We should make our own C:CSM Legion Tactics

[Chronotonic]

 

Night Lords:

 

-Hit and Run tactics.  they have been fighting for 10,000 years and they know that 1000 small cuts can kill just as easily as 1 large one

-Deamon usage is curtailed majorly...want a deamon run Night Lords play C:CSM haha

-Raptors becomes troop choice on top of Marine Squads

-Warp Talons get point cost reduction

Hmm, maybe change to Raptors get Outflank? Or something else?

 

I agree that if a unit should get benefits under the Night Lords, it will probably be the Raptors but I don't think that benefit should be to make them troops. It lives up to an unfluffy stereotype and would only serve to further said stereotype until the Night Lords aren't terrorists(that is what we call people who use terror tactics after all) but screwed Blood Angels. That's what most people who don't know better think anyways.

 

 

I am actually one of the guys who loves the Night Lords but does not think the Raptors should be a troop choice I put that there for those other...weirdos....haha

 

but Outflank would work even better...

[Kol Saresk]

I know you are, I just figured I'd go ahead and hit that nail on the head. No compromises! Especially on the broken, shattered, nightmare of a Legion that we all love and adore.

[Zhorzh]

How do you represent Night Lords properly without their rules being similar to other chapters or legions (Scouts, Infiltrate)?

 

Also the way I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the NL main trait are terror tactics. But how do you make terror rules in the game where most stuff is Stubborn, Fearless or has ATSKNF?

[Kol Saresk]

How do you represent Night Lords properly without their rules being similar to other chapters or legions (Scouts, Infiltrate)?

 

Also the way I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the NL main trait are terror tactics. But how do you make terror rules in the game where most stuff is Stubborn, Fearless or has ATSKNF?

You can't. But you don't compensate by slapping a Jump Pack on all of them either. You throw in Leadership debuffs as suggested above, or add hit and run, outflank, or stealth(a la 3.5) and perhaps ways to force Night Fighting along with the all too appropriate Night Vision USR. There are million and ways to do it other than living up to a bad, unfluffy stereotype and saying Night Lords should be the Raptor Legion.

[Excessus]

Ally with IG, throw in a psyker squad and lower the enemy's Ld every turn. Fluffy and fun... :)

[Chronotonic]

I think that while the night lords are a raptor legion they are not just a raptor legion...

 

Maybe a special character zso sahaal maybe would allow them to become troops but other then that maybe a point cost reduction -2 over per marine off unless they become troop choice...

[Kol Saresk]

That, I can go for, especially since Zso Sahaal was the original Talonmaster.

[Chronotonic]

there should also be a rule that if he has joined a unit that champion cannot take his place in a duel as either Zso wont allow it or he has yet to reclaim his honour for leadership so they only follow him for now...

[Dammeron]

A few more bits and pieces from my fast coalescing home grown codex:

First of all, a general note on Icons:

 Chaos Icons are simply visual representations of certain traits and characteristics of the unit that bears them, not to mention a technical element that simplifie army building. Units with Icon Bearers do not lose the benefits or special rules associated with an icon if the icon bearer is removed as a casualty.

The following are additions to the god-specific icons already presented in the codex. I know it might be over-kill, but why not use the mechanism to represent a little more of the various aspects of the Chaos Powers?

 Icons of Khorne (may only be carried by models with The Mark of Khorne):
 

Icon of Blood:

Festooned with headless corpses   that constantly rain blood upon the warriors below, the Icon  of Blood drives any  dedicated to the Lord of Skulls into depths of frenzy beyond mortal    comprehension. The bearer and any model in a unit he accompanies  gain the rending U.S.R  in the first round of combat after successfully assaulting.
 

Icon of Skulls:
 

An array of polished skulls bound   together with spiked and clanking chains, the Icon  of Skulls is most  commonly borne into battle by those who seek to prove their martial   capability and honour above all things by slaying the most worthy of   opponents. Any close combat “to hit” rolls of 6 in the first   round of combat after a successful assault gain the Instant   Death U.S.R.
 

Icons of Tzeentch

    

Icon of Change:

 

Constantly shifting between states,  the Icon of Change may   one moment resemble a storm of exotic insects, the next a blaze of   variously tinted fire or mercurial waters in which things of living   light swim and consume one another. The icon represents Tzeentch in  his most elemental and mercurial aspect: as the Changer of Ways, and    one only too happy to twist the mortal substance of his puppets and   play things to better suit his whims. At the beginning of the owning   player's turn, roll on the Eye of the Gods table   for any unit that includes this icon and apply the result to every  model in that unit (re-rolling Spawndom and Dark    Apotheosis). The result   will apply until the beginning the owning player's next turn.
 

Icon of Sorcery:

 

 Tzeentch is not the master of   sorcery; he is its very manifestation; the living embodiment of all  magic and occult arts. His followers are invariably gifted with all    manner of strange and potent powers, though more often than not find  themselves consumed by crafts they neither comprehend nor control.  Any unit that includes this icon gains the Brotherhood of  Psykers special rule and may  roll a single power from The Lore of Change (see  later section: Lores of  the Gods) which they  utilise throughout the battle in addition to any other shooting  attacks they may make.
 

Icons of Nurgle

Icon of Decay:
 

 

A twisted structure of fractured, pulpy wood and tattered hides, the Icon of Decay is emblematic  of the inevitable victory of Grandfather Nurgle, since all things,    be they abstract or material, eventually succumb to entropy. Any  unit attempting to assault a unit that includes this icon counts as  doing through difficult terrain. If already in difficult terrain,  the terrain counts as dangerous instead.

The Pandemic Icon:
 

Disease and infection are Nurgle's most bounteous and heartfelt   gifts to the mortal realm. Where his followers tread, plague and  pandemic shortly follow. Any unit that successfully assaults a unit  that includes this icon will be at -1 T for the first round of    combat.
 

Icons of Slaanesh: Still working on these. Will get back with some suggestions ASAP! Until then, some general rule re-jigs:

 

Daemon Weapons:

 

As per codex, save that any HQ may   upgrade a single weapon it carries to a Daemon  Weapon for a specific  points cost. Daemon  Weapons maintain all of    their usual rules and capabilities but additionally gain the  properties of Daemon   Weapons as described in  C:CSM. Long range Daemon  Weapons may add +D6 to    either their strength, number of shots or effective range per turn,  but any “to hit” rolls of a 1 have the same effect as “to hit”  rolls of 1 for melee Daemon    Weapons.

 

 

Specific Units:

 

HQ:

Chaos Lords: As per C:CSM but additionally may be upgraded to specific “cult”
lords for a specified cost if they have the required Mark of Chaos:

 

Chaos Lords with The    Mark of Nurgle may be    upgraded to Plague Lords,    in which instance they benefit from Feel    No Pain, have -1 I and    have Poisoned Attacks

 

Chaos Lords with The Mark of Tzeentch may be upgraded to Sorcerer Lords for blah blah points, in which instance they gain the psyker U.S.R and have a mastery level of 1. They may be upgraded to Mastery Level of 2 or 3 for the same cost as a Chaos Sorcerer and may roll on either the Lore of Change (see later), Divination, Telepathy, Biomancy or Pyromancy disciplines. They also benefit from the Daemonic Pacts special rule detailed below. 

 

Chaos Lords with The Mark of Khorne may be upgraded to Berserker Lords for whatever  points, in which instance they gain +1 WS and the Furious Assault U.S.R and automatically count as carrying a Khornate Chain Axe.
    

Chaos Lords with The Mark of Slaanesh may be upgraded to Pleasure Lords, in which instance  they gain the Hit and Run U.S.R and automatically count as carrying a Sonic Blaster. They may also purchase a Doom Siren for blah blah points.
    
    

Chaos Sorcerers:

 

May be upgraded in the same manner  as Chaos Lords and  with the same effects to represent their belonging to particular sub  cults. Sorcerers of Tzeentch already have an added benefit built  into their revised Mark (see earlier post concerning The  Mark of Tzeentch).

   

Special Rule:
 

Daemonic Pacts:

Unlike the constrained disciplined   Librarians of the Loyalist Chapters, Chaos Space Marine sorcerers   delve into any source of potential revelation, some arrogantly   assuming their wills are equal to mastering any potential threats   whereas others -particularly psykers of Slaanesh- simply do not care  what Hell they might plunge themselves into. Most commonly, such  sources come in the form of Daemonic  Pacts, bargains made   with the creatures beyond the veil of reality in order to bolster  the Sorcerer's power in return for certain boons and favours. Though  the power that can be derived from such a bargain can be immense,  the sorcerer should be wary; more often than not, the bargaining   daemon will betray their erstwhile ally, attempting to devour his  soul or claim his body for their own.

 

A sorcerer with this special rule may proclaim that they are using a Daemonic Pact to fuel a psychic power before casting it. If they do so, and cast a power successfully, they may add D6 to its effective range or strength. However, if they fail to cast, they will automatically come under a Perils of the Warp attack and will suffer 2 wounds instead of one.
    

[the jeske]

How do you represent Night Lords properly without their rules being similar to other chapters or legions (Scouts, Infiltrate)?

 

Also the way I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the NL main trait are terror tactics. But how do you make terror rules in the game where most stuff is Stubborn, Fearless or has ATSKNF?

Ld modification , making psychic powers harder to use . add a terror rule negates any other Ld modification when in certain range of NL HQ/durning night fight etc.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

"Lords of Terror" All enemy units within 24" of a model with this rule suffer -2 leadership, and if they have the rules ATSKNF, fearless or stubbon, they lose them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

"Lords of Terror" All enemy units within 24" of a model with this rule suffer -2 leadership, and if they have the rules ATSKNF, fearless or stubbon, they lose them.

 

No.  Not just no, but "Hell no!"  I can see stripping Stubborn. . . I can even see stripping Fearless, for that matter.  But the moment you pull ATSKNF from a unit of Space Marines, you've gone too far.  It just doesn't fit the fluff.  The Night Lords don't terrify other Space Marines, just mortal humans.

[arkagl]

I think Dammeron, you're on the right track but there needs to be some icons for undivided also for the specific undivided chapters. Like what about:

 

Icons of Undivided (Can only be carried by models with no mark or Mark of Undivided)

 

Iron Warriors - Icon of the Dark Machines - All models unit get 6+ FNP

 

Night Lords - Icon of the Darkness - All models in the unit get Hit and Run

[Dammeron]

I think Dammeron, you're on the right track but there needs to be some icons for undivided also for the specific undivided chapters. Like what about:

 

Icons of Undivided (Can only be carried by models with no mark or Mark of Undivided)

 

Iron Warriors - Icon of the Dark Machines - All models unit get 6+ FNP

 

Night Lords - Icon of the Darkness - All models in the unit get Hit and Run

 

See my earlier post in this topic ;)

[the jeske]

 

"Lords of Terror" All enemy units within 24" of a model with this rule suffer -2 leadership, and if they have the rules ATSKNF, fearless or stubbon, they lose them.

 

No.  Not just no, but "Hell no!"  I can see stripping Stubborn. . . I can even see stripping Fearless, for that matter.  But the moment you pull ATSKNF from a unit of Space Marines, you've gone too far.  It just doesn't fit the fluff.  The Night Lords don't terrify other Space Marines, just mortal humans.

that is not what the NL fluff say. it says that they very well do scare other marines , just like their primarch was able to scare other primarchs.

[Gree]

Well for the Night Lords I had thought about this:

Night Lords:

Heralds of Terror: The Night Lords excelled in psychological warfare, considering fear to be a weapon stronger than any bolter and blade. A favored tactic is interfering with enemy communications, disrupting com-channels with vox-static and terrifying screams.
-All units gain the Fear USR at no additional cost. In addition the enemy force's Reserve rolls are at -1 for the game.

Scions of Nostramo: The Night Lords were born and bred on a sunless world forever shrouded in night. Along the Astartes Legions they excelled the best at night warfare. For them the darkness was an old friend.
-All units gain the Night Vision special rule at no addition cost. In addition cover saves during Night Fighting may be re-rolled.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

"Lords of Terror" All enemy units within 24" of a model with this rule suffer -2 leadership, and if they have the rules ATSKNF, fearless or stubbon, they lose them.

 

No.  Not just no, but "Hell no!"  I can see stripping Stubborn. . . I can even see stripping Fearless, for that matter.  But the moment you pull ATSKNF from a unit of Space Marines, you've gone too far.  It just doesn't fit the fluff.  The Night Lords don't terrify other Space Marines, just mortal humans.

that is not what the NL fluff say. it says that they very well do scare other marines , just like their primarch was able to scare other primarchs.

 

Really?  Because the Blood Angels in Soul Hunter, the Marines Errant in Blood Reaver, and the Ultramarine successors at the start of Void Stalker didn't seem frightened at all when fighting the Night Lords.

[the jeske]

Read the horus heresy stuff . ADB is not the only writer that does NL fluff.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Read the horus heresy stuff . ADB is not the only writer that does NL fluff.

 

Fine.  In The Dark King, Curze himself fights Imperial Fists and Emperor's Children -- neither of which run and hide or cower in the corner.  They die fighting him.  In Savage Weapons and again in Prince of Crows, we see Dark Angels ambushing the Night Lords, and scattering them; the Angels were obviously not scared of them, either, since they are the attackers.  I don't have Vulkan Lives yet, so I can't comment there, but I know that Curze is in it.  So even if it involves Salamanders being terrified of the Night Lords, that's one story out of four Heresy-era ones (and seven total novels or short stories) that involve Night Lords fighting against other Space Marines where the other Marines are "scared" of the Night Lords.

 

Oh, and of those seven stories, five of them are by ADB.  So if anyone's vision of the Night Lords should be considered predominant, it's his.

[Kol Saresk]

I can testify that no Marines are scared by Curze in Vulkan Lives.

 

However, I would say that Marines get unsettled, horrified and very occasionally, pissed off by Night Lords. Heck, even Lorgar was unsettled by Curze's bedchambers(Butcher's Nails by A D-B).

 

For example, one of Graham McNeill's short stories, Uriel Ventris is repulsed by the living Astartes that had been draped across the hull of one of their Rhinos.

 

There was also the core.

 

So if we're screwing with ATSKNF, IIRC they have to consolidate at least six inches away from the closest enemy? Perhaps puch it back to eight? Or, they just can't shoot with heavy weapons but everything else happens normally?

 

After all, most players and in-universe characters who know the Night Lords view them as weaklings, cowards and animals. If you're a super-soldier and a coward is making you consolidate a distance away, you're going to think twice.

 

Or maybe, make them role for their Leadership, but, if they pass, give them some sort of bonus to show their resolve to continue regardless of the horrors presented?

 

But that is a big if. And its one I would cross very cautiously and even then, I would never dream of just completely nullifying it. Debuffing it, yes. But not making it useless.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ok, but a pissed off Space Marine doesn't run away screaming.  He run forwards screaming.

[daveNYC]

Fluff is all well and good, but there's got to be some concession to the fact that over half the armies being played have ATSKNF.  I don't think anyone wants their Chapter Trait to effectively be "hope your opponent is playing Imperial Guard".

[Lexington]

"Lords of Terror" All enemy units within 24" of a model with this rule suffer -2 leadership, and if they have the rules ATSKNF, fearless or stubbon, they lose them.

24" bubbles are so large as to be pointless - by Turn 2, you're looking at 80 - 90% of the board being covered. You might as well just remove the rules from any force the Night Lords face. Removing ATSKNF, Fear and Stubborn is also way, way too much for a "free" rule.

 

Well for the Night Lords I had thought about this:

These I like much better - they're small and elegant, much like the Space Marine Chapter Tactics.

[Kol Saresk]

Ok, but a pissed off Space Marine doesn't run away screaming. He run forwards screaming.

I wasn't saying he should run away screaming. Just relocating until he can properly assess the threat and then run forward screaming.

 

That's why I made something like a "think twice clause", force them to role, but if they're successful, not only give them ATSKNF, but a little bonus as well.

[Gree]

I don't think Night Lords should really affect ATSNKF or Fearless. I don't recall any instance were they actually terrified another Astartes in the fluff. They've inspired disgust, revulsion and horror, but that's not really the same as fear.

 

That, and the whole theme about the Night Lords is that they dislike attacking strong targets and prefer weak, helpless victims. That doesn't strike me as ''We terrify the fearless!''

These I like much better - they're small and elegant, much like the Space Marine Chapter Tactics.

Thanks. That's what I was going for. Most of the loyalist Chapter tactics are fairly simple applications of USR's and not particularly game breaking.