We should make our own C:CSM Legion Tactics

[SRSFACE]

GW said somewhere along the lines making special rules for all the 9 original traiter legions would be too long and complicated for any one codex but they seemed to do a pretty good job capturing the feel of the 6 Loyalist chapters detailed in Codex: Space Marines.

 

I vote we make some sort of Bolter and Chainsword rules for each Legion and possibly a 10th set for legions that cropped up with Space Marine chapters that fell to chaos post-heresy. But definitely for the original 9.

 

Keeping in line with Codex: Space Marines chapter tactics, your submissions should entail 2 rules, or if you want to do something like the Ultramarines, make a set of 3 once-a-game abilities where one is geared toward troops, another toward fast attack and another toward heavy support. Use your imagination, basically. A good place to start is within the fluff so read up on the WH40k wikis floating on on the interwebs. For the 4 legions already discussed in the Horus Heresy Forgeworld book, maybe utilize the Legion rules as an idea of where to start. The world is your oyster.

 

To vote on someone else's rules, simply utilize the Like Post button. Obviously posting input is going to happen but you should be clicking Like Post on anything you really agree with.

 

As a review, here's the gist of what the 6 loyalist chapters all do so you can use them as a baseline for ability power for any of the traitor legion tactics:

 

ULTRAMARINES: They can use each of these abilities once a game. TACTICAL: The entire army rerolls 1s while shooting while letting Tactical squads reroll every miss in shooting. ASSAULT: All units reroll charge distance, and bikes/jump pack units gain fleet instead. DEVASTATOR: Infantry (or maybe it was just Devastators, sorry I don't have the book on me double check) reroll snap fires until end of turn, and Devastator squads gain Relentless unless they disembark from a vehicle.

 

WHITE SCARS:

1) Bikers essentially gain Skilled Rider but without actually having it (so if they have any skilled rider biker units, it'd stack) and they Hammer of Wrath at strength 5.

2) The entire army gains Hit and Run unless in terminator or centurion armor.

 

IMPERIAL FISTS:

1) Reroll 1s on all boltguns of every type, unless using specialized ammo.

2) Devastators (and Devastator Centurions, I think) gain Tank Hunter and add +1 to armor penetration rolls against buildings.

 

BLACK TEMPLAR:

1) Characters much issue and accept all challenges. In a challenge, characters reroll all failed to-hit rolls and gain rending.

2) All units gain Crusader and Adamantium Will special rules.

 

IRON HANDS:

1) All units gain +6 Feel No Pain and characters and vehicles gain It Will Not Die.

2) +1 to techmarine and Master of the Forge repair rolls.

 

SALAMANDERS:

1) Reroll wounds and armor penetration rolls with Flamer weapons.

2) Characters declare one of their weapons as Master-Crafted.

 

RAVEN GUARD:

1) Jump Pack units can use their jump pack in both movement and assault phase, and reroll failed Hammer of Wrath hits from jump pack units.

2) Except for bulky and very bulky units, all infantry gain Stealth and Scouts on the first turn of the game.

 

So, I'll reserve this first post for what we come up with as our "officially unnofficial Bolter and Chainsword Chaos Legion tactics"

 

BLACK LEGION:

 

EMPEROR'S CHILDREN:

 

IRON WARRIORS:

 

NIGHT LORDS:

 

WORLD EATERS:

 

DEATH GUARD:

 

THOUSAND SONS:

 

WORD BEARERS:

 

ALPHA LEGION:

[Iron_Within]

I'll do Iron Warriors. I've got a couple of idea's. I personally like the one use ones but in order to stay in keeping with the thread I'll make two posts so they can be voted on appropriately. The first is the permanent abilities. They represent their ability in taking down vehicles, and fortifications as well as their abilities with Ordinance and heavy attacks.

 

Note: These abilities do not apply to 'cult' (Berzerkers, Rubrics, Noise Marines, Plague Marines) units and would only apply when Iron Warriors are fielded on their own, Obliterators, Maulerfiends etc. are still Iron Warriors (as long as they are painted as such)

 

Iron Warriors: Gain 'Tank Hunters' USR, Blast Weapons may re-roll scatter dice. Chosen gain the Scout, USR EDITl: Chosen Scout USR removed after discussion - yep I agree SRSFACE

[Sangneur]

I wrote these earlier and stumbled on this thread just now.  They aren't gospel, and if you have any insight/critique please comment:

 

Black Legion: All models that may take 'Veterans of the Long War' may do so at no additional cost

Night Lords: All models have the 'Stealth', 'Night Vision', 'Fear' special rules

Word Bearers: All models have the 'Fearless' Special rule

Alpha Legion: All models have the 'Scouts' special rule.  (I want to do infiltrate, but is that too much?)

Iron Warriors: All models have the 'Siege Masters' ability as those of the Imperial Fists, and additionally have the rules both Move through Cover (Ruins), and Stealth: (Ruins)

Death Guard: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Nurgle at no additional cost

World Eaters: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Khorne at no additional cost

Emperor's children: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Slaanesh at no additional cost

Thousand Sons: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Tzeentch at no additional cost

[SRSFACE]

I wanted to leave that first post as THE POST so, sorry if it's bad form to be the first reply to your own topic, but hey. Sorry. At least I'm letting you all know why I'm doing it this way. :)

 

I have a few ideas, as I've been thinking about this for awhile. I think the most straightforward would be to do something with Night Lords. They are ALL ABOUT the fear, so I think giving them something like "Enemies take Fear tests at -1 leadership" would be pretty fitting, and would make daemonic units more appealing to them. Maybe also allowing them to force fear checks on units that are immune to fear from rules other than Fearless? I don't know how balanced that be, it's just spitballing here.

 

They are all about the Raptors and Warp Talons fluff-wise, so I'd even be okay with their other trait being a straight theft of the Jump Pack rules from Raven Guard, allowing them to utilize it in both movement and assault and rerolling failed to wound rolls with Hammer of Wrath.

 

ALSO, I thought about Thousand Sons. I've had Ahriman turn into a Chaos Spawn in several games, which fluff-wise makes no sense at all because the Rubric of Ahriman made all Thousand Sons immune to warp mutations. That was kind of a big deal and the fact it's not currently represented rules-wise really bothers me. So, I thought something that would be pretty cool for them is "Reroll once any Unworthy Offering, Spawnhood or Dark Apotheosis results from the Chaos Boon table." Makes the boon table a little more stable, and while it saves you from Spawnhood, it also stops you from getting Dark Apotheosis. Without some extreme luck, anyway. It also makes Gift of Mutation off the Tzeentch table more appealing.

 

I think something else that'd be cool for them is something like "Mark of Tzeentch is a free upgrade for any non HQ unit that can take it that is not a daemonic unit or in Terminator armor." Means you can't skim the big point values off units that really benefit from bolstering an inherent invulnerable save, but it gives you that 6+ invuln save on regular CSM troops, cultists, and Chosen allowing an HQ to join one of those types of squads without dumping a bunch of stupid points into a not-very-impressive purchase. I guess this would be kind of weak, but, it's just a thought. Other idea is simply all Bolter fire has Soul Blaze, meaning you wouldn't need to take any icons of flame ever, and Soul Blaze is pretty gimp anyway. I guess also make it so all characters have it with their melee weapons while in a challenge, because why not.

[SRSFACE]

I'll do Iron Warriors. I've got a couple of idea's. I personally like the one use ones but in order to stay in keeping with the thread I'll make two posts so they can be voted on appropriately. The first is the permanent abilities. They represent their ability in taking down vehicles, and fortifications as well as their abilities with Ordinance and heavy attacks.

 

Note: These abilities do not apply to 'cult' (Berzerkers, Rubrics, Noise Marines, Plague Marines) units and would only apply when Iron Warriors are fielded on their own, Obliterators, Maulerfiends etc. are still Iron Warriors (as long as they are painted as such)

 

Iron Warriors: Gain 'Tank Hunters' USR, Blast Weapons may re-roll scatter dice. Chosen gain the Scout, USR

I like that. That fits. Not sure about the Chosen gaining scout, but definitely that first one. It's definitely in line with the Siege army mentality and is on par with what Imperial Fists get and they were very similar legions in terms of tactics employed.

 

 

 

Death Guard: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Nurgle at no additional cost

World Eaters: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Khorne at no additional cost

Emperor's children: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Slaanesh at no additional cost

Thousand Sons: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Tzeentch at no additional cost

I thought about that, but it'd just be too powerful I think. Gaining mark of nurgle for free on everything would be silly strong, definitely a lot stronger than the other ones. Maybe if if was for things that can be taken as a Troop only, maybe. Gaining Mark of Tzeentch for free would also be really, really strong if you just stacked terminators and oblits and such.

 

I think something that'd be a little more balanced for Death Guard would be something like "All weapons that wound on a flat dice roll wound at 1 less effectiveness. Poison (4+) behaves as though it were Poison (5+), fleshbane auto-wounds on a 3+ instead of 2+, etc." Would fit with the whole aesthetic of resisting disease, and would also sync well with everything having mark of Nurgle because right now poison weapons basically negate the benefit completely.

 

I believe Mortarion has a souped up version of that in the 30k rulebook, so, I like it at least.

[Iron_Within]

So, for second Iron Warriors Chapter Tactics, I would go for some more tactical, one use abilities that represents how they actually fight. 

 

IRON WARRIORS

Each turn, the Iron Warriors may choose one of the following Tactics. Each Tactic may only be used once per game.

Into the Breach

All models in the army gain the 'Furious Charge' and 'Fleet', Chosen and Terminators gain 'Furious Charge', 'Rage', and 'Fleet' USR

Symphony of Destruction

All models may reroll fails to hit of '1' for Shooting. Heavy and Ordinance Weapons gain the 'Twin-linked' and 'Tank Hunters' USR.

Storm of Fire

All models gain the 'Fleet' USR. Additionally, All weapons using a Blast template gain the 'Barrage' USR.

 

Each tactic represents a different point in the battle for Iron Warriors and encourage a certain kind of army building. Storm of Fire is the point in the battle when the Iron Warriors go 'Over the top' out the trenches and storm no mans land. The Barrage while having some odd ones (e.g. Vindicators), I like the idea of the Iron Warriors rigging every weapon to fire in a coordinated attack to keep the enemies heads down while troops move into position. Symphony of Destruction represents that point in the battle when the Iron Warriors launch their storm of fire, a coordinated attack to prise a weakpoint, a breach. And lastly 'into the breach' is exactly that, the elites leading the charge (or even already in position, remember that Chosen often infiltrate according to fluff), storm the breach.

[Iron_Within]

 

I'll do Iron Warriors. I've got a couple of idea's. I personally like the one use ones but in order to stay in keeping with the thread I'll make two posts so they can be voted on appropriately. The first is the permanent abilities. They represent their ability in taking down vehicles, and fortifications as well as their abilities with Ordinance and heavy attacks.

 

Note: These abilities do not apply to 'cult' (Berzerkers, Rubrics, Noise Marines, Plague Marines) units and would only apply when Iron Warriors are fielded on their own, Obliterators, Maulerfiends etc. are still Iron Warriors (as long as they are painted as such)

 

Iron Warriors: Gain 'Tank Hunters' USR, Blast Weapons may re-roll scatter dice. Chosen gain the Scout, USR

I like that. That fits. Not sure about the Chosen gaining scout, but definitely that first one. It's definitely in line with the Siege army mentality and is on par with what Imperial Fists get and they were very similar legions in terms of tactics employed.

 

For my permanent  ability idea, I didn't want it exactly the same as IF as they are different (Dorn's lackies preferring storms of bolter drill etc. whereas the Iron Warriors prefer firepatterns more akin to a 'symphony' which some in the novels equated to an orchestra.

 

One big thing in the Iron Warriors combat doctrine is that Chosen were the ones that 'opened a breach' by infiltrating onto it. I don't think it's appropriate to give them infiltrate as I think that would take away from other Legions (Alpha Legion, Night Lords etc.) but Scout represents them ranging ahead to prise open the breach.

[SRSFACE]

Well, yeah, it's not the same. It's on par. :) Like I said, I like it.

 

I know they do the whole hit and breach thing, but I feel like there's enough units with ways to represent a breaching squad within the current C:CSM codex, like simply taking Khorne Berzerkers which I know they have a penchant for doing now that they are way into Chaos worship.

 

How about taking a page from the Iron Hands and improving the repair ability of a Warpsmith by +1? I feel like a true Iron Warriors list would have one of those as their HQ, so, it'd fit.

[Iron_Within]

 

I wrote these earlier and stumbled on this thread just now.  They aren't gospel, and if you have any insight/critique please comment:

 

Black Legion: All models that may take 'Veterans of the Long War' may do so at no additional cost

Night Lords: All models have the 'Stealth', 'Night Vision', 'Fear' special rules

Word Bearers: All models have the 'Fearless' Special rule

Alpha Legion: All models have the 'Scouts' special rule.  (I want to do infiltrate, but is that too much?)

Iron Warriors: All models have the 'Siege Masters' ability as those of the Imperial Fists, and additionally have the rules both Move through Cover (Ruins), and Stealth: (Ruins)

Death Guard: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Nurgle at no additional cost

World Eaters: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Khorne at no additional cost

Emperor's children: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Slaanesh at no additional cost

Thousand Sons: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Tzeentch at no additional cost

 

While on a good few of them are on the right track I think you are making them overpowered as well as taking away from other areas. Word Bearers having Fearless completely defeats the point of the Icon of Vengeance and while you may not like the Icons they are here to stay and you cannot create abilities to 'patch over' existing problems. I don't think that is your intent, 

[SRSFACE]

Another issue with making Word Bearers straight Fearless is it'd defeat the purpose of the default abilities of a Dark Apostle which is kind of the de-facto Word Bearers HQ unit from a fluff standpoint. If everyone is fearless, using his Ld10 from being nearby is kind of a moot point.

[daboarder]

Deathguard:

 

All models MUST purchase MoN (cultists exempt?)

 

All non-vehicle in the army gain FNP (5+) but also have -1I.

 

Job Done!

[Iron_Within]

My Next one is the Night Lords as I've just had some inspiration. All the ones I'm posting are inspired by fluff and while I'm aware of balance etc. these are characterful choices.

 

Like the Iron Warriors, Legionary Tactics do not apply to cult units (they've been lost and enslaved to their pantheon)

 

NIGHT LORDS

The Night Lords have the 'Fear', 'Night Vision' USR and 'Death Incarnate' Special Rule.

Death Incarnate: All enemy units within 12" of a Night Lords unit, suffer an additional -1 to all Leadership test.

[Iron_Within]

Ok so now for a bit of Inspiration from the Word Bearers, I've always viewed them as an unholy phalanx marching towards the enemy singing like horrific dark choirs. Each unit functions alongside another working together towards a greater union of the Dark Gods.

None of the four cult units may benefit from the Word Bearers Special rule, they are lost to one god to remember their genetic heritage. Also, Cultists do not benefit from the Word Bearers Special rule, they are worthless scum.

WORD BEARERS
All Word Bearers gain the 'Crusader' USR and the 'Unholy Choir' special rule.
Unholy Choir:
When a unit with the 'Unholy Choir' Special rule is within 6" of another unit with the Unholy Choir Special rule numbering at least 5 models or a Dark Apostle they both gain the Stubborn USR. If they are within 6" range of a second unit or Dark Apostle they gain the Preferred Enemy (Everything!) USR.
Note: Vehicles do receive the Word Bearer Special Rule, so a unit next to it's Rhino Dedicated Transport and a Dark Apostle would gain preferred enemy.

[the jeske]

Two questions. this is suppose to be focused on fluff or focused on game play , because we would end up with drasticly distinct rules then ? and the second one is , we do this with 6th DT design philosophy in mind or are we more focused on creating perfect game play option[which has nothing to do with power by the way].

[Iron_Within]

What would you consider to be the 6th ed design team philosophy? I'm assuming you mean the 'Forging a narrative' aspect of the game?

 

I can only speak for what I've posted up really and what I will be posting up. My intent when suggesting these Legionary Tactics is to create a vibrant characterful, fluffy alternative to the standard Chaos Space Marine Gameplay that is keeping with the Legion or Warband I'm writing about. It's not to take away or change existing rules but rather to add to them and incorporate them into the Codex we have. I don't want to have these tactics shoe horned into the standard tournament army list, that's not what I'm getting at.

 

While this will have an effect on competitive tournament based gameplay it's not my focus. My focus is giving voice to the Chaos Space Marines, those that have not completely become a slave to one god like the cults but rather become a traitor, who has maintained his heritage. This is why I don't think any Legionary tactic should affect cult troops for the 5 Legions (6 including Huron's Red Corsairs which probably should have a tactic IMO). They are not the Traitors of 10,000 years of hate driving them, they are driven by their god. The Iron Warrior, the Alpha Legionnaire, The Word Bearer, the Black Legionnaire, the Corsair, they all have very different goals to the Cult's, with their own style of gameplay which is what I'm trying to bring out. Each Legion has tactics they have perfected over 10,000 years and this is what I want to see on the tabletop. Not a rebalancing of the Codex or 'fixing' what I perceive to be broken.

 

So for example from the ones I've posted (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers). Word Bearers gain power in groups, they also gain more from their Dark Apostles, becoming harder to break and better at shooting and fighting. They can march up the board without running, favouring Blob squads. The Night Lords on the other hand favour fast moving units, and will break enemy units in melee easily, even units with ATSKNF will break against them, with clever maneuvering. With the Iron Warriors, everything relies on tactics and army choices. They strongly favour going for ML havocs, Oblits and even placing ML on usual units. In the second option (my preferred) this is even more pronounced. You could place ML on your units and have obliterators, and fire a barrage first leaving them nowhere to hide, but then that's it. Each would play very differently on the table but necessarily more powerful than the other

[SRSFACE]

Two questions. this is suppose to be focused on fluff or focused on game play , because we would end up with drasticly distinct rules then ? and the second one is , we do this with 6th DT design philosophy in mind or are we more focused on creating perfect game play option[which has nothing to do with power by the way].

Should be focused on how you feel the fluff should play within the gameplay without being gamebreaking similar to the actual chapter tactics in the C:SM book?

 

There is no simple answer.

[the jeske]

What would you consider to be the 6th ed design team philosophy? I'm

assuming you mean the 'Forging a narrative' aspect of the game?

Well for example take a look at the addon dex in 6th. This more or less gives a lot of ideas how DT builds the armies. They don't build them to be playable nor for people to jump over nor to rise sells of models [specialy if the models are old].They aren't forging any narratives with 4 helldrake slot , troop crisis or a better wright type units. In fact offten[the case of the BL dex] the units they seem to promote in rules[chosen and termis] are made worse , so that fewer people may take them .

 

 

 

 

So if we were to got this way . NL could look like this "Fear on all units . Talons and raptors don't scater as long as they drop within 6" of another talon/raptor unit.'

 

 

good design , that may make people want to play less used options/armies looks like this.

NL "-1Ld to units within 6" , -1Ld to all enemy unit durning night fight . thse are cumulative." 

Units of talons or raptors can be made scoring , if the lord has a jump pack .

 

innovative desing looks like this .

NL raptor  armies can pick the turn on which night fight is turned on. Raptor units replace csm as troops , if the lord also has a jump pack[raptor army]. A basic talon unit costs -5pts less for every 10 raptor taken . This is cumulative .

 

 

last step would be tired armies;

for example .

tier 1 1ksons

2 units of 1ksons and 1 sorc MoT . all sorc and asp sorc can re-roll failed psychic tests .

tier 2

tier1+ no units without MoT . all vehicles can buy MoT 30pts . this gives the vehicle a lvl 1 psychic mastery and the primaris tzeench psychic power . It gives units without inv +5 inv[and no it does not give a bale drake +4inv]

tier 3

tier1+2.2x Sorc of tzeench and all non HQ units of tzeench 9-18-27-36 model sized. additional 1ksons cost 5 pts less per model .

tier 4

tier1-3.2 or more 20 man cultists units with MoT . Cultists leaders are upgraded to thrall sorc at no additional point cost. psyker lvl 1 , can only take primaris tzeench power .

[daveNYC]

 

1) Characters much issue and accept all challenges. In a challenge, characters reroll all failed to-hit rolls and gain rending.

 

I did not realize (haven't gotten the codex yet) that the BT requirement to issue and accept challenges came with skills that can help them WIN THAT CHALLENGE!

 

My god as if we needed more of a sign that the CSM codex is a hack.  /rant

 

Back on topic:

 

Word Bearers: Fearless for all, 2 troop choices can be from the Daemon troop entries. (this is fluffy, but GW ain't never gonna let it happen)

 

Thousand Sons: If entire army has MoT, characters with MoT can purchase Psyker MLs for x points (max 3).  Lore of Tzeentch is either completely rewritten or burned.

[Excessus]

This sounds like fun.

Alpha Legion

First of all, battle brothers with Imperial Guard. After that, neither infiltrate nor scout is really needed as an army wide rule, but a mechanic to influence the Seize Initiative roll would be fluffy, since we do know the enemy plans after all...

An Effrit special character would be nice as well, IC with a sniper bolter (á lá Eldar) and shrouded...he could have the Master of Deception warlord trait...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Awww, Ex, you beat me to the punch.

 

 

I was thinking the following for the Alpha Legion:

 

Coordinated Assault: Units in an Alpha Legion detachment that are Outflanking may choose which board edge to arrive from.  Additionally, units in an Alpha Legion detachment that are Deep Striking roll one less die than normal when scattering.

 

Forward Positions: Infantry units in an Alpha Legion detachment that do not have the Bulky or Very Bulky rules gain Scout.  The detachment's Warlord automatically has the Master of Deception Warlord Trait.

 

 

Edit: A little reasoning here.  In the IA, the Legion's modus operandi was claimed to be striking from every direction at once, so I crafted these in a moment to try to provide that requirement.  I also considered some forms of Reserve roll manipulation, but I figured that's already available in the comms relay. 

[oreaper84]

These are based off of legions i know, meld of fluff and use (i hope) lemme know what cha think

 

EMPEROR'S CHILDREN: "Perfection above all else" For 1 turn the entire army may chosse from the following USR perferred enemy, relentless, tank hunter / "Synphony of sensation" all EC models benifit from the acute sences and night vision USR

[Iron_Within]

Guys it's a bit hard to like a post for voting if you're posting about multiple legions all at once.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Thousand sons: "Spawndom" on the mutation table is treated as "Unworthy offering", All model's with the MOT can use invun saves against perils of the warp, and get an extra mastery level and warp charge, enemy pyskers suffer a -1 penalty to their leadership when using powers within 24" of a MOT/thousand son unit.

[oreaper84]

_{THOUSAND SONS: "All has been fortold" for 1 turn all units gain the perferred enemy USR / "Power of the aether" Characters in a TS army may count any power weapon as a force weapon of the same type, if this option is chosen the character counts as being a psyker ml1 that do not generate a psykic power (unless the are already a psyker in which normal rules apply)}

[oreaper84]

WORD BEARERS: "Heed thy Word" all units gain the stubborn USR / "chosen by the Gods" 1 unit of Possesed may count as scoring