We should make our own C:CSM Legion Tactics

[Dammeron]

Rather than negating or affecting ATSKNF, which is highly characteristic of loyalist marines, it would perhaps be more appropriate if whatever effect the Night Lords produce affects leadershop directly udner certain circumstances. My Icon of Night, for example, simply imposes a -2 Ld penalty on any unit that suffers a successful assault from the bearer and any unit he accompanies. Simple, not too OTT; highly redolent of the Night Lord's character, without diminishing ATSKNF.

 

I was also asked earlier why I'm utilising the icon system in my revised codex: First of all, I rather like the core concept of icons; the Chaos Sace Marines by nature are far more iconoclastic by nature, but also far more enamoured of their particular iconography than most loyalist counterparts, who are far more about military structure, chapter tradition etc. It also provides a very easy mechanism by which the capabilities of certain units can be identified by both the owner and opposing player, and also looks suoerb on the battlefield, providing some truly excellent modelling opportunities. Last, but by no means least, the use of an icon system rather than the manner in which chapter traits are applied in the imperialist codex provides a subtly different means of customising units and armies: whereas imperial space marines, who are cohered by common doctrine, purchase traits on a detatchment wide basis, chaos space marines are far more individualistic: the icon system allows partoicular squads to buy capabilities rather than detatchments, allowing for representation of rag tag warbands cohered from lots of different sources or a more coherent force derived esclusively from one of the original traitor legions.

 

The only real problem lies in the mechanism's implementation: the death of the bearer SHOULD NOT remove the icon's capabilities from the unit, since one of the other chaos space marines will simply pick the damn thing up from where it falls. Similarly, the icons themselves should not necessarily be exclusively magical in nature; the abilities they confer should ideally be symbolic; demonstrating characteristics of the squads that bear them rather conferring them via some occult means (at ;least for the "undivided" legions; the god-specific icons are obviously somewhat different in nature).

 

Oh, while I'm here:

 

Icons of Slaanesh:

 

- The Icon of Desire:

 

A flowing assembly of ethereal silks and fine leathers, the Icon of Desire is surrounded by sweet, exotic perfumes and distant music. Those enraptured by its enchantments experience flickering illusions of their heart's desires; old lovers, friends and family beckoning to them, inviting them into what seems a waking dream. any enemy unit that is within assault range of a unit that bears this icon during its own assault phase must attempt to assault this unit as opposed to another. If within charge range of two or more units with this icon, the owning player determines which unit it attempts to assault.

 

- The Icon of Violation:

 

Slaanesh's power derives from the mortal drive to transgress beyond imposed limits; to push cultural, moral and philosophical parameters to the brink and beyond, until all definition dissolves, leaving behind only chaos and the extremes of state and experience it can provide. These icons take many forms; some are little more than banners bearing images of surrealism and obscenity; works of art designed to assault the senses of those who look upon them, whereas others are somewhat more overt demonstrations of the Dark Prince's philosophies: flayed forms surgically stitched one to the other, screaming and sighing unholy thanks for their mutilated conditions, obscene sculptures of bone and flesh; living anatomy rendered as the stuff of art. Those who walk beneath such effigies fear nothing, resist nothing; all experience and sensation is welcome, from the transcendent to the profane. Models in units with this icon benefit from the Fearless and Fleet U.S.Rs.

 

 

More to come soon; still working on a few bits and pieces.

[Kol Saresk]

Rather than negating or affecting ATSKNF, which is highly characteristic of loyalist marines, it would perhaps be more appropriate if whatever effect the Night Lords produce affects leadershop directly udner certain circumstances. My Icon of Night, for example, simply imposes a -2 Ld penalty on any unit that suffers a successful assault from the bearer and any unit he accompanies. Simple, not too OTT; highly redolent of the Night Lord's character, without diminishing ATSKNF.

That's why I said it was a very big "if", not a definite, and not one that I'd shoot for, at least not without giving some sort of tradeoff since Space Marines "Know NO Fear"(unless they live in the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom). At worst, it will just make a Loyalist Marine go "Maybe I bit off more than I can chew. Let me get a bigger gun." At best "These bastards are tough. NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!"(assuming you are fighting Black Templars; Battle cry is subject to change according to appropriate Chapter).

[Iron_Within]

Quite a few people have done Alpha Legion now and these have gone the outflank route (which I love btw) and I think it can be
horribly abused (Outflanking Helldrakes....). I also think it misses from of the classic Alpha Legion from the novels. I’ve found the Alpha Legion harder to do effectively, without resorting to more rules than my other suggestions. But stuff it; I want them properly represented on the table top. So while their abilities are powerful they have one major downside.

 

ALPHA LEGIONS

Unless otherwise stated, Cultists, Khorne Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, Plague Marines and Noise cannot benefit from any of the Alpha Legion traits

 

Strike from all sides:

The Alpha Legions modus operandi is to strike from all directions with units hiding ahead head to lay traps. Up to D3 Alpha Legion Infantry, Jump Infantry or Bike units per FOC may elect to Outflank or Deepstrike (not including those that are already able to do so).

Operatives:

The Alpha Legion make frequent use of human agents and generally train them to a higher standard. One Cultists unit per FOC part of an Alpha Legion Detachment may be upgraded to Operatives, they benefit from all Alpha Legion Special rules and pick one of the following traits:

 

            Snipers
– All shooting attacks from this unit cause pinning and have the ‘Stealth’ USR.

            Saboteurs

– the unit is equipped with Krak Grenades save the Champion who is equipped
with Meltabombs

            Captives

– Members of this unit contain captive enemy combatants they are using as human
shields. Before shooting or charging this unit the enemy unit must first pass a
Leadership test, if they fail they must select a different target. This does
not affect units with the  Fearless USR.

 

I am Alpharius:

The Alpha Legion is trained from first indoctrination to be self-reliant and frequently use decoy Leaders. If an Alpha Legions Warlord is killed roll a D6, on a 4+ the Warlord was a decoy and the opponent does not receive the Slay the Warlord secondary objective VP.

Misdirection:

Best laid plans are often left in tatters when facing the Alpha Legion, hijacked communication frequencies and other esoteric tactics make properly identifying troops movements impossible.

Two Alpha Legion units once per game may ‘swap places’. To do this nominate the two units and remove all models save 1 from each unit from the table top, the units then Deep strike onto the other units position cantering on model remaining. An Independent

character with a unit nominated will deepstrike with them only if are also an Alpha Legionnaire.

Untrustworthy

No one truly knows whose side the Alpha Legion are on and history is replete with tales of the Legion turning on their erstwhile allies to serve their own ends. Alpha Legion cannot have ‘battle brother’ allies, all battle brothers armies are considered ‘allies of convenience’.

[Chronotonic]

wow

 

those Alpha Legion rules are well thought out...makes use of bikers, marines and cultist and if you wanted specialist troops enjoy the second FOC...

[Sanctimonius]

I'm liking those Alpha Legion rules, especially the I am Alpharius and Untrustworthy. The only issue I see is the captives rule for cultists - would this still affect the enemy if you're playing against Space Marines? Or Necrons? Or Tyranids?

[Iron_Within]

Yes, Yes and only if they are outside of Synapse range. While Necrons and Space Marines may seem odd, there are plenty of justifications for this. Firstly the Space Marines; these captives could simply be human populace of note (not always an issue yes), or severely injured scouts or Marines. Yes they are superhuman, but they are not invincible, so anything from being lobotomised to using funky warp powers could influence a Marine long enough to be captured and used for nefarious ends. Lastly, the big one; geneseed, in big jars; Marines would balk at destroying their genetic heritage to simply kill some lowly cultists better to take out the other enemy combatants and deal with them last so the Geneseed can be recovered safely. Now the Necrons. Necrons wouldn't give a dam about warriors no, but valuable tech from their lairs? Certainly. What happens if it's a vital component of a nasty Necron device that they want in tact? Would they risk blasting it to pieces? Lastly the Tyranids. Tyranids of the same Hiveship do not attack each other (against other hive fleets? Certainly), the forced leadership test excellently represents the confusion over pheromones of Tyranid organisms all over the Operatives. The Operatives are the mud covered Arnie in Predator, They have Pheremones, they've used dirty tricks taught to them by the Alpha Legion to reactivate an empty suit of Astarte armour, whatever the imagination has it.

In both the Space Marines and Necrons cases their high leadership shows they don't easily fall for the Operatives cheap trick and the lower Tyranid organisms are well represented by their poor leadership whereas the Hivemind just completely overrides such concerns

I can see I may need to reword the Captives bit to make it a bit more evocative in my writing.

Anyway I wrote a bit on the Word Bearers and I now hate it. Reason being it doesn't easily work and it isn't well representational of the Dark Miracle they receive. Also, after reading up on them a bit more, dark evil hymns calling upon their infernal deities seem to be the order of the day

WORD BEARERS

The Word Bearers fight battle reciting dark hymns throughout to the gods which have been incorporated into their battle tactics. These acts of devotion have differing effects throughout the battle. Each Hymn can be used once per game and lasts for one full game turn. No Cult units (Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines and Rubrics) or Cultists may benefit from the Word Bearer special rules.

Chorus of Hate:

This hymn calls upon their dark hate and rage, so the wrathful eyes of the gods use them as their holy weapons of Vengeance.

All Word Bearers gain the Furious Charge and Crusader USRs

Catechism of the Void

The guttural, Hymn, sang in the Dark Tongue speaks of the illusion of reality and it’s feeble nature in the face of the majesty of the

Warp. This weakens the layer between realities and allows the Word Bearers to benefit from the Realm of the Gods.

All Word Bearers have the Daemon USR. Those already with an invulnerable save have this improved by 1.

Sermon of Lorgar

The Sermon of Lorgar is one of the oldest and revered Hymns of the Word Bearers. This Hymn speaks of the universal truths of the Universe, how all must bend their knee to its true order and that the Bearers of the Word are it’s holy Instruments.

All Word Bearers gain the Stubborn and Feel No Pain (6+) USRs.

[Kol Saresk]

This is Forgeworld's take on the Night Lords.

 

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc69/bleachit54/nl4_zps2fb54fa5.png?t=1379082416

 

What do y'all think?

[Scribe]

I think its next to flawless for my vision/interpretation of the Legion. To the point where I may just take the full jump to 30K for my main playing.

 

Night Vision - Obvious.

From the Shadows - A throw back to their old pre-3.5 rules. (Oddly...runs into the Raven Guard theme in SM)

Blood and Dissent - Super fluffy.

Murder - Yep.

 

A pack of thugs. A Legion of gangbangers running on pack mentality. Kill the top guy, you shake up the whole command structure from top to bottom. Just like my World Eaters are Warriors before they are Soldiers, my Night Lords are killers, psychopaths.

 

I'm just working on the list, and pricing it out, but its going to happen. :]

 

If I want to game with them in 40K (which I will I am sure at Tournaments) they will be RG and really fit seamlessly into a WYSIWYG force.

[Kol Saresk]

You should check out the glimpse of the Rite of War in the video. It looks so awesomely delicious. And it also has a throwback to the 3.5 days. Makes me happy tanks can come in squadrons of threes.

[Gree]

The rules are cool, but then again 30k is not meant to be balanced against normal 40k codices.

[Kol Saresk]

True, the lists are not meant to be played against 40K codices. However, I could care less about the list as it is not relevant to the topic. What is relevant, are the rules. These are the Legion rules. At the very least, it can give us an idea of where to go with forming our own house rules for Night Lords in the Chaos Codex if we decide to walk down that path. These rules could be directly plastered onto a House-Rule Night Lords army. Just change the "Legiones Astartes(Night Lords)" to "Veterans of the Long War".

 

Right now, we have two bases on how to proceed. The 3.5 rules which gave Night Lords unrestricted access to Raptors(which is redundant now), traded two HS slots for one FA slot, Night Vision and Stealth. Or these, which give Night Lord squads +1 to Wound under certain conditions, makes them fall back at least +1 inch, Stealth, Night Vision and that when the Warlord dies, all units have to take a morale test. After choosing one, we can then alter it however we choose to in a fair, balanced and fluffy manner, or continue to try and make our own.

[Scribe]

You should check out the glimpse of the Rite of War in the video. It looks so awesomely delicious. And it also has a throwback to the 3.5 days. Makes me happy tanks can come in squadrons of threes.

Yeah I like that as well.

 

Praetor, a Moriat, Destroyers, Terror Squads (I dont know what they are other than the NL specific unit...), Tacticals, a Contemptor Talon, some support types, that Sicaran tank maybe just because it looks cool....

 

As for migrating these to 40K, I think it could be done pretty easily, really just straight across. You have a force that wants to come in and fight in numbers (Talent for Murder) but if things start to turn, they turn on you fast.

 

Its a bully army, but I am not sure the points costs of CSM allow it to really function in the same way. Lets not forget, a Legion tactical marine is only 10 points... :D

[Kol Saresk]

True. It does promote a habit of picking your targets, but that's pretty much common to all of 40K nowadays. Still, there's potential. Ten men assaulting a SM command squad only numbering five and with no Terminator armor suddenly gain a very healthy chance for killing them. Especially if say, there's a lord with a Blind Axe and the Champion has a power sword. AP3 and AP2 defeat the armor save and then a +1 on the Wounding, yowzah. Now that I think about it, if Sevatar gets into that kind of situation, he'd be killer beastly with his stats and his Dirty Fighter rule.

[Scribe]

Sev seems to be a beast all on his own.

I like the rules though, like most FW stuff its not OP, just fluffy. I think the negatives here actually probably outweigh the positives. Falling back further, and the old Vampire stability type rule, could be killer bad.

I like it though, its the exact kind of thing I have been asking for since 4th edition.

EDIT: If anything, since 40K doesnt have delivery options for CSM, I would give NL scout as well. Give Alpha Legion Infiltrate to differentiate, but 40K CSM need something (Storm Eagle, Drop Pods, Scout/Infiltrate) to make use of that Murder rule while balancing out those downsides a bit.

[Tzen]

I always wonder why no one ever asks Phil Kelly why he made such a colossal mess of our codex? Why was it rushed out, and why didn't it get worked on enough?

 

The book really does feel like the old codex, but with new psychic powers/special weapons (black mace et al) stapled into the book, and a few rules tossed in for the daemon engines.

 

Nothing is really that different.

 

Honestly, has no one had the chance to ask him at events what the hell happened with the train wreck we have for a codex?

[Scribe]

Likely, nobody has the balls to do so, or do so in a manner that doesnt cause the question to be dismissed. 

 

Or its 'this is our interpretation of CSM', and its a very bland answer.

[Tzen]

Given how the other codex books have panned out so far, its uninspired tat.

 

It's clearly a copy/paste job for most of it. If I had the cash to go to Games Day it would be the first question I'd ask, and I'd want a decent answer to. What's the worst they can do if we ask them an honest question.

[Scribe]

It really is, and the more I think on it. The fact is, its what we will have for 4+ years. I just dont think I can do that so FW it is. :]

[Tzen]

Well given how quickly they are putting books out at the moment, maybe we will get a new codex in about 2 years time. God knows we need one.

 

I did try giving making some rules up myself, given the nature of this thread but it just left a very bitter taste in my mouth. 

[Scribe]

Thats the thing. I wrote dozens of ways before the codex was even rumour's, to give back the legion feel. It wasnt hard, and many of us did it.

 

Anyone of those ideas could have been used, the fact is, they where used in the SM book!

 

I dont know. It defies reason to have the CSM book be released like this, it really just cannot be logically explained.

[Sanctimonius]

True. It does promote a habit of picking your targets, but that's pretty much common to all of 40K nowadays. Still, there's potential. Ten men assaulting a SM command squad only numbering five and with no Terminator armor suddenly gain a very healthy chance for killing them. Especially if say, there's a lord with a Blind Axe and the Champion has a power sword. AP3 and AP2 defeat the armor save and then a +1 on the Wounding, yowzah. Now that I think about it, if Sevatar gets into that kind of situation, he'd be killer beastly with his stats and his Dirty Fighter rule.

 

Sevatar has rules?

 

Yeah, I'm failing to understand just why our book is so bland. It's not awful, as far as rules go (imo, obviously). I think with a few tweaks we'd be competitive, but my concerns are mainly fluffy, and could have been easily remedied, as others have noted. It's a damn shame, we're not a tiny faction of GW, but it sure feels like we get a fraction of the love. 

 

Still, at least GW is trying their best to tailor the army to the players. Chaos is filled with bitter renegades harping on about the old days, it's nice that GW is trying to make us the same :)

[Lexington]

Yeah, I'm failing to understand just why our book is so bland. It's not awful, as far as rules go (imo, obviously). I think with a few tweaks we'd be competitive, but my concerns are mainly fluffy, and could have been easily remedied, as others have noted.

I dunno. There's valid complaints to be had with things in the Codex, especially in relation to certain other books (lookin' at you, Tau), but as far as representing Chaos armies in the way a Codex is supposed to, background-wise, it seems pretty solid to me. It represents the full spectrum of the faction, with sub-factions to be supported through supplements. That's the whole purpose of supplements.

 

And while, yes, I know, the common refrain is "but Loyalists got Chapter rules in their Codex," this actually makes total sense to me, given the difference between the two. Codexes represent an "average" force, representative of the faction as a whole, and while a Chaos army commonly mixes elements of different sub-factions, Loyalist Marines do not. They fight as a coherent, singular force that is modeled after the personal style of their genetic primogenitors. There's no "average" SM force that can be whittled away by a supplement - Loyalists almost always fight as a sub-faction. Their Codex reflects that.

 

This isn't to poo-poo the purpose of this thread - Legion rules are rad, and it stinks that we'll probably have to wait years for their release in full, so house rules seem totally appropriate in that context. I just think creating them shouldn't be in bitter reaction to the SM book. This is a difference that was handled the right way, at least from a design standpoint.

[Dammeron]

 

Yeah, I'm failing to understand just why our book is so bland. It's not awful, as far as rules go (imo, obviously). I think with a few tweaks we'd be competitive, but my concerns are mainly fluffy, and could have been easily remedied, as others have noted.

I dunno. There's valid complaints to be had with things in the Codex, especially in relation to certain other books (lookin' at you, Tau), but as far as representing Chaos armies in the way a Codex is supposed to, background-wise, it seems pretty solid to me. It represents the full spectrum of the faction, with sub-factions to be supported through supplements. That's the whole purpose of supplements.

 

And while, yes, I know, the common refrain is "but Loyalists got Chapter rules in their Codex," this actually makes total sense to me, given the difference between the two. Codexes represent an "average" force, representative of the faction as a whole, and while a Chaos army commonly mixes elements of different sub-factions, Loyalist Marines do not. They fight as a coherent, singular force that is modeled after the personal style of their genetic primogenitors. There's no "average" SM force that can be whittled away by a supplement - Loyalists almost always fight as a sub-faction. Their Codex reflects that.

 

This isn't to poo-poo the purpose of this thread - Legion rules are rad, and it stinks that we'll probably have to wait years for their release in full, so house rules seem totally appropriate in that context. I just think creating them shouldn't be in bitter reaction to the SM book. This is a difference that was handled the right way, at least from a design standpoint.

 

 

I'd agree in the sense that the codex certainly allows you to represent the spectrum of Chaos forces on the battlfield. The question is: does it do so adequately, or with even an iota of the evident thought and consideration that has been put into representing the various loyalist Space Marine factions? One only need look at attempts to field, for example, a Thousand Sons force from the current codex to answer that: not at all. I also feel you may be doing the GW design team a little bit too much credit in that you seem to suggest that the discrepencies between the loyalist codex and chaos codex are results of conscious design choice rather than simple negligence, which i would dispute profoundly, given the general lack of internal synergy evident within the codex; the units that simply do not function (Warp Talons, Mutilators, Possessed, Hellbrutes etc), the redundant options (The Mark of Tzeentch, VOTLW on Dark Apostles, The Icon of Flame, The Icon of Fear on Possessed and Raptors, The Dimensional Key etc) and those units which are so hideously broken they actually warp the wider dynamic of the game itself (Heldrakes). This clearly isn't a matter of design choice: it is a matter of the Chaos codex being the first out the gate for the new edition and therefore inevitably being somewhat stumbling, uncertain and inadequate. It is the same pattern GW have been following for years, since they clearly do not start out with a clear, over-arcing design philosophy, with defined intentions and parameters that EVERY codex released should adhere to.

 

The problem we face is not that chaos space marines and loyalist space are evidently different and should be represented differently in terms of their rules and army structure (totally agree on that regard); it is that the former is clearly shown a greater degree of attention, passion and respect by the company in general, whereas the latter has been in the toilet for the better part of a decade. It is entirely possible to make functional, extremely powerful army lists from the current codex (spam Heldrakes, Maulerfiends and Cultists; Plague Marines, Chaos Lord with MoN, Black Mace, Aura of Dark Glory and bike. You win). the problem is that we find ourselves once again at exactly the same position as we were back in the 4.0 days: so many redundant options and so many no-brainers that there are clearly optimal army lists and clearly abysmal ones, the latter sadly incorporating most of the types of armies that Chaos Space Marine players seem to favour (i.e. those composed of single cults or legions).

 

We also have the profound problem that, on a unit by unit basis, the Chaos Codex excels at nothing: all armies should be characterised by built in strengths and weaknesses: traditionally for Chaos, this has always been: highly elite individual units and models, limited by small numbers owing to prohibitive points cost. Right now, we have the prohibitive points costs in nearly every area, but none of the "elite" quality in comparison to our loyalist counter parts. Compare the fully tooled up Chapter Master to our Chaos Lord equivalent; Marneus Calgar to Abaddon in terms of the benefits they provide the wider army; Tiguruius to Arhiman in terms of psychic potential, Sternguard Veterans to Thousand Sons, Company Veterans to Chosen and so on and so forth.

 

Once again, we find ourselves middling through with a fairly lack lustre product; not something I'm willing to do for another edition, which is wehy my focus is now on the Fantasy Flight RPG systems, which are eminently superior in terms of the raw quality of the product.

[the jeske]

representative of the faction as a whole, and while a Chaos army commonly mixes elements of different sub-factions,

 

 Since the gav dex many people didn't like the focus on BL/BL-light and would rather a legion . The problem with the chaos dex is that , if one doesn't play a BL army one gets screwed . That would be as if the only way for space marines to play would be to take the same ultramarine cmd and support units in every list , be it RG/IH/WS or what ever.

[totgeboren]

For the WB I would rather see something like this.

 

No model bearing a Mark of Chaos or who is a Daemon of X may receive the Legion Traits of the Word Bearer, and to receive it, the model must be given the VotLW upgrade.

All models in a Word Bearers army must be given the VotLW upgrade if it is available.

 

Legion Trait: Word Bearers. The model gains the Zealot special rule. Any model that already has the Zealot special rule may count every round of close combat as the first round for the purpose of rerolling to-hit rolls in close combat, and this ability is conferred to any unit the model has joined.

In addition, any Chaos Icon carried by a Word Bearer allows friendly models with the Daemon special rule to deep strike within 6" without scatter.

 

The thinking here is that it makes it somewhat appealing to skip marks, but you must still pay for the VotLW to receive the traits, even though the benefits of VotLW is zero for a model with the Zealot rule. It also makes Dark Apostles somewhat more appealing for WB armies (it would still be a crap model for gaming purposes though), because he grants the rerolls every turn, and without something like that, a WB army would never include the most icon WB model at all.

Also, as the fairly expensive Icon of Vengeance is pointless for a model with the Zealot rule, it is a perfect candidate for promoting Daemon allies, but will still give a small benefit for WB armies constructed using only the CSM codex.

 

All in all, with no Marks or Cults, and paying the VotLW tax on everything, I don't think this version of the WB would be better than a CSM army made using the standard rules. In fact, if it came to a tournament, my money would still be on the PM+Heldrake+Oblits.

 

For the Night Lords, It's a bit tricky. In I think it was Savage Weapons, the NL were defeated by the DA, and some NL pointed out that they were not really cut out for large scale legion-on-legion warfare. The Fear rule is pretty pointless vs loyalists I know, but the NL are not good vs loyalists, and never have been. It's not their thing. They should definitely get some some sort of ambush rule, and I would like some sort of dagger-in-the-back rule, maybe to help them out in challenges, but their primary thing is something that isn't all that useful vs marines, and trying to force really useful rules vs marines for the NL feels a bit counter-productive as I would prefer legion rules to be mainly driven by the background, and less by the need to feel like we are on par with loyalists (which we are not).