Just noticed, WB recon in the BL supplement

[totgeboren]

Hey all! I was reading the BL supplement last night, and noticed a re-retcon in the book. From the old IA article for the WB;

 

"From the Daemon-world of Sicarus, Lorgar watches over his Legion, directing its myriad wars and engagements, orchestrating the vast corruption from within that the Imperium suffers at the hands of his innumerable cults and covens."

 

So here he is some grand spider in the web, which was good enough for me.

 

However, in Anthony Reynolds Dark Creed, it was said that after his ascension to daemonhood, "[Lorgar] has since isolated himself within the Templum Inficio on the daemon world of Sicarus where he has remained for thousands of years, forbidding anyone to interrupt his meditation." (Summary from Lexicanum.)

 

Here we get a new situation, which opens up for greater schism within the legion, as the WB 'thing' is a sort of disturbing loyalty to their Primarch. With him gone, different factions within the legion can more openly clash.

 

However, in the BL supplement, it says that "Abaddon has visited each of the six Daemon Primarchs in turn", and from Lorgar "the Warmaster
learned rare secrets of Daemon binding and the raising of vast Warp hosts from beyond the Eye."

 

So now it seems like Lorgar is not isolated in his temple any more, but actually receives guests and even acts as a teacher.

 

The background from Reynolds seems pretty hard to mesh with the BL background, though it could be that Lorgar had a vision of him coming, and came out of his isolation on his own when Abaddon was standing outside his door or something. That is, no one may disturb him, but he comes out or invites people in on occasion, when he as something profound or important he wishes to communicate to the galaxy?

 

I was just a bit surprised when I was reading, as for example Magnus refused Abaddons request for audience, and when I came to Lorgar I sort of assumed it would be the same (because of previous background), yet there he was, the Primarch who according to Dark Creed has remained undisturbed ever since he became a god/daemon in his own right.

 

So, what do people think of this? On one hand I sort of like it that the Daemon Primarchs are players within the w40k universe, but on the other hand it presents some noticeable problems. By their active inclusion in the w40k setting, the entire premise of the last WB book by Reynolds sort of fall apart. If Lorgar directs the WB, there is much less room for Erebus and Kor Phaeron to unleash their forces on one-another, especially as Lorgar seems less than thrilled about either of them at the end of Betrayer by A D-B, so that they would be allowed to tear his legion apart seems less than likely.

 

It is easier with factions like the DG and TS, in that there is nothing profoundly strange with Ahriman or Typhus going against their Primarchs and thereby producing new factions. But the WB are sort of different, as if Lorgar is active and controlling his legion, having different factions and hosts who have broken completely with the legions makes little sense. It becomes a bit like having a group of non-barbaric Space Wolves.

 

If Lorgar is secluded, any WB could receive visions from him/from daemons pretending to be him, and leading large parts of the legion in totally different, colliding directions. But if Lorgar makes the calls, they could just ask for his commands and that would be the end of it.

[Tenebris]

Same with Fulgrim who despite the ill blood between the two legions helped Abaddon in his quest. I think that the Daemon Primarchs are all still very much active and their hatred for the Imperium runs just as bright the one of their sons. While they are now locked into the Great Game as daemons it is not far fetched to see them in action more and more as the supplements will come out. I have always found strange that the very beings who fought on countless battlefields for and against the Emperor are now simply content to rule over their daemon worlds. Mortarion maybe but Fulgrim, Lorgar...their thirst for power was remarkable even when they were of the lords of the legions and now to simply stay cloistered in their palaces...not by a long shot I dare say.

 

And yes I loved the snippet of lore on the Daemon Primarchs, it gives me hope for when the vast armies of the Chaos God will be led in battle by this dreadful figures victory is assured. As for the fluff, same goes for Mortarion, Angron, Perturabo, they all helped Abaddon in a way or in another.

[A D-B]

It's not a new conflict. The Index Astartes article said Lorgar was an active, guiding presence telling the Legion what to do; the Dark series said Lorgar had been in seclusion for 10,000 years and had practically no interaction at all. So it's been the case that the two sources didn't match up since the very moment the second source came into existence. Which was, I think(?) about 5 years ago, now.

 

Secrets, lies, loose canon, different author interpretations, new lore. Choose your answer.

 

In this case, we know that the Daemon Primarchs have largely ascended past mortal concerns and into aetherial ones, concerned with the Great Game rather than the Imperium (unless that changes in future supplements, too), but that's such a vague description that it can mean anything.

 

I know when it comes to the Black Legion series, I've had plans for years about how Abaddon will enconter the Daemon Primarchs, and that may not match the Black Legion supplement, either. One of the things I like best about the supplement is the mythical tone of it. "And then Abaddon went to World X to find MacGuffin Y and perform Feat Z." It's consistently too questy and mythological to be literal, which is freeing for anyone who wants their army lore to exist in the wide gaps, and is convenient for, say, having to write a novel series. I'm a big fan of implication over lists of facts in any codex, mind you. 

[totgeboren]

It's not a new conflict. The Index Astartes article said Lorgar was an active, guiding presence telling the Legion what to do; the Dark series said Lorgar had been in seclusion for 10,000 years and had practically no interaction at all. So it's been the case that the two sources didn't match up since the very moment the second source came into existence. Which was, I think(?) about 5 years ago, now.

Well, I did start my post by saying I noticed a "re-retcon". Still I'm a bit surprised, because the Reynolds version of Lorgar being a non-player seems to work much better with the way GW have been pushing the Chaos Marines these last years. That is, the legions are no more and single-legion themed warbands (except BL warbands, but the BL are not single legion themed anyway) are the exception, not the norm.

If Lorgar is still the active leader of the WB, warbands like the Sanctified seem a bit strange. Of course, the WB gene-flaw of fanatical devotion and loyalty could as well be rewritten, though then parts of the inner struggle of Argel Tal in your The First Heretic and the way Calth was the inner purge of the WB would make little sense.

Or it could be that Lorgar has become a bit more liberal and tolerant, allowing his sons to worship in whatever way they please, up-to and including killing one-another on the scale of Hosts (like in Reynolds books).

Something I have been considering is that Kor Phareon is not a 'real' astartes, meaning he doesn't necessarily share the geneseed of Lorgar. This means he could very well feel that Lorgar has lost his way, and with him being free of the geneseed flaw of Lorgar, the WB of the Maelstrom could be a totally different faction of the WB as compared to the WB of the Eye (assuming there is little interaction between the Maelstrom and the Eye, allowing Kor to rule in Lorgars place without being overruled all the time). If Kor Phaeron and his WB figured out that Lorgar wanted them to die on Calth, they might be less thrilled about following his commands afterwards too.

However, since both him and Erebus sit on the Council of Sicarus (how Kor commutes between the two has never been explained) would make that less than likely. There a rewrite of the background would definitely be in order I think though. The WB of the Maelstrom being outcasts from the WB, giving rise to all sorts of WB warbands, whilst the WB of the Eye still have Lorgar to unite them. Win-Win, as those who want the old WB Legion gets that, and those who want more independent WB warbands get that too.

Anyway, yes, I agree that the rise of Abaddon in the supplement felt a bit like a MMORPG character levelling up, but on the other hand, the layout of those games is very deliberate in that it makes the game feel as you said 'mythological'. There is probably a lot more to these things, and lots of room for fleshing out the background (which I look forward to you doing).

[Iron_Within]

I think the isolation thing is still valid. What you have to accept when reading 40k fluff IMO is that all of it, no matter what, is a matter of perspective of the characters involved.

 

So in the IA background one can argue this is from an outsiders view. Lorgar is still their; the Word Bearers still praise his name so he could be directing in one way or another. The WB could be receiving visions from what they think is Lorgar but also know that he has in fact been in isolation for thousands of years. Finally though, Abaddon visited Lorgar, so it can be assumed (not having read the whole fluff) that their is a way unknown to the WB to get access to Lorgar, or Lorgar may have been ordered to teach Abaddon by the gods who just appeared in his sanctum. The initial meeting may have been, tense to say the least.

 

The Daemon Primarchs I think as previously mentioned are trapped in the Great Game; they are no longer leaders of men in that sense and it's almost impossible for them to leave the warp. The Long War for them is over in a way as they are slave to the gods.

 

In terms of the WB fighting etc. and Lorgar's opinion of it, in short I doubt he no longer cares. It's all part of the Great Game of Chaos, everything born will die in the mortal world so the important thing is they die in service of the gods, which they are. Lorgar was pretty sanguine about having his own legion killed at Calth even before Daemonhood, and he had seen that one coming in visions.

[A D-B]

 

It's not a new conflict. The Index Astartes article said Lorgar was an active, guiding presence telling the Legion what to do; the Dark series said Lorgar had been in seclusion for 10,000 years and had practically no interaction at all. So it's been the case that the two sources didn't match up since the very moment the second source came into existence. Which was, I think(?) about 5 years ago, now.

 

Well, I did start my post by saying I noticed a "re-retcon".

 

You totally did. I was just downstairs, staring dull-eyed and deadline-faced out of the window while waiting for the kettle to boil, and thought "...wait, he said..." and came back upstairs to edit my reply, but you'd already made it in first.

 

Sorry for missing that, Totes. My mind is a bajillion miles away right now, between the toddler and The Talon of Horus.

[PiXeLonPiCNiC]

Ops! Nm

[Tzen]

I don't really see why the two don't work together. Lorgar by now is pretty powerful, he could have remained in seclusion, whilst speaking to Abaddon psychically. The whole story could be that Abaddon fights the Word Bearers to gain access to Lorgar, and Lorgar just turns up to Abaddon as a vision. Leaving the Word Bearers confused to why the Black Legion have retreated, but content that their Primarch has been left alone to his meditations.

 

I'm not saying this is definitely the case, just doesn't take much imagination to think of a way it may have happened. It also ties in to Lorgar being displeased with his sons, and trying to distance himself from the council on Sicarus. 

 

Just throwing ideas out there!

[the jeske]

He would have to gather a rather large force to do that . I wonder how it worked with Turboman , the old fluff said he is beyond paranoid and doesn't let anyone  non IW anywhere near the constantly upgraded super demon fortress/planet. But I guess we will see tons of stuff like that making older fluff  even stranger to understand . The WB infighting with Lorgar full active makes little sense .

[RolandTHTG]

Is the actual Dark Creed fluff "In seclusion for 10,000 years" or "has since isolated .... for thousands of years"? Because that second one is still compatible with an early Abaddon  visit, before Lorgar completely isolates himself.

[The Colossus]

Sorry for being an ignorant legionnaire, but who is the sixth primarch?

I can recall the names of the IW, EC, DG, TS and WE ... Kurze and Horus are confirmed dead, so it is a hint that either Alpharius or his twin is still around and kicking? Or am I getting ahead of myself?

The very chap this topic is focussing on- Lorgar.

[Wade Garrett]

Anyone else think the "Dark" series made Erebus look like a complete tool, even by the low standards he's already set in the heresy novels?

 

"Well, we got who knows how many Word Bearers killed, lost almost irreplaceable warships, destroyed the Necron Plot Device, and utterly failed to capture the Boros Gate. GLORIOUS VICTORY! PROMOTIONS FOR ALL THE SURVIVORS!"

[HJL]

Well Erebus is the greatest tool of all time. When you think youve nailed down the limits of his toolishness, he does something so utterly wretched that you have to add a new level to your scale.

 

Erebus wouldnt just steal candy from a baby. He would steal the candy, sacrifice the mother and feed the child to a daemon for a slight personal gain.

[Tzen]

They can always build more ships!

 

Create more Word Bearers!

 

I don;t get the Erebus bashing, he is an ace character and pretty much insane. He's great, he does everything a bad guy should do!

[nurglez]

He needs to have a moustache, so he can twirl it.

[Wade Garrett]

They can always build more ships!

 

Create more Word Bearers!

 

And they will never get another of the one of a kind Necron Plot Devices that Erebus had Marduk squander so he could win this little game of power politics with Kor Phaeron.

 

A victory that he himself admits will make no difference in the long run, as he and Kor have done this dance before and will undoubtedly do it again.

 

So...minor gain against Kor that does nothing but stroke Erebus's own ego > Chance to win a decisive victory in the long war.

 

TOOL.

 

"This is why we always lose. The Imperials don't get in each others way."

Sevatar, First Captain of the Night Lords

[Tzen]

But you just explained what a maniac would do in that situation. Erebuz put himself first and his own position of power before the rest of the legion. He's been doing that since the heresy (as shown by the books) and has continued to do it. 

 

I'm not sure what kind of bad guy you are after. It's never real been about principles or ideals for Erebuz, it's about making sure he remains number one. I'm not so sure many Chaos Marines fight the war on anything but self serving reasons any more. They worship unfathomably evil beings, that sort of stuff rubs off on you, your perspective can get distorted by it.

 

For me, the guy is everything you want in a villain. Great character in my opinion, Chaos needs more of them!

[Wade Garrett]

Not so. Erebus in the Heresy was completely devoted to an ideal: the complete triumph of the Primordial Truth and the submission of mankind to the Powers Behind All.

 

His actions in Betrayer weren't driven by personal sights, but (in his mind) a necessary duty of his role as Destiny's Hand.

 

As for what I'd like to see from him:

A return to the days of The First Heretic and Horus Rising when he was a diplomat, skilled warrior and scholar in addition to being Evil with a capital EEEE-VUHL!

 

A 2-D caricature who lacks even the virtues of courage or pragmatism , whose short sighted narcisistic backstabbing is more dangerous to his own side than the Imperium could ever be? We already have one of those, his name is Fulgrim.

[Urauloth]

I honestly don't care much for the dark creed series, and I'd much rather see Lorgar actually do something, so basically I'm all in favour of this.

[Scribe]

More Daemon Primarch action in the fluff would be fantastic.

[Lexington]

Is the actual Dark Creed fluff "In seclusion for 10,000 years" or "has since isolated .... for thousands of years"? Because that second one is still compatible with an early Abaddon  visit, before Lorgar completely isolates himself.

IIRC, it's the latter - though I should note I've not read the book that's in, but have seen the quote about it a few times.

 

Tho, really, even if Abbadon did come a-knockin' after Lorgar had locked himself away, it's not necessarily a full retcon. Imagine if Abbadon showed up, and the door to the Templum Inficio, closed for thousands of years to even Lorgar's own children...suddenly opened. Moments like that cause schisms.

[A D-B]

 

Is the actual Dark Creed fluff "In seclusion for 10,000 years" or "has since isolated .... for thousands of years"? Because that second one is still compatible with an early Abaddon  visit, before Lorgar completely isolates himself.

IIRC, it's the latter - though I should note I've not read the book that's in, but have seen the quote about it a few times.

 

Tho, really, even if Abbadon did come a-knockin' after Lorgar had locked himself away, it's not necessarily a full retcon. Imagine if Abbadon showed up, and the door to the Templum Inficio, closed for thousands of years to even Lorgar's own children...suddenly opened. Moments like that cause schisms.

 

Okay, I'm more awake now. A whole freaking day later.

 

I love that idea, Lex. There are loads of possibilities for this. 

 

Without going into spoiler territory for any potential novels, one of the things that's heavily in Abaddon's favour is, well, who he is. Depending on when he goes to the Daemon Primarchs (as in, at what point in time) as well as depending on the reasons he goes to them, the results will be vastly different. An Abaddon already given the Mark of Chaos Ascendant and at the head of the Black Legion will be a markedly (no pun intended) different 'guest' than one fresh from the bones of Horus's killed clones at the end Book 1. 

 

Part of the insane scale on offer here is that, as time passes, you can't just ignore Abaddon in the Eye. In part of making my mega-archive of Chaos Marine lore, John French and I have been chewing over a lot of internal politics in the Eye of Terror - specifically as it relates to Ahriman and Khayon (the latter being the former Thousand Son and main character of the Black Legion Series) meeting up again in the future. And a lot comes down to the fact that it'll be a case of almost unbelievable scale. The Black Legion are... 

 

Well. Obviously, towards the end of M41, Abaddon is certainly The Biggest Deal. By miles. And miles. And miles.

 

"Please go away," said Erebus. "Lorgar isn't receiving visitors right now."

 

"Cool," replied Abaddon. "Say, here's an idea. The uncountably vast numbers of Chaos Marines in orbit are, like, my boys. So are the hundreds upon hundreds of warships they're sailing on. So open the door, or I delete this little planet from the face of the canon."

 

"You're not that powerful. Even with all those numbers..."

 

"My flagship, on its own, is called The Planet Killer. So... guess again."

 

Erebus smirked, the way he always smirked in the Heresy series. You know the way I mean; the way that annoys people. He totally did that. 

 

"Something funny, Ebbs?" Abaddon asked.

 

"I heard Magnus refused to see you."

 

"Magnus is certainly spreading that story, isn't he? I wouldn't book any holidays to the Planet of the Sorcerers for a while, though. It's all a bit... orbital bombardish over there."

 

"If you try that here," replied Erebus, "Lorgar will simply be banished and reform in the Warp, as he's a daemon now."

 

"I'll tell you what. Seeing as I'm the Champion of Chaos and have famously gathered more influence and power here in the Eye than any of the Daemon Primarchs can even dream, you can either open the door, or I can go call up several hundred sorcerers to bind Lorgar and drag him before me in aetheric chains. How does that sound, chief?"

 

"I'll... I'll open the doors."

 

"Yeah, you do that."

[Dammeron]

I think an even more interesting detail in the supplement is that Abaddon now commands the loyalty of Be'lakor. Anyone remmeber this guy? he only happens to be the first mortal ever elevated to immortality as a daemon prince: a creature powerful enough to actively break away from the Chaos God's authority for a limited time and launch his own crusades within the Warhammer world (Storm of Chaos campaign). Okay, it's only a throw away line, but it is fun to consider :)

[Gree]

They can always build more ships!

 

Create more Word Bearers!

Creating new Astartes is never an easy or quick process. Gene-seed is an enormously valuable and precious resource even for the loyalists. For the traitors, gene-seed is typically even more precious due to the mutating effects of the Eye.

 

Erebus wasted thousands of hard to replace Astartes,equipment, and warships for what amounts to a round of petty politicking with Kor Phaeron.

As for what I'd like to see from him:

A return to the days of The First Heretic and Horus Rising when he was a diplomat, skilled warrior and scholar in addition to being Evil with a capital EEEE-VUHL!

 

A 2-D caricature who lacks even the virtues of courage or pragmatism , whose short sighted narcisistic backstabbing is more dangerous to his own side than the Imperium could ever be? We already have one of those, his name is Fulgrim.

I'd say that the Word Bearers as a whole come across as cackling, mustache twirling villains in the Heresy, or at least that's my perception. You got books like Fear to Tread, Battle of the Abyss and Deliverance Lost were the WB basically show up as rather one-note villains.

 

Actually, to be frank, Argel Tal and Lorgar are the only Word Bearers I really like and even then Lorgar himself comes across as a deluded fool much of the time.

[Phoros]

"Please go away," said Erebus. "Lorgar isn't receiving visitors right now."

 

"Cool," replied Abaddon. "Say, here's an idea. The uncountably vast numbers of Chaos Marines in orbit are, like, my boys. So are the hundreds upon hundreds of warships they're sailing on. So open the door, or I delete this little planet from the face of the canon."

 

"You're not that powerful. Even with all those numbers..."

 

"My flagship, on its own, is called The Planet Killer. So... guess again."

 

Erebus smirked, the way he always smirked in the Heresy series. You know the way I mean; the way that annoys people. He totally did that. 

 

"Something funny, Ebbs?" Abaddon asked.

 

"I heard Magnus refused to see you."

 

"Magnus is certainly spreading that story, isn't he? I wouldn't book any holidays to the Planet of the Sorcerers for a while, though. It's all a bit... orbital bombardish over there."

 

"If you try that here," replied Erebus, "Lorgar will simply be banished and reform in the Warp, as he's a daemon now."

 

"I'll tell you what. Seeing as I'm the Champion of Chaos and have famously gathered more influence and power here in the Eye than any of the Daemon Primarchs can even dream, you can either open the door, or I can go call up several hundred sorcerers to bind Lorgar and drag him before me in aetheric chains. How does that sound, chief?"

 

"I'll... I'll open the doors."

 

"Yeah, you do that."

 

That's perfect. If this isn't canon, I'm not buying any of the Abaddon books.