We should make our own C:CSM Legion Tactics

[oreaper84]

ALPHA LEGION: "We strike from the shadows" all units gain stealth 1st turn / "The hydra has many heads" any unit may choose to outflank if it is eligible to be placed in reserves

 

[Sangneur]

 

 

I wrote these earlier and stumbled on this thread just now.  They aren't gospel, and if you have any insight/critique please comment:

 

Black Legion: All models that may take 'Veterans of the Long War' may do so at no additional cost

Night Lords: All models have the 'Stealth', 'Night Vision', 'Fear' special rules

Word Bearers: All models have the 'Fearless' Special rule

Alpha Legion: All models have the 'Scouts' special rule.  (I want to do infiltrate, but is that too much?)

Iron Warriors: All models have the 'Siege Masters' ability as those of the Imperial Fists, and additionally have the rules both Move through Cover (Ruins), and Stealth: (Ruins)

Death Guard: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Nurgle at no additional cost

World Eaters: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Khorne at no additional cost

Emperor's children: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Slaanesh at no additional cost

Thousand Sons: All models that may do so can choose to have the mark of Tzeentch at no additional cost

 

While on a good few of them are on the right track I think you are making them overpowered as well as taking away from other areas. Word Bearers having Fearless completely defeats the point of the Icon of Vengeance and while you may not like the Icons they are here to stay and you cannot create abilities to 'patch over' existing problems. I don't think that is your intent, 

 

Thank you.  I don't know, I feel some of them are overpowered, but I don't think there are any that are better than the loyalist versions by far.  I don't use the Icon of Vengeance, and I wouldn't use the Word bearers ability regardless. :P  The thing is, yes it kind of steps on the apostles toes, but so does the chaos lord having fearless.

 

I think something else that'd be cool for them is something like "Mark of Tzeentch is a free upgrade for any non HQ unit that can take it that is not a daemonic unit or in Terminator armor.....

 

That's sort of a paradox, and that pricing scheme has tappered off in more recent books.  The existing inv. save was payed for already on the daemons or terminators, the cost of the mark should not be increase.  How is the 17% chance to save on them more valuable inherently than elsewhere?  I found most of the 'bad upgrades' as deemed by the internet fall under the category of those who've payed a price for something, and then pay more for upgrades because they have another upgrade.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I had a go at this on my own blog the other day:

 

Quote

Legacy of the Legions

 

Legacy of the World Eaters: 4+ Deny the Witch, Fleet (Warlord and unit must have Mark/Daemon of Khorne)

Legacy of the Thousand Sons: Brotherhood of Psykers (generate 1 random Tzeentch power for each squad for use at Mastery Level 1), Power Weapons become Force Weapons (Warlord must have Mark/Daemon of Tzeentch),

Legacy of the Death Guard: 6+ Feel No Pain, Shrouded (Warlord and unit must have Mark/Daemon of Nurgle)

Legacy of the Emperor’s Children: Opponents must re-roll successful Armour and Invulnerable Saves in Assaults (Warlord and unit must have Mark/Daemon of Slaanesh)

Legacy of the Night Lords: Night Vision, Fear, Scouts

Legacy of the Black Legion: Fearless, army gets +1 or -1 to own Reserves rolls and can force opponent to re-roll any Reserves roll if Black Legion is primary detachment

Legacy of the Iron Warriors: Relentless, Tank Hunter, any Aspiring Champion, Champion, or HQ choice may take a servo-arm for 25 points. (Warlord must not have a Mark/Daemon

of Chaos)

Legacy of the Alpha Legion: Infiltrate, Invisible (for the first turn only/and only unmarked basic CSM)

Legacy of the Word Bearers: Daemonic Possession (squad must have a Mark, and it must be the same Mark as any HQ choice in their detachment)

The player chooses a Legacy for a detachment in their army. Any Infantry squad in that detachment that has VotLW may benefit from the rules provided by the Legacy. An army from Codex Chaos Space Marines my ally with another detachment from Codex Chaos Space Marines provided it does not have the same Legacy. Detachments with a Legion Legacy must be recognizable as being different from an allied detachment either through paint scheme or modeling options, preferably by painting the models in the Legion colors of the Legacy chosen, or a known warband from that Legion. DIY warbands may choose any Legion Legacy, but the player should not be a flaming munchkin about it.

The exact rules themselves are less important than the way it works. The upgrades are only given to Infantry models that have taken VotLW, so that builds in the limits to which units can benefit, it makes VotLW mean something in a fluffy way, and it's tied to the Warlord and Marks in certain cases that make sense to me.

Thinking about it now, there should probably be something like Legacy of the Apostate to somehow represent more recently fallen chapters, but I don't know what that could be right now.

EDIT: And thinking more on in, maybe make the cult legions unable to take other opposing gods cult troops in their primary detachments, along the lines of the Hatred rules from the Daemons codex.

[Tenebris]

Ok. Let's begin.

 

Thousand Sons:

 

- The Rubic of Ahriman: The warp is strong on this battlefield and the sorcerers of the Thousand Sons can call upon its sinister power more easily. For the duration of a turn all the psykers present in your army can cast an additional psychic power for free. Each psyker must roll on the Tzeentch Discipline table and can cast the resulting spell at the cost of no warp charges, even if the psyker used his warp charge pool. All the modifiers like Spell Familiar and similar apply. You must use the power that resulted from your roll on the table and you cannot switch it for the primaris power.

 

- The Rubicae: Tzeentch blesses his warriors with an aura of darkness that shields them from enemy damage. For the duration of the player's turn all invulnerable saves get +1.

 

- Arcane Sorcery: Casting the spells the Thousand Sons sorcerers open a warp rift that allows them to move between dimensions and surprise the enemy. Choose one unit with a psyker character attached and remove it from the game, in the next turn this unit arrives in automatic from the reserves and has the Deep Strike rule. You can remove any unit, even those engaged in combat.

 

 

Ok this is the first one and the one for my favorite legion. I have used the Ultramarine template of three separate powers, or cooldowns. The first trait allows a Thousand Sons player to put out some fire out of his aspiring sorcerers. It can work well or it can work bad but it is indeed an incentive to field several Thousand Sons squads. 

 

The second cooldown is a defensive one. This benefits an army that has MoT on all units and can make them quite resilient in the right moment. It is not an overpowered ability for it is only a +1 but it can make some wonders if you have to footslog across the battlefield or you have just deep striked with your MoT terminators. 

 

The third power is my favorite one and I have seen it in action while playing Crusade of Fire. You remove an unit from the play for a single turn and you can deep strike it in the next. Imagine your Thousand Sons squads locked in melee, than why not use this power and return in the next turn to pour some dakka. 

 

 

All in all I think that the Thousand Sons should be the "smart" legion which has to time well its cooldowns. A good use of the first ability can offset the lack of fire power of the Thousand Sons, the second gives them a fighting chance when tons of AP 2/3 weapons bear upon them and the third is a gift to a skilled general. It is a smart Hit&Run balanced by the need to Deep Strike. All in all I presume that the whole is rather balanced. 

[Excessus]

As much as I would like the extra spells per round, I'd rather bring acolytes in some way.

 

X points, conscript stats, save -, only ccw as equipment, special rule: sacrifice an acolyte (max one per turn) to be able to cast up to one extra spell that turn.

[Tenebris]

Well I think that the trait is good as it is for it favors the player who brings the Thousand Sons unit to the table. Much like the Ultramarines trait which is in there to reward someone who plays a standard company structure with Tactical, Assault and Devastator squads, so I think that the legion traits should be incentives to play some specific army table entries, in this case the Thousand Sons. That is why I would love to see more things centered around the humble Aspiring Sorcerer or the HQ Sorcerer, they should be the focal point of a Thousand Sons army thus they should have some buffs here and there so that a player can actually rely on them.

 

The problem that I see with some of the above Legion Traits is that they force a player to take many different units while this should not be the case. I think that a Legion Trait should provide a buff to the Legion specific cult troops, a general army wide buff and a trick that one can use to play a more tactical game with an otherwise pretty linear army that it is focused in a single game type. All can be spiced than with a sort of general buff to the other units for that turn but this is not the main reason why a player chooses to use a trait. 

 

I also like the passive traits like the ones of the White Scars and the Iron Hands, but they are stale, Chaos should be varied, flexible and unpredictable so I think that the Ultramarine template is the one we should aspire to, that or to the once per game traits like the ones of the Tau. 

[Dammeron]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd prefer it if the mode of representing the legions was more idiosyncratic to Chaos rather than a simple hijacking of the Imperial system. This could be achieved very easily by making some key revisions to the army wide special rules and introducing more icons. The followingn are some suggestions I've been playing around with; no points costs as of yet, but they seem to function technically with no real problems:

 

 

1. Army   Wide Special Rules:

 

    Warp Assault: Even before the Heresy, units such as Terminators and Assault Squads

were deployed in remarkably different manner from their present-day equivalents: striking deep

into the heart of the enemy, their purpose was to tear out the heart
of the foe, demoralising and scattering all that remained. The
Traitor Legions and their allies have maintained this less precise
but more aggressive modus operandi during their ten thousand years of
exile, often utilising ancient and unreliable technology or occult
means to project spear-tip units through the Warp to cripple the
enemy before the fighting proper begins.

Units with this special rule may assault directly after deep

striking.

 

    Champion of Chaos:
 

As per C:CSM with the following addenda:
 

Ritual challenges are a way of life for those who aspire to positions

of authority within the ranks of the Chaos Space Marines. Unlike
their loyalist brethren, who may be promoted thanks to qualities such
as discipline or tactical elan, the Chaos Space Marines respect only
strength of arms, meaning that only the most skilled and brutal
aspirants ever survive.

When fighting in a challenge, models with this special rule benefit

from +1 WS and +1A. Furthermore, if they happen to win the challenge,
they inspire their followers to heights of beatific frenzy in the
name of Chaos. Any unit they accompany temporarily gains the Zealot
USR for the purposes of the next game turn.

 

 

    Marks of Chaos
 

As per Codex: CSM with the following addenda:
 

The Mark of Tzeentch:
 

Those marked by the Great  Conspirator often benefit from incredible good fortune or twists of chance as Tzeentch and his daemons warp reality around them to suit their proscribed purpose in the dark god's plans. Models with The Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single long-range “to hit” shot per turn or may force a re-roll of a single long range “to hit” shot that targets them per turn.

 

Any psyker with The Mark of Tzeentch additionally counts his Mastery Level as one higher for the purposes of spell selection.
    

 

Icons of Chaos:

 

As per C:CSM with the following additions and addenda (NOTE that all icons confer the standard +1 to
combat resolution):

The Icon of Flame: As per C:CSM but additionally, the icon surrounds those nearby with
coruscating flames, meaning that any seeking to assault the bearer or
his fellows must run the risk of falling prey to the occult inferno.
Any unit which successfully assaults the bearer's unit immediately
suffers D6 flamer hits, distributed as shooting, which must be
resolved before any combat takes place. These wounds count towards
combat resolution.

The Icon of Medrengard: Held aloft by those hailing from the

brutal Iron Warriors legion (or those schooled in their ways), the
Icon of Medrengard most typically takes the form of a twisted
configuration of razor wire and serrated metal shards, often woven
throughout the flesh of some unfortunate bound to the icon by foul
sorceries. Those who fight beneath the icon are often superlative
siege and trench warfare experts, able to pin point the weak points
in enemy armour with surgical precision. The bearer and any unit he
accompanies gain the Tank Hunters U.S.R
and additionally become Stubborn when
occupying fortifications.

 

The Icon of Night: The vile icons carried aloft by those tutored in the sadistic ways of

the Night Lords stand as testaments to the unspeakable cruelty and
unparalleled viciousness of this most heinous of the Progenitor
legions. Often comprising of the bearer's own victims, the icons
writhe and shriek in bloodied agony, suspended in a flayed raw
mockery of life by the perversions of similarly twisted sorcerers.
Any unit successfully charged by the bearer and any unit he
accompanies suffers -2 Ld for the purposes of any subsequent morale
or leadership tests.

The Icon of The Word: Carried into battle by the most

fanatical of zealots, the Icons of The Word originate with the Word
Bearer's legion, though are also evinced by converts and crusaders
from throughout the Eye of Terror. Consisting of braziers of burning
skulls, tattered parchments of human flesh inked in blood and
grotesque, daemonic effigies, the Icons of The Word serve as loci of
Chaos worship within material space, allowing daemonic entities to
pin point specific locations in reality and tear their way through.
Any unit with the daemon U.S.R
that deep strikes within 6 inches of at least one model in a unit
with this icon will not scatter.

 

The Icon of the Hydra: Those displaying the Icon of the

Hydra, if not members of the Alpha Legion themselves, are puppets or
subordinates of the legion; schooled in the arts of deception and
subterfuge, they fight using precise guerilla tactics, infiltrating
enemy ground, sabotaging weaponry, sewing misinformation etc. The
bearer of this icon and any unit he accompanies have the infiltrate
U.S.R. Chaos Terminators, Khorne
Berserkers, Noise Marines, Raptors and Warp Talons instead have the
scout U.S.R.

 

The Black Icon: Sometimes bearing the image of a
stylised Eye of Horus or Chaos Octed, but most often simply a thing
of unadorned black, the Black Icon is borne into battle by those
sworn to the Warmaster, Abaddon the Despoiler and his Black Legion.
Those who fight beneath the banner do so with an unrelenting
bitterness and hatred, not to mention a burning fear of failing their
lord and master. The bearer and any unit he accompanies gain the
crusader and hammer
of wrath U.S.Rs.

[40kChrista]

1) Characters much issue and accept all challenges. In a challenge, characters reroll all failed to-hit rolls and gain rending.

I did not realize (haven't gotten the codex yet) that the BT requirement to issue and accept challenges came with skills that can help them WIN THAT CHALLENGE!

Yup, I saw that too and went damn... mother f%^&*@#... how lame is that? I love Chaos but getting the early shaft two editions in a row is not cool.

[40kChrista]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd prefer it if the mode of representing the legions was more idiosyncratic to Chaos rather than a simple hijacking of the Imperial system. This could be achieved very easily by making some key revisions to the army wide special rules and introducing more icons. The followingn are some suggestions I've been playing around with; no points costs as of yet, but they seem to function technically with no real problems:

 

 

 

1. Army   Wide Special Rules:

 

 

    Warp Assault: Even before the Heresy, units such as Terminators and Assault Squads

were deployed in remarkably different manner from their present-day equivalents: striking deep

into the heart of the enemy, their purpose was to tear out the heart

of the foe, demoralising and scattering all that remained. The

Traitor Legions and their allies have maintained this less precise

but more aggressive modus operandi during their ten thousand years of

exile, often utilising ancient and unreliable technology or occult

means to project spear-tip units through the Warp to cripple the

enemy before the fighting proper begins.

 

Units with this special rule may assault directly after deep

striking.

 

 

 

    Champion of Chaos:

 

 

As per C:CSM with the following addenda:

 

 

Ritual challenges are a way of life for those who aspire to positions

of authority within the ranks of the Chaos Space Marines. Unlike

their loyalist brethren, who may be promoted thanks to qualities such

as discipline or tactical elan, the Chaos Space Marines respect only

strength of arms, meaning that only the most skilled and brutal

aspirants ever survive.

When fighting in a challenge, models with this special rule benefit

from +1 WS and +1A. Furthermore, if they happen to win the challenge,

they inspire their followers to heights of beatific frenzy in the

name of Chaos. Any unit they accompany temporarily gains the Zealot

USR for the purposes of the next game turn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

    Marks of Chaos

 

 

As per Codex: CSM with the following addenda:

 

 

The Mark of Tzeentch:

 

Those marked by the Great  Conspirator often benefit from incredible good fortune or twists of chance as Tzeentch and his daemons warp reality around them to suit their proscribed purpose in the dark god's plans. Models with The Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single long-range “to hit” shot per turn or may force a re-roll of a single long range “to hit” shot that targets them per turn.

 

Any psyker with The Mark of Tzeentch additionally counts his Mastery Level as one higher for the purposes of spell selection.

    

 

Icons of Chaos:

 

As per C:CSM with the following additions and addenda (NOTE that all icons confer the standard +1 to

combat resolution):

 

 

The Icon of Flame: As per C:CSM but additionally, the icon surrounds those nearby with

coruscating flames, meaning that any seeking to assault the bearer or

his fellows must run the risk of falling prey to the occult inferno.

Any unit which successfully assaults the bearer's unit immediately

suffers D6 flamer hits, distributed as shooting, which must be

resolved before any combat takes place. These wounds count towards

combat resolution.

 

 

The Icon of Medrengard: Held aloft by those hailing from the

brutal Iron Warriors legion (or those schooled in their ways), the

Icon of Medrengard most typically takes the form of a twisted

configuration of razor wire and serrated metal shards, often woven

throughout the flesh of some unfortunate bound to the icon by foul

sorceries. Those who fight beneath the icon are often superlative

siege and trench warfare experts, able to pin point the weak points

in enemy armour with surgical precision. The bearer and any unit he

accompanies gain the Tank Hunters U.S.R

and additionally become Stubborn when

occupying fortifications.

 

 

 

 

The Icon of Night: The vile icons carried aloft by those tutored in the sadistic ways of

the Night Lords stand as testaments to the unspeakable cruelty and

unparalleled viciousness of this most heinous of the Progenitor

legions. Often comprising of the bearer's own victims, the icons

writhe and shriek in bloodied agony, suspended in a flayed raw

mockery of life by the perversions of similarly twisted sorcerers.

Any unit successfully charged by the bearer and any unit he

accompanies suffers -2 Ld for the purposes of any subsequent morale

or leadership tests.

 

 

The Icon of The Word: Carried into battle by the most

fanatical of zealots, the Icons of The Word originate with the Word

Bearer's legion, though are also evinced by converts and crusaders

from throughout the Eye of Terror. Consisting of braziers of burning

skulls, tattered parchments of human flesh inked in blood and

grotesque, daemonic effigies, the Icons of The Word serve as loci of

Chaos worship within material space, allowing daemonic entities to

pin point specific locations in reality and tear their way through.

Any unit with the daemon U.S.R

that deep strikes within 6 inches of at least one model in a unit

with this icon will not scatter.

 

 

 

 

The Icon of the Hydra: Those displaying the Icon of the

Hydra, if not members of the Alpha Legion themselves, are puppets or

subordinates of the legion; schooled in the arts of deception and

subterfuge, they fight using precise guerilla tactics, infiltrating

enemy ground, sabotaging weaponry, sewing misinformation etc. The

bearer of this icon and any unit he accompanies have the infiltrate

U.S.R. Chaos Terminators, Khorne

Berserkers, Noise Marines, Raptors and Warp Talons instead have the

scout U.S.R.

 

 

 

 

The Black Icon: Sometimes bearing the image of a

stylised Eye of Horus or Chaos Octed, but most often simply a thing

of unadorned black, the Black Icon is borne into battle by those

sworn to the Warmaster, Abaddon the Despoiler and his Black Legion.

Those who fight beneath the banner do so with an unrelenting

bitterness and hatred, not to mention a burning fear of failing their

lord and master. The bearer and any unit he accompanies gain the

crusader and hammer

of wrath U.S.Rs.

 

Where do we pay you again?  Can we write a letter(s) to someone, anyone... for GW to hire this person, please?  A couple of pages of rules to fix the codex? 

[Agent Purple]

Alpha legion should get something that denies the opponent warlord kill VP.

[Scribe]

I would much much rather push a simpler is better approach.

 

Warp Assault would be godly, but in this edition feels out of place (re: Vanguard Vets just lost this) I also dislike Icons simply on principle. Dropping the stick doesnt change who you are, or how you fight, and anything that removes choice (Force Challenge) is a non-starter to me.

 

I play the list, but I dont have to like what they did to it in 6th.

 

For me?

 

Black Legion - VotlW is Standard, and Free. Terminators/Mutilators/Oblits roll 1D6 on Deep Strike and +1/-1 on Reserve rolls.

 

Alpha - Army wide Scout, anything that can reserve can out flank (I think someone posted this already? Or I read it elsewhere.)

 

Word Bearers - +1 on Daemon Reserve Rolls, Cultists can take Icons which can summon Daemons to them (Teleport Markers)

 

Iron Warriors - Stubborn, Tank Hunters on Havocs, and Chosen.

 

Night Lords - Fear, Once per game enemy must re-roll all leadership tests which pass for 1 game turn.

 

World Eaters - FnP 6+ in Assault. In addition, any model that loses its final wound before attacking, still makes its attacks at Initiative 1. Only MoK may be selected, and must be. In addition it grants Furious Charge, and +1 WS (Berzerker Template) Fearless

 

Emp Children - FnP 6+ in Assault, Only MoS can be selected, and must be, Sonic Weapons can be taken by any unit in the list as per 3.5 template and all units gain +d3 on Run, and Fleet. Fearless.

 

Death Guard - Only MoN can be selected, and must be. All units with MoN have FnP, as per Plague Marines, all Vehicles gain IWND. Fearless.

 

Thousand Sons - Only MoT can be selected, and must be. All HQ's becomes Lvl 1 Mastery, and can upgrade to level 3 at 25 points per level. Fearless, Terminators gain Rubric option, +1W and Sorcerer Bolts.

[Sanctimonius]

Liking some of the Night Lords ideas, modification to leadership, night fighting and fast assaults seems to make sense. I also like the warp assault rule, but it needs modification. Using the warp is risky, with potential for great reward. If you use a warp assault there must be a price paid, probably with a number of wounds distributed to the squad deep striking. The Gods demand their tithes. 

 

Death Guard: FnP on a 6+, stubborn (seriously, how has nobody suggested this yet? Key trait of Morty's boys!).

 

And some kind of modification is needed for that damn challenge rule. BT getting a better version is basically a slap in the face.

 

edit: also wanted to add that being told there wasn't enough space to give the legions their own specific rules, then see the SM codex get the very treatment we were denied, is downright insulting. GW needs to stop playing favourites and at least pretend they are making balanced dexes.

[Scribe]

Nobody official said there was no room for Legion rulles. Anyone number of us could have done it up on a Napkin, GW lacked the will, not the means.

[daboarder]

can I make a suggeestion, the big for legion traits turn the support options into cult equivalents. so none of this silly 6+ FNP for deathguard, give them proper 5+ FNP. its hardly OP when you also get smacked with the -1I that all death guard have as well.

[Iron_Within]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd prefer it if the mode of representing the legions was more idiosyncratic to Chaos rather than a simple hijacking of the Imperial system. This could be achieved very easily by making some key revisions to the army wide special rules and introducing more icons. The following are some suggestions I've been playing around with; no points costs as of yet, but they seem to function technically with no real problems:

• Army   Wide Special Rules:

Warp Assault: Even before the Heresy, units such as Terminators and Assault Squads

were deployed in remarkably different manner from their present-day equivalents: striking deep

into the heart of the enemy, their purpose was to tear out the heart

of the foe, demoralising and scattering all that remained. The

Traitor Legions and their allies have maintained this less precise

but more aggressive modus operandi during their ten thousand years of

exile, often utilising ancient and unreliable technology or occult

means to project spear-tip units through the Warp to cripple the

enemy before the fighting proper begins.

 

 

Units with this special rule may assault directly after deep

striking.

 

 

Love it. I'm trying to include constructive criticism in all my responses to each of your post, but honestly? I can't with your Warp Assault rule. It's iconic, it changes the dynamic of the army (Warp Talons just become a true glass hammer and a scary one). If I have to pick holes, it might be a tad too powerful. Playing Devils advocate to your devils advocate; it could be abused. Imagine it maxed out to stupid, e.g. two units of 15 Raptors along with a 10 man Terminator unit with Khorne lord with AoBF Deep striking and then charging, there is no real counter to it other than bad luck with scatter dice. I would say it is limited to one unit per FOC. That would mean there is still a tactical decision involved.

Champion of Chaos:

 

 

As per C:CSM with the following addenda:

 

 

Ritual challenges are a way of life for those who aspire to positions

of authority within the ranks of the Chaos Space Marines. Unlike

their loyalist brethren, who may be promoted thanks to qualities such

as discipline or tactical elan, the Chaos Space Marines respect only

strength of arms, meaning that only the most skilled and brutal

aspirants ever survive.

 

When fighting in a challenge, models with this special rule benefit

from +1 WS and +1A. Furthermore, if they happen to win the challenge,

they inspire their followers to heights of beatific frenzy in the

name of Chaos. Any unit they accompany temporarily gains the Zealot

USR for the purposes of the next game turn.

Would they still get the Chaos Boon Roll? What would be the result if they rolled Dark Apotheosis or Spawndom? Would this influence the Zealot rule?

Marks of Chaos

 

As per Codex: CSM with the following addenda:

 

The Mark of Tzeentch:

 

Those marked by the Great  Conspirator often benefit from incredible good fortune or twists of chance as Tzeentch and his daemons warp reality around them to suit their proscribed purpose in the dark god's plans. Models with The Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single long-range “to hit” shot per turn or may force a re-roll of a single long range “to hit” shot that targets them per turn.

 

Any psyker with The Mark of Tzeentch additionally counts his Mastery Level as one higher for the purposes of spell selection.

Are you saying that regular CSM's with mark of Tzeentch firing a Bolter or Plasma gun are effectively twin-linked outside of 12"? Is this per unit or per model? As per model seems very powerful. What happens if they re-roll in their shooting of turn 2 but they are are shot back at in their opponents phase? are they still able to force a re-roll? Also is this per unit or per model?

 

Would it not be simpler to say that Non-psykers can re-roll '1's'? for shooting and armour saves? Note not invulnerable saves though. That includes both shooting and saves and achieves the same results without complication.

The Icon of Flame: As per C:CSM but additionally, the icon surrounds those nearby with

coruscating flames, meaning that any seeking to assault the bearer or

his fellows must run the risk of falling prey to the occult inferno.

Any unit which successfully assaults the bearer's unit immediately

suffers D6 flamer hits, distributed as shooting, which must be

resolved before any combat takes place. These wounds count towards

combat resolution.

Nice. Makes Rubrics a dedicated shooting unit. Why not have to have the 'soul blaze' USR to these hits?

The Icon of Medrengard: Held aloft by those hailing from the

brutal Iron Warriors legion (or those schooled in their ways), the

Icon of Medrengard most typically takes the form of a twisted

configuration of razor wire and serrated metal shards, often woven

throughout the flesh of some unfortunate bound to the icon by foul

sorceries. Those who fight beneath the icon are often superlative

siege and trench warfare experts, able to pin point the weak points

in enemy armour with surgical precision. The bearer and any unit he

accompanies gain the Tank Hunters U.S.R

and additionally become Stubborn when

occupying fortifications.

When you say inside a fortification, what do you mean? If you mean on the battlements of a Bastion or FoR then this rule has limited inclusion or use. The most damage they're going to take is likely from shooting which means stubborn is useless. If you mean inside Fortifications then that would be pointless as they are already fearless inside. Would it not make more sense to have the 'Fearless' when occupying Battlements etc. and stubborn at all other times?

The Icon of Night: The vile icons carried aloft by those tutored in the sadistic ways of

the Night Lords stand as testaments to the unspeakable cruelty and

unparalleled viciousness of this most heinous of the Progenitor

legions. Often comprising of the bearer's own victims, the icons

writhe and shriek in bloodied agony, suspended in a flayed raw

mockery of life by the perversions of similarly twisted sorcerers.

Any unit successfully charged by the bearer and any unit he

accompanies suffers -2 Ld for the purposes of any subsequent morale

or leadership tests.

Love it. Maybe simplify it to simply 'combat' rather than just on the charge. However I understand if this isn't something you envisage. I can see both that a sudden charge could break or make an enemy. If they resist the first assault they could have steeled themselves against the Night Lords.

The Icon of The Word: Carried into battle by the most

fanatical of zealots, the Icons of The Word originate with the Word

Bearer's legion, though are also evinced by converts and crusaders

from throughout the Eye of Terror. Consisting of braziers of burning

skulls, tattered parchments of human flesh inked in blood and

grotesque, daemonic effigies, the Icons of The Word serve as loci of

Chaos worship within material space, allowing daemonic entities to

pin point specific locations in reality and tear their way through.

Any unit with the daemon U.S.R

that deep strikes within 6 inches of at least one model in a unit

with this icon will not scatter.

I'm not sure on this one, because it only really works with the Daemon Codex, which makes it slave to another army completely which I don't like the idea of. The only real unit that benefit from this Icon in the Chaos army is the Warp Talons.

 

 

The Icon of the Hydra: Those displaying the Icon of the

Hydra, if not members of the Alpha Legion themselves, are puppets or

subordinates of the legion; schooled in the arts of deception and

subterfuge, they fight using precise guerilla tactics, infiltrating

enemy ground, sabotaging weaponry, sewing misinformation etc. The

bearer of this icon and any unit he accompanies have the infiltrate

U.S.R. Chaos Terminators, Khorne

Berserkers, Noise Marines, Raptors and Warp Talons instead have the

scout U.S.R.

I struggle to find fault with this.

The Black Icon: Sometimes bearing the image of a

stylised Eye of Horus or Chaos Octed, but most often simply a thing

of unadorned black, the Black Icon is borne into battle by those

sworn to the Warmaster, Abaddon the Despoiler and his Black Legion.

Those who fight beneath the banner do so with an unrelenting

bitterness and hatred, not to mention a burning fear of failing their

lord and master. The bearer and any unit he accompanies gain the

crusader and hammer

of wrath U.S.Rs.

No issues with the Black Icon

 

The one overarching issue I would want to raise is because the idea you have come up with relies on banners as a measure of demonstrating the character of a legion. Which means that the character of the Legion can be sniped off them. Why do you think that should be the case?

[Warsmith Aznable]

The one overarching issue I would want to raise is because the idea you have come up with relies on banners as a measure of demonstrating the character of a legion. Which means that the character of the Legion can be sniped off them. Why do you think that should be the case?

 

I agree that "dropping the stick" is a serious problem for any type of Legion trait proposal, and was terrible in the old codex when it conferred a Mark. It makes sense for the current Icon scheme, but not for marks or traits.

[Sanctimonius]

The icon rules really does need to be changed. Surely someone would pick it up if the guy was sniped? And why do the Gods need a homing device for their favour? You should purchase the upgrade for the unit, the icon and bearer is just for show. 

[Trevak Dal]

World Eaters get Old School Furious Charge (+1 strength, +1 initiative) and ap5 rending for Khornate CCWs, if they activate Counter Attack they get +2 attacks instead of just +1 and can consolidate into an enemy unit if they wipe one, but only one unit in addition to the first one being assaulted per turn.

 

WS5 BS3 6+ FNP in CC across the board and open topped Rhinos.

 

*Drops mic*

[SRSFACE]

Man, this thread has been a blast to read. You guys are great. :D

 

Just a couple of points:

 

In regards to the Legions of the Chaos Gods, keep in mind most players who do Death Guard/Thousand Sons/Emp's Children/World Eaters are going to be using Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines and Khorne Berserkers as their troop choices. I've seen a few people suggest characters automatically gaining Psyker mastery 1, but then it'd make Thousand Sons as a unit period, let alone as a troop choice, a really bad idea. They'd simply be too expensive to ever be taken if you could just bring regular marines and your Aspiring Champion suddenly is as good as an Aspiring Sorcerer. Besides, if you want to make non-psyker HQ units into one, there's already a Relic that does that, and I don't want to mitigate wargear options already in the book. If you want something you can spend points on, you must still spend points to get it.

 

Someone suggested stubborn for death guard. Thing is, Plague Marines are already fearless. It'd benefit their non-troops, but I feel kills the desire of bringing the most fluffiest unit as a troop choice, you know?

 

 

ALL THAT SAID, I do like the idea of simply forcing DG/TS/EC/WE to buy marks on any units that can take them and makes it so they cannot bring units which worship other gods. Making it so those marks also did something on top of it would be cool.

 

DG: Once a game, may use Swarm of Flies. All allied units with Mark of Nurgle or Daemon of Nurgle gains shrouded and Feel No Pain (5+) until beginning of their next turn. Units that already have FNP increase their FNP rolls by +1 instead. Units with It Will Not Die gain +1 to IWND rolls.

TS: Once a game, may use "Just as Planned." Until beginning of the player's next turn, all units with Mark of Tzeentch or Daemon of Tzeentch may rerolls ones on To Hit and reroll any 1s on any Saving Throws.

EC: Once a game, may use "Excessive Force." Until beginning of player's next turn, all units with mark of Slaanesh or Daemon of Slaanesh gain Fleet, Hammer of Wrath and melee attacks gain Rending.

WE: Once a game, may use "Blood for the Blood God." Until beginning of player's next turn, all units with Mark of Khorne or Daemon of Khorne gain Furious Charge and +1 attack until end of turn. If the unit already contains Furious Charge, it gains +2 strength instead of the usual +1.

[Excessus]

@srsface, Daemons of Tzeentch can already reroll 1s on their saving throw, and they have access to divination so rerolls to hit as well. Good thought, but kinda redundant if you ally with Tzeentch Daemons. :)

[Chronotonic]

Night Lords:

 

-Hit and Run tactics.  they have been fighting for 10,000 years and they know that 1000 small cuts can kill just as easily as 1 large one

-Deamon usage is curtailed majorly...want a deamon run Night Lords play C:CSM haha

-Raptors becomes troop choice on top of Marine Squads

-Warp Talons get point cost reduction

[Redtoof]

I both love and hate topics like this. I love them because I like to play armchair games developer and come up with new rules, but I hate them because it just makes me more annoyed with what we've actually got. :(

 

Anyway, Alpha legion:

 

It looks like the general consensus so far is some sort of outflank/infiltrate/stealth based combo. Here is my take on it:

 

-All units gain the outflank USR and stealth USR on the turn they deploy or arrive from reserves.

-If the Alpha Legion warlord is killed, roll a D6, on 4+ then after the battle the enemy discover that the body is in fact not of the warlord at all, and is merely a disguised Alpha Legionnaire. Your opponent does not get a victory point for 'Slay the Warlord'.

[Dammeron]

 

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd prefer it if the mode of representing the legions was more idiosyncratic to Chaos rather than a simple hijacking of the Imperial system. This could be achieved very easily by making some key revisions to the army wide special rules and introducing more icons. The following are some suggestions I've been playing around with; no points costs as of yet, but they seem to function technically with no real problems:

• Army   Wide Special Rules:

Warp Assault: Even before the Heresy, units such as Terminators and Assault Squads

were deployed in remarkably different manner from their present-day equivalents: striking deep

into the heart of the enemy, their purpose was to tear out the heart

of the foe, demoralising and scattering all that remained. The

Traitor Legions and their allies have maintained this less precise

but more aggressive modus operandi during their ten thousand years of

exile, often utilising ancient and unreliable technology or occult

means to project spear-tip units through the Warp to cripple the

enemy before the fighting proper begins.

 

 

Units with this special rule may assault directly after deep

striking.

 

Love it. I'm trying to include constructive criticism in all my responses to each of your post, but honestly? I can't with your Warp Assault rule. It's iconic, it changes the dynamic of the army (Warp Talons just become a true glass hammer and a scary one). If I have to pick holes, it might be a tad too powerful. Playing Devils advocate to your devils advocate; it could be abused. Imagine it maxed out to stupid, e.g. two units of 15 Raptors along with a 10 man Terminator unit with Khorne lord with AoBF Deep striking and then charging, there is no real counter to it other than bad luck with scatter dice. I would say it is limited to one unit per FOC. That would mean there is still a tactical decision involved.

 

Many thanks indeed; I think the thoughts and suggestions you've made are generally sound. To limit the effectiveness of Warp Assault, perhaps we could have squads pay a premium in points for it or, since GW love their whole "Chaos = random" thing right now, have it apply to only D3 units deep striking units per battle, or something to that effect. The inspiration for the rule is simply to provide some differentiation between Chaos Space Marines and Imperial ones; one which is firmly rooted in the background. The HH novels generally help in this regard, since this is precisely how deep striking/teleporting units seem to work. Another alternative is to tie it closer to sorcery and occultism: perhaps only one deep striking unit per army may benefit from Warp Assault per sorcerer in your army, representing the fact that they require sorcerers to guide them through the Warp.

 

Champion of Chaos:

 

 

As per C:CSM with the following addenda:

 

 

Ritual challenges are a way of life for those who aspire to positions

of authority within the ranks of the Chaos Space Marines. Unlike

their loyalist brethren, who may be promoted thanks to qualities such

as discipline or tactical elan, the Chaos Space Marines respect only

strength of arms, meaning that only the most skilled and brutal

aspirants ever survive.

 

When fighting in a challenge, models with this special rule benefit

from +1 WS and +1A. Furthermore, if they happen to win the challenge,

they inspire their followers to heights of beatific frenzy in the

name of Chaos. Any unit they accompany temporarily gains the Zealot

USR for the purposes of the next game turn.

 

Would they still get the Chaos Boon Roll? What would be the result if they rolled Dark Apotheosis or Spawndom? Would this influence the Zealot rule?

 

Yep; unless otherwise specifically stated, all additions and addendums I'll provide in this thread are in addition to what is presented in the codex. What I did have in mind is to present a couple of minor tweaks to the Eye of the Gods table later, specifically:

 

Spawndom: If a character is reduced to spawndom as a result of rolling on the Eye of the Gods table, any unit it accompanies must half its leadership (rounding up) for the following game turn.

 

Dark Apotheosis: Witnessing one of their own aspire to the ultimate state of glory is inspirational beyond words to the warrors of Chaos; a testament to their dark faith and the beliefs that spur them on to greater and greater acts of atrocity. In addition to the rules presented in C:CSM, any unit including a character which achieves Dark Apotheosis will benefit from the Crusader and Zealot U.S.Rs for the purposes of the next game turn. Also, any model transformed into a daemon prince will retain any war gear, special rules, psychic powers etc they carry. NOTE: This is entirely consistent with the background, since Daemon Princes are universally described as carrying debased versions of their former equipment and also retain much of their individuality when transcended to their new state of disgrace.

 

Marks of Chaos

 

As per Codex: CSM with the following addenda:

 

The Mark of Tzeentch:

 

Those marked by the Great  Conspirator often benefit from incredible good fortune or twists of chance as Tzeentch and his daemons warp reality around them to suit their proscribed purpose in the dark god's plans. Models with The Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single long-range “to hit” shot per turn or may force a re-roll of a single long range “to hit” shot that targets them per turn.

 

Any psyker with The Mark of Tzeentch additionally counts his Mastery Level as one higher for the purposes of spell selection.

 

Are you saying that regular CSM's with mark of Tzeentch firing a Bolter or Plasma gun are effectively twin-linked outside of 12"? Is this per unit or per model? As per model seems very powerful. What happens if they re-roll in their shooting of turn 2 but they are are shot back at in their opponents phase? are they still able to force a re-roll? Also is this per unit or per model?

 

Would it not be simpler to say that Non-psykers can re-roll '1's'? for shooting and armour saves? Note not invulnerable saves though. That includes both shooting and saves and achieves the same results without complication.

 

Completely agree; this simplifies what I was attempting to represent without it being too OTT.

 

 

 

The Icon of Medrengard: Held aloft by those hailing from the

brutal Iron Warriors legion (or those schooled in their ways), the

Icon of Medrengard most typically takes the form of a twisted

configuration of razor wire and serrated metal shards, often woven

throughout the flesh of some unfortunate bound to the icon by foul

sorceries. Those who fight beneath the icon are often superlative

siege and trench warfare experts, able to pin point the weak points

in enemy armour with surgical precision. The bearer and any unit he

accompanies gain the Tank Hunters U.S.R

and additionally become Stubborn when

occupying fortifications.

 

When you say inside a fortification, what do you mean? If you mean on the battlements of a Bastion or FoR then this rule has limited inclusion or use. The most damage they're going to take is likely from shooting which means stubborn is useless.

 

This one definitely needs some work; I do think that Tank Hunters should be the basis, but it needs something else to represent the Iron Warriors capacity for siege and trench warfare. Maybe something bolstering any fortification they occupy to represent them shoring it up and making it more durable? Maybe any structure they occupy benefits from +1 AV all round whilst they occupy it, up to a maximum of 14, or maybe the cover value provided could be enhanced?

[Kol Saresk]

Night Lords:

 

-Hit and Run tactics.  they have been fighting for 10,000 years and they know that 1000 small cuts can kill just as easily as 1 large one

-Deamon usage is curtailed majorly...want a deamon run Night Lords play C:CSM haha

-Raptors becomes troop choice on top of Marine Squads

-Warp Talons get point cost reduction

Hmm, maybe change to Raptors get Outflank? Or something else?

 

I agree that if a unit should get benefits under the Night Lords, it will probably be the Raptors but I don't think that benefit should be to make them troops. It lives up to an unfluffy stereotype and would only serve to further said stereotype until the Night Lords aren't terrorists(that is what we call people who use terror tactics after all) but screwed Blood Angels. That's what most people who don't know better think anyways.

[arkagl]

I'd also say make the favored numbers come back. If you have a favored number for a god you get free stuff.