Nakuth Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Greetings, brothers. I apologise to the mods if this is the wrong place for this, but it felt right, and hopefully the Liber Heraldry Department can provide me with some assistance. I recall reading, or being taught (back during the days of 2nd edition) that, in heraldry, a weapon/weapons pointing downards represented 'peace' or a peaceful nature, and a weapon/weapons pointed upwards represented the opposite. Now, my questions are as follows: Is this correct? If so, is there any reference material for this? (Wikipedia was uncooperative). If so, why would GW use the 'peaceful' version of weapons as heraldic devices for SM chapters? It just doesn't make sense. This is more to satiate my curiosity than anything, but I also have some ideas for personal heraldry of some SM characters, and want to know if I've interpreted the above correctly. Thank you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Greetings, brothers. I apologise to the mods if this is the wrong place for this, but it felt right, and hopefully the Liber Heraldry Department can provide me with some assistance. I recall reading, or being taught (back during the days of 2nd edition) that, in heraldry, a weapon/weapons pointing downards represented 'peace' or a peaceful nature, and a weapon/weapons pointed upwards represented the opposite. Now, my questions are as follows: Is this correct? If so, is there any reference material for this? (Wikipedia was uncooperative). If so, why would GW use the 'peaceful' version of weapons as heraldic devices for SM chapters? It just doesn't make sense. This is more to satiate my curiosity than anything, but I also have some ideas for personal heraldry of some SM characters, and want to know if I've interpreted the above correctly. Thank you. 1. I have no idea. 2. First of all, they don't exclusively. Case in point, have a look at my icon. That's the heraldry of the Knights of the Blood. They are most certainly not a peaceful chapter! I guess their heraldry reflects this... Anyway, more importantly, there are a couple of reasons I could imagine that weapons-facing-downwards symbolism is sometimes used for marines. Perhaps its meant to reflect the way that the Astartes are (at least, they're supposed to be) leashed to the needs of humanity (the Emperor's last gift to the species he failed...). Less "we are peaceful" and more "our warlike natures are controlled." Or maybe you're over-thinking this. GW is an ancient company. They have been through a lot of different creative moods over the years. Sometimes a downward-facing sword with a stylized break in the middle is just a downward-facing sword with a stylized break in the middle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3456756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakuth Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 1. I have no idea. 2. First of all, they don't exclusively. Case in point, have a look at my icon. That's the heraldry of the Knights of the Blood. They are most certainly not a peaceful chapter! I guess their heraldry reflects this... Anyway, more importantly, there are a couple of reasons I could imagine that weapons-facing-downwards symbolism is sometimes used for marines. Perhaps its meant to reflect the way that the Astartes are (at least, they're supposed to be) leashed to the needs of humanity (the Emperor's last gift to the species he failed...). Less "we are peaceful" and more "our warlike natures are controlled." Or maybe you're over-thinking this. GW is an ancient company. They have been through a lot of different creative moods over the years. Sometimes a downward-facing sword with a stylized break in the middle is just a downward-facing sword with a stylized break in the middle. Your last point makes sense. It is just as likely that they went with such a design simply because it looked good. I'll admit that I can't imagine the Dark Angels chapter badge looking as good with an upwards-thrusting sword. The bit about being leashed to the needs of humanity is an interesting way of looking at it, and could actually lead to some other interesting heraldic devices. Lastly, I probably worded my original post poorl. I am aware of some chapters with upwards-pointing weapons, such as your own, I was thinking more of chapters such as (IIRC) The Sable Swords, who have a pair of crossed swords, pointing downwards (incidiently, this is stated as also being used to reference battle sites, casualties, and similar, according to Wikipedia). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3456784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 The rules of heraldry in the fictional Imperium of the 41st millennium aren't necessarily the same as the rules of heraldry established in late medieval Europe. In fact, based on the examples available, we can say with complete certainty that they're very, very different. I don't think there was any such hard and fast rule about which way a sword was pointing in medieval Europe anyway, and often a charge of a sword has nothing to do with war or peace at all - it can represent authority, or be a reference to St Paul, for example. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3456840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Cambrius Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 *A wild Liber Heraldry Dept. Liberite appears, putting on his hat!* I think Lucien Eilam and Electric Paladin have summed it up best, the 41st millennium is indeed a much more different place than when a lot of these heraldry symbolisms and rules were first instigated in the Medieval period of Europe. A lot of the symbols are down to "Rule of Cool", rather than their basic symbolism. :) Cambrius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3457962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakuth Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Thanks brothers, my curiosity has been satisfied on this topic. Now comes the fun part of working out what to do for the heraldry itself. I'm thinking an upwards-pointing spear, at an angle behind a shield with a skull on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3458064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Cambrius Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I'd personally put the skull in front of the spear and shield, so you can see it clearly. :) Looking forwards to seeing your creation! Cambrius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3458067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I'd personally put the skull in front of the spear and shield, so you can see it clearly. Looking forwards to seeing your creation! Cambrius I think Sgt. Cotys means a shield decorated with a skull with a spear behind it. In other words, you're both saying the same thing. I didn't know that there was a symbolism behind the direction of weapons in heraldry. Very interesting! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3459198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Direction, position, color ... well just about everything has meaning in heraldry, but like Ace I doubt GW has really knows all the ins and outs. Heralds were very prized in the old days for being able to design and read others designs and tell what they meant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3459357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakuth Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 I'd personally put the skull in front of the spear and shield, so you can see it clearly. Looking forwards to seeing your creation! Cambrius I think Sgt. Cotys means a shield decorated with a skull with a spear behind it. In other words, you're both saying the same thing. I didn't know that there was a symbolism behind the direction of weapons in heraldry. Very interesting! Ace has the right of it, Brother Cambrius. We were both saying the same thing. In all honesty, I may have been mistake with regards to symbolism of the direction of weaponry in heraldry, but it is a vague spark of memory from one or two days of History lessons back in the mid-90s. Even if I'm wrong, it doesn't mean I can't attach such symbolism to any heraldry myself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3459564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zend0g Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 If you have access to a vector art program like Illustratorm, you can print out your own decals. Vector graphics ensure that you won't have to deal with pixelization. However, the shoulder pad isn't very large. So you want to make sure that your heraldry doesn't get too complex or the details will just be too hard to pick out with the naked eye. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3459739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakuth Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 If you have access to a vector art program like Illustratorm, you can print out your own decals. Vector graphics ensure that you won't have to deal with pixelization. However, the shoulder pad isn't very large. So you want to make sure that your heraldry doesn't get too complex or the details will just be too hard to pick out with the naked eye. Thanks, zend0g. I was actually planning on sketching it out msyelf first, and then having a crack at a mix of free-hand & decals, although I'm not aware of any shield decals, but there arep lenty of skull ones. An alternative design would be a simple skull & spear. For reference, the heraldry is to indicate that this captain (yet to be named) is often the speartip of assaults for his chapter. I'm thinking of him being the 7th Company Captain. I know that is supposed to be the Lord Executioner, but I prefer my idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3459789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Skull and spear (tip?) designs ... hmmm ... USMC 2d Reconnaissance Battalion (yes, that red shape is a spear tip) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/2d_reconnaissance_battalion_insignia.svg US Special Operations Command (a spear tip that is more clearly a spear tip) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/United_States_Special_Operations_Command_Insignia.svg You may also want to check out http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Heraldry/ArmyDUISSICOA/ArmyHeraldry.aspx to see other uses of spears and speartips in U.S. military heraldry (I think that is Army-specific, to include the National Guard and Reserves, but it should be varied enough). My quick Google search didn't yield any examples of decent English heraldry, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that there was actually some good British stuff. I did, however, find several variations on this design: http://static8.depositphotos.com/1003238/967/v/950/depositphotos_9673383-Skull-in-helmet-crossed-spears.jpg My personal recommendation is to use only two of the three elements - skull, spear, shield. Having too many elements in the Chapter badge gets cluttered and doesn't work as well on the miniatures. It can be done, but must be done very cautiously in order to be both effective and clear. I would go with the skull and spear (either tip or crossed spears) and add the shield only when drawing the formal Chapter badge (that is rarely used on models, but might appear on banners and such). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3459997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakuth Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Wow, thanks for that, Brother Tyler. That first one is certainly interesting. The image has gelled in my mind a little further, and it will be just the skull & spear. Most likely on a (diagonally) checked field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279972-a-heraldry-question/#findComment-3461067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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