'Free' skills with C:SM. Wheres ours?

[Defiant]

With the release of C:SM and Chapter tactics,it seems to me that as well as getting their marines cheaper,loyalists now get these additional benefit for no cost. I realise 40k is not a balanced game but giving a whole detachment 6+ FNP and all vehicles IWND for free just because you paint them a certain way. I.dont need to tell you guys what it costs a CSM squad to get their 5+ FNP. (MoS and Icon of Excess). I would much rather have the 6+ for nothing and spend the points elsewhere. And IWND for free? We paid a premium to have this added to the Defiler.

I dont know about you guys but I really enjoy playing 40k and I cant do that if I am going into.some battles with my hands tied when going against SM. Especially as meta-wise they are everywhere.

Join me next week when I whine about Imperial Fists free special rules. (Reroll '1's' with Bolt weapons to hit!) Fml.

[daboarder]

yeah, its a little depressing, of course there is no discussing it with non CSM players, because the response is almost always "well YOU get the heldrake" a unit that is quickly going from extreme to just above par for the course given the advent of black knights, tau suits, waveserpents and now centurions.

[Iron_Within]

To be honest since the release of Codex:Chaos Space Marines I've been tempted to write a letter of complaint of it's poor quality. I'm not a tournament player, I'm basically their target market of a beer a pretzels player; and if I have the choice of feeling bad about fielding Baledrakes (because it spoils the enjoyment of the game) or getting hammered and have my Chaos forces losing a forgone conclusion I feel this leaves the game stale. As a narrative player as well (as I would consider myself) the Chaos forces in our ongoing campaign the whipping boy not the great evil (unless we take Baledrakes etc. etc. which I refer to them spoiling the enjoyment of the game).

 

I'm going to avoid venting my annoyance here (before this thread gets more toxic than it will be). If anyone could give me some pointers/ where the hell to send a complaint letter (I've worked in customer services, and so know that it can be futile dealing with them).

[Sception]

They were afraid we might be good, so we have to pay separate for our army special rules.

[Excessus]

Heeey, we have Champion of Chaos armywide! It's for free as well! ;)

 

 

Watch me use my Brand-lord and kill off a few sergeants, and promptly turn into a spawn/DP (or get +1BS or something like that)...

[Sception]

How silly of me to forget.

[Excessus]

But we can limit it to "Free skills that actually help your army!" :P

[Defiant]

Yeah thats my fault...free HELPFULL skills haha

I am giving consideration to just running a SM army painted my Black Legion colours.

It would be easy using 'counts as' models. But I chose CSM for the fluff and it feels like it has bitten me in my warp-tainted butt!

[minigun762]

They get Chapter Tactics but we get Marks.

Yes, we have to pay for them but they are stronger in most cases.

[Volchek]

 

They get Chapter Tactics but we get Marks.

Yes, we have to pay for them but they are stronger in most cases.

 

Agreed. However, when taking everything in the C:CSM and C:SM chaos players are not even close to being on equal footing with SM players.

 

On a unit-to-unit or character-to-character basis, our codex is junk compared to C:SM.

 

On Saturday a buddy of mine who plays Death Guard sat down with both books and did a points/benefit analysis on what was available in each FOC slot. There simply was no comparison. Not even close. Even with the Heldrake, it just doesn't hold up like it did thanks to the Stormraven and the new Hunter Anti-Air missile.

 

In a phrase: CSM players got SCREWED.

 

And this sucks because I have a fully painted 3000+ CSM army that...has sat idle since shortly after the DA codex came out. It will continue to sit in the carrying cases unused. I have 30+ Noise Marines and about 15 FW Autocannon Havoc conversions that will sit unused. Waste of money on my part.

[the jeske]

the problem with our marks is that they are passive or melee upgrades , which would be awesome if melee resilience  was dominating the enviroment. The sm ones have more utility . str10 lascannons[9+tank hunter] on your centurions and re-rolling them 1s . scouting which removes the range limitation from many weapon [MM , grav guns etc].

[minigun762]

I'm not arguing that C: SM isn't a more thought out codex, and I see a great deal of value in Chaos Undivided legions using it as a count as option.

[Volchek]

I'm not arguing that C: SM isn't a more thought out codex, and I see a great deal of value in Chaos Undivided legions using it as a count as option.

But....

We should not need to do "count as" using the new SM codex. The CSM codex should be fully capable of doing exactly what the SM codex does: Allow and promote legion alignment via a "chapter tactics" mechanism.

[Excessus]

I'm not arguing that C: SM isn't a more thought out codex, and I see a great deal of value in Chaos Undivided legions using it as a count as option.

But....

We should not need to do "count as" using the new SM codex. The CSM codex should be fully capable of doing exactly what the SM codex does: Allow and promote legion alignment via a "chapter tactics" mechanism.

We know, and it has been stated countless times ever since the 4th ed gavdex was released...

[minigun762]

There is what "should be" and what "is".

I don't want to hold my breath for the one, so I embrace the other.

[Dam13n]

the problem with our marks is that they are passive or melee upgrades , which would be awesome if melee resilience  was dominating the enviroment. The sm ones have more utility . str10 lascannons[9+tank hunter] on your centurions and re-rolling them 1s . scouting which removes the range limitation from many weapon [MM , grav guns etc].

 

That's not how Tank Hunters works in 6th edition - it's re-roll failed penetration rolls (including glancing hits if you want), not +1 to armour penetration like it was in 5th.

 

Still a unit of Centurions with TL Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Split Fire and Tank Hunters is pretty brutal against mech heavy lists.

[the jeske]

realy ? that is what I get for playing an army without any tank hunters. re-rolls are actuly more brutal as far as str9 weapon goes.

[Dam13n]

I know, I don't get to use it often either.  The new rules for Tank Hunters did spawn a healthy debate about Sicarius in the Tactica forum when 6th edition rolled out.

 

It is one of the rules I would love to have for my Iron Warriors, as it fits them rather well.

 

I am actually debating re-writing my Iron Warrior list using Imperial Fists as counts-as (Heresy I know)  Though I really wish I could mix "Siege Masters" with "The Flesh is Weak" to fit my vision of my Iron Warriors.  6+ FNP (2' Bionics) on everybody and Tank Hunters on Havoks/Obliterators would be awesome, even if it meant I couldn't take cult troops or even marks of chaos.  (I don't mean for competitive play btw.  Just friendly (and fluffy) games with my mates at our local Gaming Club.)

 

Those traits really have opened a new wound in me as a Chaos Player, even though I relish the prospect of using some Codex: Marine allies for my Space Wolves now (even if none of my mates will be as thrilled as me that my Wolves may get even more unpleasant to face.)

[Vesper]

 

However, when taking everything in the C:CSM and C:SM chaos players are not even close to being on equal footing with SM players.

People should really understand that 40k isn't a balanced game. It's not even GW's goal. The game is designed to be that way.

[Iron_Within]

I know, I don't get to use it often either.  The new rules for Tank Hunters did spawn a healthy debate about Sicarius in the Tactica forum when 6th edition rolled out.

 

It is one of the rules I would love to have for my Iron Warriors, as it fits them rather well.

 

I am actually debating re-writing my Iron Warrior list using Imperial Fists as counts-as (Heresy I know)  Though I really wish I could mix "Siege Masters" with "The Flesh is Weak" to fit my vision of my Iron Warriors.  6+ FNP (2' Bionics) on everybody and Tank Hunters on Havoks/Obliterators would be awesome, even if it meant I couldn't take cult troops or even marks of chaos.  (I don't mean for competitive play btw.  Just friendly (and fluffy) games with my mates at our local Gaming Club.)

 

Those traits really have opened a new wound in me as a Chaos Player, even though I relish the prospect of using some Codex: Marine allies for my Space Wolves now (even if none of my mates will be as thrilled as me that my Wolves may get even more unpleasant to face.)

I'm going to look at the Horus Heresy Book 2 before making any decisions about how I will be playing Iron Warriors.

[Sanctimonius]

When does book 2 come out? It has Night Lords too, right?

[Dravenguild]

I agree that we have egregriously wronged with the way 6th has been shaping up, everyone else has got our perks for next to nothing except for the Heldrake which I think everyone would agree to tone down or do away with in exchange for a more internally and externally balanced codex full of the flavor we have been wanting for 2 editions.

 

How do we get in touch of someone in a position? Gav's no longer in the team, Jervis has never answered my polite and concise snail mail, Phil deleted his facebook.

 

The only thing I can think of otherwise is having A-D-B sympathize with us, but considering there isn't any crossover between the library and the design team I have a feeling we are up **** creek without a paddle.

 

It honestly makes me wonder why no one in the design team appreciates chaos space marines, Daemons got a huge boost in flavor, options and power but here we are with a revised 4th edition codex in 6th edition. It feels archaic and at end's with itself, the only army book that punishes your ability to synergize your army.

 

It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I often wonder why this discussion never comes up at gamesday when there are literally hundreds of people there to ask the design team.

[nurglez]

I know, I don't get to use it often either.  The new rules for Tank Hunters did spawn a healthy debate about Sicarius in the Tactica forum when 6th edition rolled out.

 

It is one of the rules I would love to have for my Iron Warriors, as it fits them rather well.

 

I am actually debating re-writing my Iron Warrior list using Imperial Fists as counts-as (Heresy I know)  Though I really wish I could mix "Siege Masters" with "The Flesh is Weak" to fit my vision of my Iron Warriors.  6+ FNP (2' Bionics) on everybody and Tank Hunters on Havoks/Obliterators would be awesome, even if it meant I couldn't take cult troops or even marks of chaos.  (I don't mean for competitive play btw.  Just friendly (and fluffy) games with my mates at our local Gaming Club.)

 

Those traits really have opened a new wound in me as a Chaos Player, even though I relish the prospect of using some Codex: Marine allies for my Space Wolves now (even if none of my mates will be as thrilled as me that my Wolves may get even more unpleasant to face.)

 

Er, you could do this with the in built allies system. As long as you painted them slightly different :D

 

I too have had a skim of the Codex and considered using the Iron Hands traits for my iron warriors, (as I consider it less powerful then a few of the other traits, so less likely to be accused of powergaming :D ).

 

I mean, I can understand our lords not getting eternal warrior, which has always been a bum deal to me. Now you can buy it for a 4 wound chapter master?

 

I hated it when the space wolf codex did chaos better, and now I'm starting to look at the marine codex... le sigh.

 

I've got a 1650 point tournament coming up, and I'm finding it really difficult to make a chaos force I'm happy using (without resorting to only cultists as troops or massed heldrakes). I'm actually considering my Draigowing for a laugh, and this is quite disapointing. But enough doom and gloom! supplements are on the way, so there is some hope at least...

[Nehekhare]

People should really understand that 40k isn't a balanced game.

it isn't even a game anymore when the hobby is about "buying citadel miniatures from GW", the lead designer writes that people should just roll 4+ instead of following his rules, fielding armies against one another is no longer considered a competitive endeavour and those people content with 40k state it's because they "like removing miniatures from the table".

[Sception]

I for one DON'T get why loyalists have easier access to eternal warrior. We're the ones with ageless champions kept alive for eternity by the dark gods to slay and suffer for their amusement.