The Complexity of Leman Russ (Spoiler heavy)

[Augustus]

He might of. With Pre-Night Lords being made up of Earth's prisoners. The War Hounds having a penchant for rage and ruthlessness. The 1st being secretive before the Lion was found. The Emperor told Corax he but a bit of himself into all of them(primarchs)

 

I am of two minds. The Emperor had the primarchs stolen but he was able to direct them somewhat to the planets they fell upon. and/or the geneseed is psychically related to primarchs therefore traits were inherited despite the primarchs not being found until later. 

 

It could have been a big chess came with the Emperor v. the Four. The Emperor won some with Guillimen and Dorn, got tricked with Horus, lost some with Mortarion. Possibly.

[Noctus Cornix]

So basically you're saying, "I hate Space Wolves and will therefore think the worst of them."

 

Cool.

 

No, I am giving fair and practical warning that my thoughts on the matter may be completely biased so as to take my opinion with several hundred grains of salt. I don't simply think the worst of anyone or anything but that doesn't stop an inherent bias to skew information in a more negative aspect in my head.  Like I said, purely opinion.

[Daddywarcrimes]

However, the question is "who designated Russ?" The question is brought up in Betrayer and it has never been answered. Either Russ is Emperor-ordained, or he is self-ordained.

 

 

 Twice now, groups of Wolves have shown up with other legions, bearing written instructions from the Sigilite to observe, report, and intervene if the primarchs they watch step out of line.  Unless Russ is forging the Sigilite's seal, there really is no question of where the Sixth got this mandate.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

on the issue of Mortarion's loyalty: I remember in the Death Guard IA (for what its worth now...) both Guilliman and Corax approaching the Emperor with words of caution of where Mortarion loyalty was. (They said he was loyal to Horus, and not the Emperor. The Emperor dismissed this saying that loyalty to Horus WAS loyalty to the Emperor)

 

on Russ's mandate: I could easily believe a more...manipulative or morally fleixble figure of authority in the early Imperium (Malcador) could have aided or presented Russ in the executioner idea, and then started to make ot official when he was given full power by proxy by the Emperor.

 

By words written though, I cannot remember a single exchange where Russ has acknowledge his adopted role was presented to him.

 

WLK

[Scribe]

Given a mandate for a specific event, is not the same as a permanent and official role. If the Wolves where 'the executioners' they wouldnt need a mandate signed by Malcador at all now would he?

 

The Wolves are given special dispensation. They are not executioners by role within the legions, otherwise, it would be known, accepted, and dealt with.

 

The fact they are presenting paperwork just means they are GIVEN permission, on a case by case basis, not that they already had it.

[Kol Saresk]

However, the War Hounds were the first to be speculated as "the Emperor's Executioners". So if the VI were designed with something similar in mind, why was someone else chosen first?

[Conn Eremon]

The War Hounds were executioners of convenience. The Emperor needed a Legion to execute something, and the War Hounds were the only ones present. The rest either hadn't formed yet or were already outside of Sol.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Kol; Maybe the War Hounds proved unreliable and an alternate option was looked for?

@Scribe: Maybe a mandate was needed for other Primarchs to accept the role, to dispel any BS like occured after Horus because the Warmaster. Kind of like how a police officer in uniform can still be requested to present proper ID, only on a larger scale. If a third party came into my home to observe me, I'd damn sure want to knw they had the authority to do that. And I lack the pride/arrogance of a Primarch.

 

Also, I want to say in general, I somewhat loathe the executioner bit for the Wolves...I am trying to make sense of it with what knowledge I have of W30k.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

After Angron showed up, I can fully believe that. However, if we go with "the War Hounds were convenient" or "they became unreliable", then we still come to bumps.

 

Convenience: Why wasn't the VI available?

IIRC, WoT mentioned that in Massacre, they spent some alone time with the Emperor as well. But the War Hounds were the ones who started out with rumors of being the executioners while the Wolves would pick up those rumors only after their Primarch was found. Was there some unknown catastrophe comparable to the Flesh-Change?

 

Replacement: Well, this one is pretty obvious. If the Wolves had to replace the War Hounds because of some failing, then it means the Wolves were not meant to be the Executioners, but were instead picked because they happened to be the next best thing.

[Noctus Cornix]

The War Hounds were executioners of convenience. The Emperor needed a Legion to execute something, and the War Hounds were the only ones present. The rest either hadn't formed yet or were already outside of Sol.

 

But, and this is just my opinion, couldn't the same thing be said about the Space Wolves? At the time, the Space Wolves and the Imperial Fists were really the only Legions in the vicinity of Terra, if memory serves me correctly. Imperial Fists are obviously preoccupied with bolstering Terra with a few movements out to engage the enemy. The Space Wolves are among the Legions that have an almost fanatical loyalty to the Emperor, and being the only one really available, wouldn't it be the smartest thing to send them to take down Magnus?

 

Even if this is not the case and it is indeed true that the Space Wolves are sactioned as the Emperor's 'executioners', I personally see it only furthering the view that Space Wolves are a bunch of lap dogs and watch dogs. Doesn't make them better, just more loyal. Once again fairly biased in that assessment but its what I see. 

[Conn Eremon]

I am not saying one is true over the other, because no hard facts about it exist. All we can do is make inferences.off of the tidbits we do know. Like, we know the War Hounds claim to that role is their actions on Cerberus, against the Thunder Warriors. We also know that, at that time, the War Hounds were the only Legion available for that attack. The other Legions were either not ready yet, or unborn, or already off doing their thing outside of Terra. We can infer a lot of things. For myself, I believe they were used for the sole purpose of convenience. The Emperor needed an executioner's axe, but he had only one blade in the shed. He was even surprised they did the job as well as they did. However, it is certainly enough to allow them to believe they were meant to, just like the Space Wolves can.

 

The Space Wolves, on the other hand, might have been intended to be that blade. Key word being might, because we don't actually know. Forgive me for repeating myself, but in my head, it comes back to that dog's obedience quote, and the fact that Russ, and by extension his Legion, have Canine DNA. We don't know why they were given it, but they were. It is the Emperor who did it, and we can all agree I'm sure, that he didn't do it for the lols. Why he did it we can all come up with our own ideas and opinions, but he had to have done it for a reason. Considering where the books have been going, it is possible that they were intended to be absolutely obedient. Loyal like only a dog can be. And it is possible that they were intended as a last resort. The one Legion that would do anything the Emperor commanded them, when others might balk at them, twist them, or over exceed them. But maybe that doesn't mean to execute as in kill other Legions and Primarchs. Maybe that is an extension they took upon themselves and was ratified by Malcador once one was needed. Or maybe Malcador suggested the role and they claimed it. Or maybe both of them are merely continuing with what the Emperor wished of them, officially or not.

 

But again, these are all a bunch of possibilities. We don't know.

[Kol Saresk]

True. Although, IIRC Betrayal correctly, the War Hounds never made the claim to the title. Others speculated the title for them and then used Cerberus, as well as the amount of quality time they spent with the Emperor as proof of the claim.

 

Although funnily enough, it seems recently that all Canines are now Canis Lupus with dogs being Canis Lupus Familiaris. Or its always been that way and I was just ignorant. But basically, we know they have canine DNA, but we don't know which canine. They could have poodle! :teehee:

 

And when you think about, the VI, VIII and XII Legions all act like a pack of canines in their own way.

 

It's definitely a weird situation and definitely requires delicacy because while there are a ton of in-universe things said about the subject, but everything is hearsay in some fashion or another.

[The Native]

The fact that the Space Wolves will do anything that is asked of them by the Emperor and are willing to go to extremes over and above what other Legions would consider - including "sanction" of another Legion - makes me think that they weren't or didn't set out to label themselves "executioners" but that was the title that was laid upon them after a particularly extreme act. Perhaps they weren't created to be the Emperor's Executioner but by an extension of their mandate, role or willingness to do what needed to be done that is what they were known as. 

 

If someone robs then kills someone else, they're not known as a thief - they're known as a killer.

[Noctus Cornix]

 

But again, these are all a bunch of possibilities. We don't know.

 

 

 

The statement that encompasses all of Warhammer.

[Scribe]

Follow the Emperors orders, better then any other Legion, I can accept, I think its silly, but I can accept it.

 

Its the 'will go farther than anyone else' bit that rankles, because EVERY legion claims that.

 

World Eaters - Nobody would throw themselves at the enemy like us!

Iron Warriors - Nobody would crawl through the trenches like us!

Night Lords - Nobody took on sin, and fear, like us!

Word Bearers - Nobody accepts the reality of the warp like us!

 

Its a cheap claim to make, and holds no water.

 

Extra loyal? Sure.

Going further than any other legion? Not at all.

[Conn Eremon]

It's an odd connection to make to say that the Space Wolves' claim to "go beyond" means they are stepping on the toes of the likes of the Word Bearers' claim to going beyond simple belief or the Night Lords' claim to striking from the darkest shadows so that no one else need go there.

 

The one has nothing to do with the others. The Space Wolves are not breaking into the territory of others or are superior to others. They just got a thing, like pretty much every Legion does. They are unique. Just like everyone else.

[Scribe]

Thats exactly it Cormac.

 

Would any legion claim to be as filthy and so in favour of wanton desecration as the Night Lords?

Would any legion claim to be as devout, and spiritual as the Word Bearers, as mystic as the Thousand Sons?

 

Of course not. The idea of such a claim is shallow and foolish.

 

Now, there are direct quotes of the Wolves 'willing to go further than anyone else.' what does that even mean?

 

Go further. Pull out all the stops? Butcher millions? What does it even mean?

 

Go further, be more relentless? Than.....World Eaters? Endure more? Than....Death Guard?

 

Wolves stand on their own, but let Loyalty be that line. Its the 'there are space marines...and then there are Space Marines' type bravado that is so comical, that for it to be perpetuated STILL, just insults the rest of the setting.

 

Being loyal, thats their thing. Following orders, thats their thing.

 

Going further (again, golly gee does that even mean in the context of the setting) DOES step on everyone elses toes, why do you think people have been flaming over it for 3 years.

[Conn Eremon]

Then stop acting as if that's how the Wolves are being portrayed. How is complaining about something you're projecting onto them any better than those who glory in those same projections?

 

When the Space Wolves are being portrayed as "Nobody goes further," they are talking about that level of obedience and loyalty, whether true or perceived, as you can see explicitly by the context given each time such a thing comes up in the books. Not "We'll butcher millions more than the World Eaters!" Or "Ha! Endure that, former Dusk Raider!" As in "We will do as commanded. We won't hesitate, we won't doubt it, we won't question it, twist it or go beyond it. We will never go against it. We.will go further than any other in the pursuit of that command."

 

And that steps on NOBODY'S TOES.

They won't out-butcher the World Eaters, but they won't become lost in it either.

They won't out-endure the Death Guard, but they won't relish in it for its own sake either.

They won't outperform the Luna Wolves, but they won't feel the need to do so either.

They won't go further into the darkness than the Night Lords, but they won't be changed by that darkness either.

They won't be as devout as the Word Bearers, but they won't cling so desperately to their beliefs either.

 

Like every Legion, they have their positives and their negatives. And like every Legion, neither outshines the other, or those of the other Legions.

[Scribe]

Oh if only that was how it was actually portrayed. The balance you have discussed is not present and its not clearly about loyalty, at all, thats just how I can justify it to myself, otherwise I spiral into depression over the portrayal of a very solid characterization.

 

The wolves negatives are never up for discussion so far, never displayed. They do as they are told, but 'go further' is not clearly about orders at all, thats just how I (we?) choose to look at it so they are not mary sue out of control.

 

"We will go further than any other in the pursuit of that command"

 

This still isnt answered. Go further in what way? If they are told to take a city, and the only way to do it is to butcher the civilians, will they do it? And if so, is that exactly what I am talking about?

[Scribe]

Actually, Unremember Empire DOES touch on this as Russ' loyalty 'Shames all of us.' to paraphrase Rob. That is what they should hang their hat on, all this executioner stuff needs.to.die.

[Conn Eremon]

"We will go further than any other in the pursuit of that command"

 

This still isnt answered. Go further in what way? If they are told to take a city, and the only way to do it is to butcher the civilians, will they do it? And if so, is that exactly what I am talking about?

If they are told to butcher the city, they would butcher the city. No questions, done, because that's the order The World Eaters would do it just because, orders be damned. THAT'S the difference. The Thousand Sons would balk at the loss of knowledge. THAT'S the difference. The Salamanders would balk at the loss of life. THAT'S the difference. The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus would get someone else to do it, namely the World Eaters. THAT'S the difference. The Night Lords would do it in the most horrific way, for funzies. THAT'S the difference.

 

I recently re-read the two Prospero books, and just finished Unremembered Empire. They made it quite clear to me. AD-B's quotes from the Night Lords and World Eaters, if nothing else, seals the deal on how the Wolves are being portrayed.

 

Do the Wolves themselves think they are the best? Of course. It'd be weird if they didn't. Because that is a dang common Marine trait, thinking their Legion is the superior Legion. Only the more forward-thinking or humble Legions don't, like the Ultramarines, Salamanders or Raven Guard, though even in that they have a sense of superiority.

[Scribe]

I may be able to buy that. I'll re-read those books (ATS/PB) and close my eyes at the executioner parts...

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi all, wow, I'm surprised somebody was willing to bring this up again after the furious debate we had a few weeks ago.

 

I've heard that Unremembered Empire has touched a little on Russ. Can I ask for spoilers since I live in a country that has no Games Workshop?

 

Cormac, Scribe of Khorne, I think you guys need to take a step back for a breather. From what I read, you are arguing about what makes the Wolves unique, which is their supposed dog-like loyalty and willingness to do anything to achieve their objectives: Cormac arguing for and Scribe arguing against. While I'm inclined to agree with Cormac, Scribe does put a valid point in that ALL legions are capable of going beyond their so called "area of expertise" such as Mortarion's infantry tactics or Khan's lightning attacks.

 

Let's try to come back to the topic of Russ character himself, rather than his legion's reputation and tactics.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I would lean towards self-ordained, although that is my personal opinion and quite frankly I just despise Space Wolves as a whole, nearly as much as I despise Thousand Sons. They certainly take the top two slots of lamest Legions.

 

May I ask specifically what you don't like about the Space Wolves? I don't mean to start a flame war, just curious about your opinion. Is it any one of the following options?

1) Space Viking portrayal

2) the whole Executioner argument

3) the whole Nikea edict argument

4) Style of playing in the 40K universe

5) awesomeness compared to other legions. :)

 

OK, ignore number 5. But I can safely say that most who don't like the VI Legion fall into category 1,2 and 3.

[Scribe]

1 - Hardly an issue. Prospero Burns made this much much better.

2 - Completely the issue.

3 - Adds to the character really.

4 - Not a problem.

5 - ....

 

For me, its all item 2.