what to take from C:SM to support DA's

[marvmoogy]

I know this has kind of been mentioned in other threads, but I am starting this one to specifically look at what can complement us Codex: DA players, and NOT to start the slanging match of HERETIC BURN!

 

I know the below doesn't fit in with the allies matrix, but to be honest, I'm looking at this from a complementary point of view, not tournament lists etc

 

I've had a look through and, to fit in with me 'small, elite, massively overpriced C:SM list' I'm thinking of the following:

 

HQ - Chapter Master.  Looks pretty solid and, although the Relics section is a bit pants, they unlock Honour Guard which I like the look of.

Honour Guard.  As I say, me likes the look!

Vanguard - We lack a decent PA close combat squad.  I know, we have DWKs etc, but for the price, i think these pack quite a punch...and can take grav-pistols

Sternguard,  Loving the idea of 10 of these drop-podding in with a load of combi-gravs!

Ironclad Dread.  I'd take one to fill out the 3 elites choices and, well....we can't take one in our dex!

Assault Centurions.  Str 9, initiative attacks that are every turn, not just when we activate Smite mode

2x storm talons.  Cheap and well equipped (also would look cool 2 of these flanking a storm raven)

Dev Centurions.  I think we know why!

Hunter / Stalker.  Because our AA is woeful

Storm Raven.  Because it would look cool being escorted by 2 storm talons....and for 200 points, it's a very versatile unit.

 

So, what do you think of these choices?  What would you take from the new dex and why?

 

PLEASE GUYS!  No slanging match here...just positive, constructive comments about what's good and complimentary in the new dex.  

[Surrender_Monkey]

As discussed in another thread, White Scars allies looks like a good way of doubling down with a Ravenwing force. Not only do you get access to some of the desirable vanilla units like Storm Talons and Sternguard, but you get bikers which are arguably better than Ravenwing as troops, instead of having to take yet another boring Tactical squad.

 

Even if you're not going for White Scars traits I think a biker captain and bike squad is a good bet, we can get as many tactical squads as we like and aside from the grav weapons (which don't look like a great choice for tacticals) they're basically the same.

[facmanpob]

Definitely grav bikers for me. 4 bikes, 1 MMAB, 2 grav guns and a melta bomb for 174 points = Yes please!

[SRSFACE]

Ultrasmurfs, so you can bring Tigurius.

 

Aim for Endurance on Biomancy. If you get it on your first two rolls, aim for Telekine Dome or Gate of Infinity. Endurance is really the key, though. It should be fairly easy to get with rerolls on the psychic powers table.

 

Bring a 10 man tactical squad. If you want, you can still give a dude in the squad a heavy weapon. But, the idea is simply to get Endurance on said squad so they can move around near the banner of Devastation and still fire max range with all 4 shots you gain from Salvo. It turns my castle fire base into something mobile and that's frightening.

 

I think I'd bring a tactical squad with flamers or grav weaponry inside a drop pod and a devastator squad geared with a bunch of rocket launchers as the allied troops to try and capitalize on the Ultramarine tactics.

 

ALSO: I would easily paint them as Blood Ravens. It would be a Counts-As for Tigurius, but I actually think the UM tactics fit how they played in the video games. I also think that chapter would understand ours from the standpoint they've got pretty deep rooted secrets they don't want anyone else finding out. Plus, the dark red on bone color scheme would pop alongside our luminescent dark green.

[Tiger9gamer]

You know we can double the amount of Grav power with the new SM FAQ. 

 

With the new FAW, command squads can take special weapons. Yup. every member! 5 Grav rifles on 5 bikers are putting out 15 Gravity shots at 210pts. 5 more points than a 5 man RW command squad with champion, and putting out as many shots as those Centurions.

 

Now, we can use A divination librarian to boost this even more. Give that squad Prescience for TL goodness and blast anything. This feels almost as good as black knights.

 

if the Grav rifles are just out of range for the full squad, then shoot the libby's bolter to be able to reach 24".

 

Then bring khan and some biker troops.

[elphilo]

Ultrasmurfs, so you can bring Tigurius.

 

Aim for Endurance on Biomancy. If you get it on your first two rolls, aim for Telekine Dome or Gate of Infinity. Endurance is really the key, though. It should be fairly easy to get with rerolls on the psychic powers table.

 

Bring a 10 man tactical squad. If you want, you can still give a dude in the squad a heavy weapon. But, the idea is simply to get Endurance on said squad so they can move around near the banner of Devastation and still fire max range with all 4 shots you gain from Salvo. It turns my castle fire base into something mobile and that's frightening.

 

I think I'd bring a tactical squad with flamers or grav weaponry inside a drop pod and a devastator squad geared with a bunch of rocket launchers as the allied troops to try and capitalize on the Ultramarine tactics.

 

ALSO: I would easily paint them as Blood Ravens. It would be a Counts-As for Tigurius, but I actually think the UM tactics fit how they played in the video games. I also think that chapter would understand ours from the standpoint they've got pretty deep rooted secrets they don't want anyone else finding out. Plus, the dark red on bone color scheme would pop alongside our luminescent dark green.

Oh I like this, but lets tweak it. Instead of putting him in a Tactical Squad, lets get Centurion Devastator squad with grav weapons. Lets also put a DA Librarian on bike with PFG in that squad as well. That way the 3" bubble is a tad bit bigger and you don't have to make Tigurius roll on divination for prescience/Forewarning, our DA librarian will be getting prescience. Then have Tigurius roll for Gate of Infinity. So now you have a super mobile unit that gets a 2+4++ T5 majority that will DESTROY any unit it targets. If you're lucky with Tigurius' rolls, then you go for endurance so your Centurions will have It will Not Die and FnP, though having relentless on them isn't bad either since then they can overwatch.

[Brother dean]

White scars...   So my black and white marines on black and white bikes can have some white and black marines on white and black bikes....

 

And a hunter.

[Onisuzume]

Hm... Tyberos, assault termy troops (maybe), and an anti-air tank perhaps.

Although for that it might be easier to just go with a mortis.

[Terrahawk]

Hm... Tyberos, assault termy troops (maybe), and an anti-air tank perhaps.

Although for that it might be easier to just go with a mortis.

Yeah, agreed. If you are only looking to get some decent AA, better to take a Mortis or two than pay for the mandatory Allies HQ and Troops to get the AA tank.

Those tanks would look awesome in DA green though.

[Brother dean]

The real question is...  How many White Scars will be Allying in Black Knights and a libby?...  And do we declare them Diabolus Hereticus?

[Terrahawk]

The real question is... How many White Scars will be Allying in Black Knights and a libby?... And do we declare them Diabolus Hereticus?

I think it's a good idea to send some Black Knights around the Galaxy to keep the Inner Circle's eye on the Fallen.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Since all Space Marines can take a biker Captain, biker troops, and biker command squads, I'd be tempted to make a small "crusading" detachment to attach to my Ravenwing/Dark Angels. Templars have the maximum FOC mixup in the Space Marine Codex, and that makes them interesting, even if they're not particularly powerful.

 

Captain on bike, artificer and the burning blade, 5 man command squad, 5 grav guns, 5 bikers with dual grav guns, is 540 points.

[Catastrophe]

I'm rather paranoid about deep strike mishaps or bad scatter results so I'm looking at working in some scouts and scout bikers to my lists with their respective homer and beacon. The Legion of the Damned look like they'd be really fun to use too. Can't decide on their HQ yet. Probably a librarian of some form, easier to claim he suffered perils of the warp if he sees too much.

 

 

So my black and white marines on black and white bikes can have some white and black marines on white and black bikes....

That makes me think of Malal...

[march10k]

What to take from C:UM....hmmm.  I'm not sure we need anything that our codex doesn't have, so maybe it's a question of "what to we want more of than our FOC allows for?"  We can have more termies, bikes, speeders, and land raiders than we have points for, so I guess we're looking elsewhere.  HQ?  Do we want a third 100-200 point T4/5 single model?  Probably not.  Elites?  We generally don't use all three slots.  Fast attack?  I guess if we're trying for an air list, although I'd be more tempted by C:IG than C:UM.  The only place where I can see us running out of FOC and wanting an allied contingent to gain an extra slot is heavy support.  Vindie spam?  Four is better than three...two WWs and two dev squads?  I could get behind that.  And so on...

 

Then the question is "how do I go about choosing the required HQ and troops so as not to pay too much for stuff I don't need?"  That, of course, depends on the base list, but a bike character (artificer armor plus T5?  Yes, please!) could be a fun little one-man wrecking crew.  I wouldn't substitute a C:UM libby for one of our own, he wouldn't have access to the PFG.  On the troops side, a scoring bike squad would be nice in a non-RW list, and would also work well in a RW list.  I would definitely not be thrilled about adding a C:UM tactical squad to a DA list. 

 

Overall, I think, as others have mentioned, if you do ally in C:UM forces at all, white scars are the way to go, no matter what your base list looks like.  Scoring bikes that are equal or superior to the Ravenwing can fill the same role as the Ravenwing.  In fact, you could use the RW bikes that you already have in a "counts as WS" role.  So then, having unlocked C:UM elites, FA, and heavy choices, what else you take depends on your needs.  I would stay away from the shiny bits.  In every area except anti-air, we have stuff in our own codex that does the same thing as C:UM options, and I'm still not convinced that we need to spend points on dedicated anti-air weapons, I think dual-role weapons like assault cannons and flak missiles can be enough (not to mention my PGF/prescience lascannon devs).

 

As I mentioned before, when I'm not playing deathwing, I tend to fill all three heavy support slots and find myself wanting more, so, for me, I'd be looking to my allied contingent to provide that bonus heavy slot without overspending on the required HQ and troops, and ensuring that those two required elements bring real value instead of being "the cost of getting at that 4th FOC slot."  Specifically, I would want to be able to run my lascannon devs, a WW, and two vindies. 

 

Preferably, I would ally in some IG cannon fodder and a squadron of russes...but this is a thread about what to take from C:UM, so my choices would be a HQ beatstick on a bike, scoring bikes, and a vindicator.

[Master Antaeus]

You're missing a golden opportunity in the Dark Angeliest unit in the whole Space Marine codex: The Thunderfire Cannon. For the cost of 2 techmarines, you get a techmarine in full harness with a gun that basically needs a wheelbarrow to carry its around. Orks in cover? No problem. Reach out and touch. Pesky Wraithknight got you down? Delete his support. Grey knights just teleport into your face? 24 wounds later, check your deployment zone--it'll be suspiciously free of silver. Oh yeah, you also get a bolster defenses. Once your perfidious xenos opponent pulls him/herself together and actually devotes some resources to destroying your 4 shot terror weapon, they have to fight the techmarine manning the gun, along with the squad of scouts you likely put in cover above it.

(edited for points leak)

[Onisuzume]

 

 

So my black and white marines on black and white bikes can have some white and black marines on white and black bikes....

That makes me think of Malal...

 

 

I like the way you think.

Also, Malal for best chaos god, if any at all.

What to take from C:UM....hmmm. I'm not sure we need anything that our codex doesn't have

Anti-Air, in case FW isn't allowed.

[Brother dean]

 

 

So my black and white marines on black and white bikes can have some white and black marines on white and black bikes....

That makes me think of Malal...

 

I like the way you think.

Also, Malal for best chaos god, if any at all.

 

 

And I thought I was making an obscure reference to a banned joke not a Lawful Evil reference...

[Master Sheol]

a stalker or a thunderfire sounds good to me...

i would take also a scoring sternaguard unit with Kantor...

yes i am gonna ally with CF i think... scoring sternguard in DP with Kantor... one unit of cheap scouts with homer to call down DWA... one ST to provide cheap AA support (110 vs 180 of NJF) and a thunderfire... if not taking a ST i can take a stalker in HS for AA and a squad of bikers with grav weapons from FA...

 

DA and codex marines work good together...

[Onisuzume]

 

 

 

 

 

 

So my black and white marines on black and white bikes can have some white and black marines on white and black bikes....

That makes me think of Malal...

 

 

I like the way you think.

Also, Malal for best chaos god, if any at all.

 

 

And I thought I was making an obscure reference to a banned joke not a Lawful Evil reference...

 

 

Malal is everything but lawful.

Chaos turning against itself? How could one possibly call that lawful?

Also, Malal itself is a sort-of obscure reference.

[Brother dean]

Oi!  this isnt a theology thread!

 

Malal (iirc, it has been a while) Hates chaos and wants to make it orderly....   I would call him Lawful Chaotic but that cant exist...

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

It depends on the local meta. If you face monstrous creatures theres only one unit to take: Centurion Devastators with Grav Cannons and Grav Amps. For the rest of the meta you should be fine, unless you want a good flyer for points, then theres the SR or ST. A good list might be:

 

Chapter-Master

Honour Guard

Tac Squad in Rhino (to cover the Centurions)

Centurions

StormRaven (for HG)'

 

Although this is kicking out at practically 1000 points.

[marvmoogy]

I've been looking into Honour Guard and am a little disappointed....

 

Not in the rules...I think they are a really cool unit and, let's be honest....what kind of a 40k commander wouldn't go into battle in the 41st millennium without a retinue?

 

What I find disappointing is GW.  The Ultramarines HG look absolutely amazing.  I'm not a huge fan of the Smurfs, but the level of detail on the minis is immense and they really do look a 'cut above' the other veterans / command squads.  It's a shame though, that they are dripping in so much UM iconography.  Whilst the new Sternguard / Vanguard look to be great boxes with almost infinite combinations possible...they will still 'only' be Van/Stern guard.  

 

HG's need more detail but they'd be a pain to kit-bash to the same detail.

 

Come on, GW.....give us a generic HG box!

[Onisuzume]

Hm... is there any explanation on how those Grav weapons work against Gargantuan Creatures, given those Mass Points.

[marvmoogy]

I haven't got my codex to hand, sorry....I'll check it up tomorrow

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

do GC have armour saves? If yes, they will wound on that armour save.

 

Basically, Grav is the answer to all Monstrous Creatures: WraithKnights, Avatars, Daemon Princes and Riptides. Bring enough along to weaken those units and you can take them out with other guns with relative ease. Centurions with Cannons are the easiest and fastest way of slaughtering Monstrous Creatures.