Horus' 'opening' that was exploited by the Chaos Gods wasn't his personality. It was his resentment towards the Emperor for leaving him to deal with the entirety of the Imperium's war effort (especially his brothers) as if he'd just naturally adapt. Horus did do well, for a while, but ended up snapping - he was probably more of a field or campaign leader than an administrator, like the Emperor managed to be. Personality-wise, Horus is far, far from being the worst. He's an extremely successful character, a high achiever that has the charisma and social skills to attract those around him, is rational and inteligent enough to value criticism (in fact, to keep it near him). Like many other high achievers, he got too invested in his work. It's a personal opinion, but I found the way he talked to his supposedly closer brothers to be a bit...fabricated, like that friend from your usual-group of friends who knows almost as much about you as the others but with whom you don't quite feel at ease to just be your perfect self. Sometimes it seemed he viewed every conversation strategically. The fact that he jumps on Sanguinius when the angel is putting down a rabid Legionnaire could be proof, I think. This behaviour, perhaps, helped unanchor Horus from close personal contact, leaving him unprotected against Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Horus' 'opening' that was exploited by the Chaos Gods wasn't his personality. It was his resentment towards the Emperor for leaving him to deal with the entirety of the Imperium's war effort (especially his brothers) as if he'd just naturally adapt. Horus did do well, for a while, but ended up snapping - he was probably more of a field or campaign leader than an administrator, like the Emperor managed to be. Personality-wise, Horus is far, far from being the worst. He's an extremely successful character, a high achiever that has the charisma and social skills to attract those around him, is rational and inteligent enough to value criticism (in fact, to keep it near him). Like many other high achievers, he got too invested in his work. It's a personal opinion, but I found the way he talked to his supposedly closer brothers to be a bit...fabricated, like that friend from your usual-group of friends who knows almost as much about you as the others but with whom you don't quite feel at ease to just be your perfect self. Sometimes it seemed he viewed every conversation strategically. The fact that he jumps on Sanguinius when the angel is putting down a rabid Legionnaire could be proof, I think. This behaviour, perhaps, helped unanchor Horus from close personal contact, leaving him unprotected against Chaos. I do agree. He is extremely successful, I don't doubt that. Proof is the status he achieved during the Great Crusade. Him being the Warmaster wasn't just for the sake of "being daddy's boy", but because aside from that, he was excellent at bringing forces of different natures together via his charismatic personality. He had the whole "steely demeandor" thing, but judging from his position, he kinda needed it in order to bring his haters to follow the orders he gave because of his rank. Many of the actions Horus took were well placed and nicely used to begin with (according to his role). In a conversation with Loken, after the ceremony used to include him in the mournival, I recall Loken getting a pretty negative feeling from Horus when he mentioned the secret project about which the Emperor never told him about. I find such spots to be presenting of the highly egoistical -to an extreme point- characted that Horus had presented. This made him dangerous in the first place for me, as far as putting trust to him goes. Guilliman and Dorn were also big shots me thinks, but their ego was limited in a way really different than Horus's was. RG may have truly thought he should have been the Warmaster, but when he wasn't elected he simply moved on with it. Dorn knew he was great (in a general sense), but he paid heed to those he wanted to hear. Horus lacked that "balancing" trait of egoism those 2 had and moved on to the level of Narcissism as far as I can remember judging from his actions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 True, but Horus was also a far better 'people's person'. That counts for a good deal, he managed to work with just about everyone, while Dorn and Guill wanted to punch Curze and Angron, respectively, as soon as the laters started being themselves (that is, killing indiscriminately). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 True, but Horus was also a far better 'people's person'. That counts for a good deal, he managed to work with just about everyone, while Dorn and Guill wanted to punch Curze and Angron, respectively, as soon as the laters started being themselves (that is, killing indiscriminately). Yes, RG was too nerdy (lol) and Dorn was too honest and searching the truth to be liked. haven't you heard the saying "the most frightening thing in the world is the truth"? Not everyone could handle that attitude which usually turns people away from you, and this is a reason I find good for him to not be really popular unlike Horus. Horus was indeed some sort of "people's champ". That's what I said too. Terrific ammount of charisma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 A lecture on Honor from a Night Lord..... how quaint :P "They are not knights, but they have honor of a sort." Corswain, paladin of the Dark Angels, discussing Sheng and Sevatar of the VIII Legion. SAVAGE WEAPONS Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 A lecture on Honor from a Night Lord..... how quaint "They are not knights, but they have honor of a sort." Corswain, paladin of the Dark Angels, discussing Sheng and Sevatar of the VIII Legion. SAVAGE WEAPONS As I mentioned before, even criminals have their own sense of honour. That's why to measure honour, we have to look at the background of the person we are judging, not by our own. i also read that particular short story. LOL, for a so-called knight, the Lion did a first rate job of backstabing Kurze with a big effing sword. Remember that last part where that Dark Angel was asked where his sword was? "I left it in a primarch's spine" (Kurze.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The sort that fights 2-on-1 in a duel situation...=p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The sort that fights 2-on-1 in a duel situation...=p I never thought of that. Lion opened with a sucker punch, he and Corswain double teamed Curze..wow. Johnson literally used every underhanded trick except throwing a handful of sand in the Haunter's eyes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Even the Lion is an oath breaker... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Even the Lion is an oath breaker... Wait... You can't possibly mean... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Even the Lion is an oath breaker... Wait... You can't possibly mean... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Well, he did have a temporary cease-fire with Curze that he(the Lion) broke :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I was actually talking about Sevatar and Shen double-teaming Alajos but yes, the Angels' list of honour-breaking acts is long as hell. Well, all is fair in war and duels with Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Well, yeah, that's expected of Night Lords. "If there is no advantage, make one and seize it." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Well, yeah, that's expected of Night Lords. "If there is no advantage, make one and seize it." LOL, it appears we have exhausted all we can discuss about Russ since we are now moving on to who's the bigger backstabber, Lion or Kurze. Ironically its the Lion, the big freakin knight. LOL, Oathbreaker indeed. Just didn't expect Lion to pull a Night Lord tactic out of the blue in that story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 In the interests of fairness, after Isstvan V I don't think any of the soon to be Chaos Undivided Legions are allowed to complain about double crossing and backstabbery ever again. As for the Johnson, he may look all knightly now, but he did grow up fighting monsters in a hell forest with rocks and pointy sticks. I think he'd agree with...I believe it was one of the Kings of Sparta who said: "Where the skin of the lion is insufficient covering, it must be patched with the skin of the fox." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3458941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Native Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Regarding Russ' arrogance/belligerence/hypocritical/confident nature - if you are the designated person within a fraternity of brothers, where each is a preternatural superhuman whose role is to sanction/slay/execute a brother that strays grossly from what is deemed acceptable in your Father's Empire - then it stands to reason that you must possess a high degree of arrogance/belligerance/confidence and/or be hypocritical when you come to undertake your role. An unshakeable belief that what you are doing is for the good of the cause you serve is a pre-requisite, in my opinion, because to have a shadow of doubt would not let you fulfil your role to the best of your ability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3486791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 However, the question is "who designated Russ?" The question is brought up in Betrayer and it has never been answered. Either Russ is Emperor-ordained, or he is self-ordained. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3486798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I would lean towards self-ordained, although that is my personal opinion and quite frankly I just despise Space Wolves as a whole, nearly as much as I despise Thousand Sons. They certainly take the top two slots of lamest Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3486803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Native Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 However, the question is "who designated Russ?" The question is brought up in Betrayer and it has never been answered. Either Russ is Emperor-ordained, or he is self-ordained. Would a Primarch need to be shoulder tapped and explicilty told of his role? Or would you expect his apparent talent and inate intelligence to be enough for him and his brothers to recognise it? Personally I think he wasn't explicitly told, but it would've heavily implied and Primarchs being quite autonomous beings - he would run with it until told otherwise. There are instances in Prosperous Burns where Wolves state what their role is. And given that other Legions are aware of the notion the Wolves are what they say they are - I think its safe to say that whether he was told or or came to his own conclusion - Russ is correct. I would lean towards self-ordained, although that is my personal opinion and quite frankly I just despise Space Wolves as a whole, nearly as much as I despise Thousand Sons. They certainly take the top two slots of lamest Legions. So basically you're saying, "I hate Space Wolves and will therefore think the worst of them." Cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3486852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I think that many of the Primarchs chose their own roles, not because of some special genetic encoding that removed their free will and confined them to a specific purpose, but because it was the role they believed was the one most comfortable for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3486865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 In some cases, however, I think it was genetically ordained. We know he had plans for the Primarchs. You don't build retirement homes otherwise. We know Magnus was meant for the Throne. We know that many of their genetic differences were intentional. Speculation begins on what those intentions are. We know that Perturabo's genetics are both exceptional aids in getting one's body to accept and utilize mechanical attachments and known to have the psychological impact of societal disconnection, depression and bitterness. But why did the Emperor want that? A cyborg outcast? Maybe, Perturabo was intended to find common cause with the Mechanicum, be the Emperor's proxy among them. Who knows. We know they had a purpose, we just don't know what. We also know that russ' genetics have canine in it. Why? Think of all those in-universe quotes relating their utter obedience to that of a dog. Is that what the Emperor wanted of Russ? A loyal dog? Why? It implies that he intended to have one Primarch more loyal than the rest, for this one was genetically destined for loyalty. Why make sure you have one Primarch more loyal than the others? But whatever the Emperor's plans, Chaos changed them. The home worlds were not planned. There is no way the Emperor planned on Nuceria or Nostromo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279790-the-complexity-of-leman-russ-spoiler-heavy/page/8/#findComment-3487023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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