Gentlemanloser Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Although I've not had the chance to read it yet, it seems the new Space MArine Codex has just as many stories, if not more, of Space Marines facing down and defeating Daemons. Yet we're still led to believe no one knows about them, the glorious exploits of Marines defeating them, and the Grey Kngihts in general. The stance that those who encounter the Dameonic are mindwiped, and that Chapter 666 is shrouded in secrecy really just doesn't hold weight any more. It's not internally consistent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 The stance that those who encounter the Dameonic are mindwiped Space Marines are mindwiped to preserve the secrecy of the Grey Knights, not the existence of Daemons: In such circumstances, the Inquisition must take drastic measures to ensure that the secrecy of the Grey Knights is preserved. If Space Marines encounter Daemons and there are no Grey Knights involved, of course they're not mindwiped. The general population of the Imperium, Imperial Guard, etc. are typically killed if they encounter Daemons, but that has nothing to do with Space Marines fighting them. Space Marines are almost mythical to the average Imperial citizen, they won't hear the details of their battles in anything but the broadest, legendary sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3456823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Right, I believe Lucien's spot on. The Imperium at large is kept ignorant of the existence of the demonic (by, for example, exterminatus or mass mind-wipe) but that's hardly appropriate or even possible with the independently managed Space Marine chapters. They need to fight their heretical fail-brothers from time to time, and that's invariably going to involve demons. Mind wipes for space marines are more for their own safety and are done in a way to be more selective, leaving the marines with their own chapter-centric knowledge and training. (It's not like the mercilessly efficient full wipes colonists might get...and might even survive.) It's not clear to me that every chapter even needs to submit itself for selective mind-wipes. The Legions basically answer to nobody, but chapters from subsequent Foundings are another matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3459328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Sorry boys - its never been that watertight an idea. Certainly nothing new about people knowing about them in the new codex. 2nd ed fluff Logan Grimnar at Armageddon, as a new Chapter Master he knew about the Grey Knights and had actually called for their assistance and then held them inreserve till Angron showed his face. Blood Angels 5th Ed codex: Dante sends the Sanguinary Guard (or at least a detachment of them) to fight alongside the GK's against a Daemonic Incursion (Ka'Banda i think). They do so and the victory is celebrated on their return after the successful conclusion of the battles. Both of these couldnt have happened without some fairly detailed awareness of Chaos/Daemons and the GK's. Unless there is an Inquisitorial ship that does the rounds of new chapter masters of all the chapters telling them things like "By the way - Chapter 666 are really really really good against Daemons - in fact if they ask you to do anything, just do it" then there must be some awareness in at least the higher echelons of chapter command structures about who/what the GK's are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3459466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Both of those chapters you mentioned - BA and SW - are original legions; they have way more power and influence than a typical chapter of Space Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3459602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Both Logan and Dante are the Chapter Masters of 1st Founding Chapters, so I would expect them to know about the Grey Knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3459868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 Let's expand. Then you'd expect the Chapter Masters of *every* first founding Chapter to know of the GK. How about those First founding Chapters that are close to thier second founding sucessors, like the Dark Angels of Imperial Fist? We'd expect the Chapter Masters to talk to each other. So basically, unless you're an nth founding billy no-mates chapter in some backwater of the Imperium, we'd expect the Chapter to have knowledge of the Grey Knights and the Daemonic Adversarys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3459885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I don't see why having most Chapter Masters know about the Grey Knights is such a bad thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3459889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 The way I've always seen the issue is that all chapter masters (and possibly the members of the chapter command/Chiefs of Staff) know of the Grey Knights. They are soldiers of proven valour and veterans of numourous campaigns. Not only have they shown their dedication and worth, they've probably fought Chaos-aligned forces enough to prove a minimal ability to resist temptation. It's only their core troops that undergo mindwipes. Personally, I think a better idea to replace this fluff would be to have the Grey Knights psychically probe important individuals such as Space Marines for taint themselves. Those who pass the test retain their memories in order to use them in future battles. Those who are corrupted are quickly put to the sword by either/both the Grey Knights and their own organisation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3459942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 The way I've always seen the issue is that all chapter masters (and possibly the members of the chapter command/Chiefs of Staff) know of the Grey Knights. They are soldiers of proven valour and veterans of numourous campaigns. Not only have they shown their dedication and worth, they've probably fought Chaos-aligned forces enough to prove a minimal ability to resist temptation. It's only their core troops that undergo mindwipes. Well the entire First Company of every chapter would also fit that bill as well, wouldn't it? And wouldn't the Chapter Masters discuss stuff like this with thier Commanders? At least the Compandy Comanders. (If we start to assume that a bunch of folk know the 'secret', it really doesn't remain a 'secret' any more...) I don't see why having most Chapter Masters know about the Grey Knights is such a bad thing. Internal consistency. Either the GK are the best kept secrets of the Imperium, protected by mindwiping among other techniques, and are not known about. Or they're not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3460012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Have any of you read the Emperor's Gift? I'm fairly certain it mentions that all chapter masters are imbued with the knowledge of Grey Knights, but should not tell the rest of the chapter (Which Logan Grimnar does and it was seen as a bad thing). Lets face it, the 1000+ Space Marine chapters are going to encounter Daemons on a fairly regular basis, and GK's will often need their support to deal with those in the thrall of demonic incursions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3460163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 Heck, the old fluff had the GK overwatching the Exorcists in battle to make sure they weren't tainted after thier deliberate possession. (Which is something the GK would support just as much as going into battle side by side with Daemonhosts. Oh, wait a minute....) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3460185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Well the entire First Company of every chapter would also fit that bill as well, wouldn't it? And wouldn't the Chapter Masters discuss stuff like this with thier Commanders? At least the Compandy Comanders. (If we start to assume that a bunch of folk know the 'secret', it really doesn't remain a 'secret' any more...) I wasn't going to go as far as the veterans. Just amongst those of rank trusted enough to say, lead a taskforce. To me that's still satisfactorilly 'secretive' enough. If it is outright stated that only Chapter Masters know then there's no complaints here either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3460674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 This particular aspect of the fluff has never, ever, been internally consistent. From the publication of Slaves to Darkness, which introduced the Grey Knights, the Ordo Malleus, Daemons and half of the Traitor Legions and I believe the first discussion of mind-wiping, GW writers were never able afterward to write to consistently support that particular bit of fluff. For 25 years now we've been put through the push-and-pull of opposing background material in which Grey Knights and the Daemonic are still supposed to be kept as some big secret opposed with Daemonic Incursions and Black Crusades in which everyone and his brother fights in the battle, and nothing ever comes of it. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3460778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 If Chapter Masters know, then Company captains must also know (as the ones more likely to actually be 'on the ground' when/where they need to call in Grey Knights. If Chapter Masters know, then they have to tell someone (or several someones) about the GK's as they may die unexpectedly and cant exactly leave a little letter of 'secrets for the new guy that I never told anyone' because if it is all secrets then how is the new guy going to know to look for the letter (that would have to be in a secte place not just left on a sideboard for any serf to read)? If the Captains know, then the senior Company Sergeant will know (as the next in line if the Captain is killed), and also the senior headquarters staff (Librarians and Chaplains) for simliar reasons. So if anyone knows then a good 40-50 marines in each chapter must/should know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3461377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sothalor Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 There's also this: the Grey Knights are an *extremely* rare and specialized force, in the background. The background, not the game system. And this is one of those things where fluff doesn't translate well to a game experience. From an "in-universe" perspective, Grey Knights show up for the worst of the worst situations. There aren't enough of them to stomp out every (comparatively) daemonic incursion. It follows then, that any situation where the Grey Knights show up has already gone horrendously, catastrophically wrong. The Imperium, being the grimdark institution that it is, looks at the aftermath of a situation that required GK intervention and more often than not decide the best course of action is to play it safe and exterminate/mind-wipe all the other participants. It's not because they just enjoy the meaningless waste of life (though really, from a meta perspective that's what the whole thing is about to up the grimness). It's because a daemonic incursion goes beyond this planet had 1500 points of Chaos Daemons and that one had 2750 points. The tabletop game only deals with concrete, individual units and models running around on a predefined playing area with static terrain and features. It doesn't convey the fact that reality is breaking. You don't get the parts where the ground itself sprouts mouths and tentacles that hunger to dismember you slowly because it likes the psychic taste of your agony. You don't get the parts where people's sanity shatter and they start pulling out their own stomachs through their throat. You don't get the parts where people spontaneously deform, melt down into gibbering puddles of goo, sprout eye clusters on their buttocks, and can have their entire mental states rewritten so they see it as the ultimate destiny of all reality and hey, why not speed this process along. The Imperium's experience is that the Grey Knights are the ones that consistently face these horrors and have the strength and willpower to triumph and to come out unchanged for it. Everybody else, it is more often than not genuinely safer to either kill them or wipe the experiences from their memories. That said, it's entirely possible that other Imperial forces face down daemonic incursions that are smaller scale/intensity where it's deemed acceptable for them to retain those memories because they're not of the same scale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3462383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 But it's the background that has 'normal' Marines stop the worst Daemonic incursions. Closing portals, sacrificing themselves, reforging Daemon Weapons. Not in game rules. The background isn't internally consistent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3462457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankenstein_PhD Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Let's also not forget the way this clashes with the entire backstory for the Mordian Iron Guard. Their entire claim to fame is holding the line against a demonic incursion on their homeworld, maintaining their discipline and cohesion even in the face of horrors from beyond time and space. The whole "everyone besides marines who encounters the demonic is mindwiped/executed" thing falls apart in that case, I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3463128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redtoof Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I've always assumed the mindwiping/execution thing is on a case by case basis, depending on the importance of the individual, the severity of the taint witnessed and probably the personal views of the Inquisitor leading the operation. I don't think this is backed up by any specific fluff but it does fit with the inconsistant nature of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3463163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 Thing is, if you're not mindwiping everyone, to keep the secret. Then why mindwipe anyone? If they sucumb to taint/madness after witnessing the adversary, then you execute them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3463211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 If they sucumb to taint/madness after witnessing the adversary, then you execute them.So how long do you monitor them incase it manifests in their mind. The quick and simple solution is don't. Killing is the easy option. I've always thought they mind wipe all IG because of the what they don't know cant hurt them attitude. Seeing a daemon would serious break some ones mind and that could allow a daemon to enter and control them. They tell a colleague about what happened and the ripple effect escalates rapidly (no punn intended). If you havn't already, I urge you to read The Emperors Gift. Also, I should add. The Grey Knights are a secret weapon against the daemons. To increase their chances against them you don't want the daemons knowing how to counter the greatest threat to them. . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3463758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 16, 2013 Author Share Posted September 16, 2013 Except the Daemons know all about the GK. Like Sterns ever lasting rivalry, and Draigo tromping around the warp for eternity, interacting with every single Chaos God and daemon there is... I doubt were secret, could you imagine trying to tell fan of big T that he knows nothing of the Grey Knights, or thier plans? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3463827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Let's also not forget the way this clashes with the entire backstory for the Mordian Iron Guard. Their entire claim to fame is holding the line against a demonic incursion on their homeworld, maintaining their discipline and cohesion even in the face of horrors from beyond time and space. The whole "everyone besides marines who encounters the demonic is mindwiped/executed" thing falls apart in that case, I think. As far as I recall, nothing in that background for the Iron Guard siad what happened to those guys who were actually exposed to Chaos Daemons afterwards........ Maybe they were quietly shipped off to a new warzone which just so happened to be a toxic environment and the Munitorum "forgot" to issue them rebreathers - similar way to how the populace of Armageddon was sterilised, herded into work camps and replaced en-masse by imported people so no community knowledge of Chaos remained, even if the individuals themselves hadnt been directly exposed to Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3466599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 My feeling is (not in real terms, just as a rough 'in universe' timeline of events) - Grey Knights are founded during the closing moments of the Horus Heresy (as per our codex) - At that point, Emperor is on the throne, Sigilite is dead, and its really just Guilleman and the other Primarchs barely holding the Imperium together. They've fought both their corrupt brothers and the servants of the warp personally (everyone on Terra heard about or saw Sanguinus breaking a Bloodthirster on his knee in the battle for the palace walls). - Up until First War of Armageddon, the Inquisition had basically kept daemons and the Knights out of common knowledge (Marines are a different matter. My personal feeling is that Marines have their own histories and records of fighting daemons. Hell, the Blood Angels were nearly driven to extinction at Signus Prime by daemons. Not to mention the three Legions at Terra faced down daemons as well as their corrupted brothers. So yeah, Marines would know about daemons, but they would have only a fraction of the lore that Knights possess, because Marines have to fight everything else as well). - Logan Grimnar and the Space Wolves scattered the displaced natives of Armageddon to the far corners of the Imperium. The Inquisiton tried but failed to prevent this (for more on this read 'The Emperor's Gift'). - After this point, widespread knowledge of daemons and the Knights is still brutally suppressed, but its fair to say its more common after Armageddon than before. The Inquisition didn't just say 'oh well guess the Wolves won', they're still out there snuffing out any knowledge of such matters as best they can. For their part, the Wolves got a first-hand explanation of the Knights from Brother Hyperion, so they're fully aware of Chapter 666 now. Plus, it is my belief Fenrisians have always known a little about daemons, so much of their wargear and ritual beliefs are related to hating witches and repelling the taint of Chaos (rune weapons, rune armour, talismans etc). Not to mention, the Space Wolves exterminated the Thousand Sons, and saw first-hand the Flesh Change as well as unnatural abilities unleashed in that battle. tl;dr Whatever the people of the Imperium do know about daemons is very little, and would be distorted by what they are told in church by the Imperial Cult. Its still extremely unlikely they know about the Grey Knights, but daemons would be something they're vaguely aware of. I should add, if you read closely, its not actually the secret of the warp, or daemons, which the Inquisition is trying to suppress after the First War for Armageddon. It's the existence of Angron, and the implications of that (ie there are fallen Primarchs, and fallen Space Marine Legions). It's heavily implied the people of the Imperium don't know about the Horus Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/279974-mindwiping-and-the-secrecy-of-the-daemonic-again/#findComment-3490132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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