We should make our own C:CSM Legion Tactics

[Sanctimonius]

It's not that NL aren't on par with loyalist forces. The point being made in that story is the NL aren't suited to the tactics being employed. They were never designed to be standing toe-to-toe, slogging it out until one side is dead. Leave that kind of warfare to the Death Guard, or the Iron Warriors, or the Imperial Fists. Of course the NL will lose if they don't fight to their strengths. instead they are about striking where not expected, stalking through the shadows, casting fear and apprehension into the hearts of their enemies. A fight is not just won on strength alone, and the NL exploit this fact more than most. 

 

Of course, it's hard to represent this aspect on the tabletop, but not impossible, as many of the contributors to this thread have displayed, and Forgeworld themselves. It just takes a little creative thinking to give the legions a bit of character. It's a good point about the supplements being used to create this character, but we still suffer from certain aspects just being unplayable in its current state - as Dammeron noted there are just too many aspects that clearly were not thought out from a design point of view, and as ever the Thousand Sons get shafted because they aren't sure what to do with them.

[Kol Saresk]

Lexington, you kind of have several stories mixed together in your bit about the Night Lords.

 

Savage Weapons was told only by the Dark Angels' point of view, specifically Corswain. In Soul Hunter, the Night Lords had started out fighting in the way a standard force of attrition fights: slugging it out. Later on, we see them doing their normal tactics. Since Mechanicus don't feel fear, they accomplished this by attacking leaders in order to create chaos among the troops.

 

And it'd be weird to use Savage Weapons as an example that the Night Lords couldn't fight another Legion since it was the Dark Angels who called for a retreat and it was the Lion who walked away with a slit throat.

 

Might use Prince of Crows, but that wouldn't really work either since the Dark Angels ambushed the Night Lords' fleet using an advanced xenos warp engine. And then later on, the Kyroptera were talking about striking part at the Dark Angels. And when they were ambushed again, Sevatar and a portion of the fleet remained behind and were fighting the Dark Angels.

 

Just because the Night Lords' tactics are more effective against mortals, it does not mean that the Night Lords are unwilling and/or unable to fight Astartes.

 

Otherwise Sevatar wouldn't had been wearing chains of Astartes skulls and Dark Angel helms in Savage Weapons.

[Brother Aiwass]

While it's true that we need a 6.1 ed codex, at least we have the new supplement coming soon.

 

Most of the suggestions given here are very nice and fluffy without being game breaking, and seems like an interesting community project.

 

On a side note, I really dismiss arguments like '30k armies are not balanced against 40k armies', just because, you know, it's GW we're talking about. They do not know the meaning of 'balance' and they've do not released yet a single codex that is balanced. They don't even try to.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, Forgeworld didn't design the 30K lists to be played against any 40K armies. Its a disclaimer notice plastered throughout the Heresy range and is even addressed in the FAQ for Betrayal. In a way, people are just repeating what Forgeworld has said.

 

From what I hear, the lists do fine. But that could mean anything.

[Sception]

The problem I have with chaos legion traits, and the difficulty ive had with implementing them in my own homebrew codex wishlists, is finding design space around the cult, mark, and any generic csm rules you would wanr to have.

 

I mean, how many distinct rules granting slight close combat edges can you come up with, that would allow the mark of khorne, the icon of khorne, the cult of khorne, and the legion of khorne to all do distinct yet meaningful things, while still leaving room for distinct wargear and gifts for khornate hqs, and still having melee upgrade options left over for non khornate chaos characters and units?

 

And how do you do all that without the most natural combination, world eater zerkers with the mark (duh) and icon, getting weighed down with so many special rules that they end up overpowered, or too expensive for their durability, or just too hasslesome to play due to all the different rules you have to remember?

[Scribe]

I started to work up a list at lunch actually, but in the end I simply couldnt be bothered, thats how 'over' CSM I am at the moment.

 

The concept however in mind.

 

Mark of Khorne - As current, Rage and Counter Attack.

 

Icon on Khorne - As current, adds a modifier to the Mark (Furious Charge, and Re-Roll Assault Range)

 

Berzerkers (Cult Level) - As current. We have the Mark, a portion of the Icon, and then Fearless and a Stat Boost. The Icon still has utility.

 

Legions - Force the MoK, and then add a further modifier on top that is unique. For example, 'units which benefit from Furious Charge also gain +1 Initiative' and 'Units from the World Eaters Legion are Fearless in Close Combat.'

 

What this would do is reinforce a particular army template (MoK across the board) make us value the Stick of Chaos that...for better or worse is an iconic item (I would change things a bit and allow for  summoning/teleportation off the stick) keeps the cult as something special (Fearless, +1WS, Furious Charge baked in) and then give a Legion twist that reinforces where that Legion is focused, and doesnt add a great deal more outside of that.

 

Is it a lot? Probably, but like you say, how else can you do it when some people just want Raptors with MoK, while others want to go full on crazy.

 

A World Eater Lord would then have Rage, Counter Attack, gain Furious Charge from being in a unit with the stick, and gain +1 Int on the charge.

 

A World Eater Marine though...Rage, Counter Attack, Furious Charge, +1 Int on the Charge, and Fearless in CC. A real beast at that point, with VotLW an option as well.

[Dam13n]

Still working on it, but from my v6.1 Homegrown Codex:

Chaos Marine Special Rules
- Champion of Chaos - Chaos Boon when kills an enemy character. If kills an enemy in a challenge may roll twice and pick one of the two results to apply.
- Veterans of the Long War - Stubborn, Hatred (Space Marines), Immune to Fear and Pinning (purchasable upgrade, will cost 1-3pts depending on unit)
(note: all CSM have Ld 9, Champions Ld 10)

Mark of Slaanesh - Fearless
Cults of Slaanesh:
- Noise Marines - +1 Initiative (enhanced senses), Sonic Weapons
- Pleasureseekers - Fleet, Hit and Run, Serrated Blades (Rending CCWs)
- Gluttons - Hatred (all), Feel no Pain

Mark of Khorne - +1 WS
Cults of Khorne:
- Berserkers - Rage, Furious Charge, may only use Pistol ranged weapons, access to Chainaxes
- Rampagers - Rampage, Counter Attack, no access to Heavy Weapons
- Skulltakers - Fear, Rending (Melee), rending strikes cause Instant Death

Mark of Tzeentch - 5++ save (improves existing ++ saves by 1). Psykers have 1 more power than normal for their mastery level.
Cults of Tzeentch:
- Rubric Marines - Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, May re-roll saving throw results of 1, lose grenades and no access to weapon upgrades (Characters exempt)
- Cabalites - Brotherhood of Psykers (Tzeentch, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyromancy), may take Sacrificial Daggers (wounds caused generate extra warp charge tokens for the following turn)
- Spirit Walkers - Inferno Bolts, Infiltrate, Stealth and Move Through Cover

Mark of Nurgle - Fear & Shrouded
Cults of Nurgle:
- Plague Marines - +1 T, -1 I, Feel no Pain, Blight Grenades
- Reapers - Hatred (all), Fearless and Rage
- Chem Troopers - Preferred Enemy (all), Rad Grenades, Plague Knives

I have started on Legion Traits as well, but they all need tweaking - a lot!

[Dravenguild]

Still working on it, but from my v6.1 Homegrown Codex:

 

Chaos Marine Special Rules

- Champion of Chaos - Chaos Boon when kills an enemy character. If kills an enemy in a challenge may roll twice and pick one of the two results to apply.

- Veterans of the Long War - Stubborn, Hatred (Space Marines), Immune to Fear and Pinning (purchasable upgrade, will cost 1-3pts depending on unit)

(note: all CSM have Ld 9, Champions Ld 10)

 

I would have to say that's a bit excessive, and though I would love to be exempt from so many leadership modifiers we're not  trying to be ATSKNF 2.0. I'd break it down like this: Chaos marines have built in hatred: Space marines  (Why wouldn't they? They've already defected) While Veterans of the long war grants stubborn. Still with the marines sitting at ld.9 and ld.10 champs.

 

Mark of Slaanesh - Fearless

Cults of Slaanesh:

- Noise Marines - +1 Initiative (enhanced senses), Sonic Weapons

- Pleasureseekers - Fleet, Hit and Run, Serrated Blades (Rending CCWs)

- Gluttons - Hatred (all), Feel no Pain

 

I like the first two, but you've gone overboard on the rest, rending CCWs is excessive (Lol slaneesh) rather make them Neuro-whips ala goodwin's old artwork and make them have either concussive or blind. Much more suiting. Also, I don't really follow your gluttons and hatred blurb, I think just sticking with feel no pain is appropriate considering they're hopped up on drugs all the time and are masochists, I doubt they really truly hate anything beyond eldar and space marines.

 

Mark of Khorne - +1 WS

Cults of Khorne:

- Berserkers - Rage, Furious Charge, may only use Pistol ranged weapons, access to Chainaxes

- Rampagers - Rampage, Counter Attack, no access to Heavy Weapons

- Skulltakers - Fear, Rending (Melee), rending strikes cause Instant Death

 

I like everything here except the instant death, I mean I wouldn't expect a large monstrous creature like the riptide to suffer instant death by conventional khorney means unless daemons or daemon weapons are involved.

 

 

Mark of Tzeentch - 5++ save (improves existing ++ saves by 1). Psykers have 1 more power than normal for their mastery level.

Cults of Tzeentch:

- Rubric Marines - Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, May re-roll saving throw results of 1, lose grenades and no access to weapon upgrades (Characters exempt)

- Cabalites - Brotherhood of Psykers (Tzeentch, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyromancy), may take Sacrificial Daggers (wounds caused generate extra warp charge tokens for the following turn)

- Spirit Walkers - Inferno Bolts, Infiltrate, Stealth and Move Through Cover

 

Liking most of this, not digging the sacrificial daggers though why not just have one be sacrificed per turn to increase a warp charge point? Or rather you can generate an additional WCP but take a leadership test after, suffering perils on doubles. Also, having infiltrate on ap3 weapons with 24" inch range probably is a bit over the top especially with stealth and move through cover, I'd either lose infiltrate or the latter two rules.

 

Mark of Nurgle - Fear & Shrouded

Cults of Nurgle:

- Plague Marines - +1 T, -1 I, Feel no Pain, Blight Grenades

- Reapers - Hatred (all), Fearless and Rage

- Chem Troopers - Preferred Enemy (all), Rad Grenades, Plague Knives

 

Nice and concise, but a few things stick out to me, rather than hatred and rage give reapers preferred enemy, and for the chem troopers the option for scout instead of preferred enemy. I don't know what the intention of the chem troops are but with just the grenades, a bolter and plague knives they seem pretty cool.

[Dam13n]

Cheers, the fluff for each cult explains why I chose their special rules.

However I didn't want to copy/paste it all, as it would've been too much text.

There are some balance issues that need resolving, though nothing is OP if it's priced correctly.

Edit - Fluff for the contentious cults:

- - - - -

Pleasureseekers are those among the hosts of Slaanesh who revel most in the pleasures of the flesh, for them every touch is ecstasy, every act is debaucherous, every experience is rapturous. In battle they wield horrific serrated blades and whips, all the better to infict delicious agonies on the flesh of their enemies.

Pleasureseekers have the Fleet and Hit and Run special rules. In addition all Pleasureseekers replace their close combat weapons with Serrated Blades.

Pleasureseeker Characters with access to the Melee Weapons section of the Armoury may replace their Serrated Blade as they would a Close Combat Weapon.

- - - - -

Gluttons are in many ways the inevitable and tragic end results of a lifetime in service to Slaanesh. Their emotions run dry and their senses dulled to all but the most extreme sensations, they live on desperately seeking to experience the pleasures their own bodies deny them.

Gluttons have the Hatred (all) and Feel no Pain special rules.

- - - - -

The Skulltakers are the executioners of Khorne and have perfected the art of the decapitating strike. They are therefore able to kill their enemies with a peerless efficiency. On the battlefield, their very presence fills the hearts of their enemies with fear, their armour is adorned with chains upon which hang the skulls of their victims and their chant of "Skulls for the Skull Throne" is often the last thing their enemies ever hear.

Skulltakers have the Fear and Rending (Melee) special rule. In addition any unsaved wounds they cause as a result of Rending Strikes will cause Instant Death to all but Monstrous Creatures.

(Added exemption for Monstrous Creatures as it did seem overpowered)

- - - - -

Cabalite Units are formed from the apprentice psykers that are so frequently drawn to the powerful Sorcerers who lead warbands dedicated to Tzeentch. Although their individual power is often either weak, untrained or untapped, together they combine their strength, unleashing powers that, as individuals, they would normally be incapable of controlling.

Cabalites have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. They generate 1 power from the Tzeentch, Telepathy, Telekinesis or Pyromancy disciplines. In addition, any member of the unit may take a Sacrificial Dagger from the Tzeentch Melee Weapons List in place of their Close Combat Weapon.

- - - - -

Spirit Walkers are made up of those warriors who have embraced the cunning and deceitful side of Tzeentch's nature, although not psykers they have embraced the warp, using it to disorient and confuse their enemies. They close on their enemies often unseen and unheard, waiting for the opportune moment to unleash their deadly cargo of Inferno Bolts on their unsuspecting prey.

Spirit Walkers have Inferno Bolts in addition to their normal wargear. They also have the Deep Strike, Stealth and Move Through Cover special rules.

(swapped Infiltrate for Deep Strike as it fits a little better and isn't quite so OP)

- - - - -

Reapers by contrast are lithe and cadaverous in appearance. Their flesh having been wasted away by the poxes that infest them. The result of this is a warrior devoid of any desire but to sate their eternal hunger and stem their bodies self-destructive affliction.

Reapers have the Hatred (all), Fearless and Rage special rules.

(by contrast is in reference to Plague Marines which are described above this entry)

- - - - -

Chem Trooper squads are the survivors of the Destroyer squads used by the Legions before the Heresy. A controversy waiting to happen, the Destroyer squads were armed with experimental toxic and viral weapons. A lifetime in service to Nurgle has turned these, already despicable warriors, into reprehensible monsters, to whom the infliction of pain and suffering is a calling, not a crime.

Chem Troopers have the Preferred Enemy (all) special rule and have Rad Grenades in addition to their normal Wargear. In addition all Chem Troopers replace their close combat weapons with Plague Knives for free.

Chem Trooper Characters with access to the Melee Weapons section of the Armoury may replace their Plague Knife as they would a Close Combat Weapon.

- - - - -