C:SM New Tactical Squads

[Kaedes Nex]

For shame! In my opinion anyone running Marine suicide squads needs to sit down in a corner for a good, hard think about their army for a victory without glory or honour is hollow indeed. If your Marines must die they should die standing, taking the enemy with them and not fired off like a grot missile - the Emperor said "and they shall know no fear" not "and they shall be expended for victory"!

 

That's what I keep telling my men, but those darn 1st Co. rascals keep drop podding behind enemy lines despite my orders!

[WarriorFish]

In that case maybe you have issues with authority :P Send your Marines into the maw of death by any means - but only when you expect them to come out the other end covered in glory and the remains of their foes ;)

 

As for losing the Land Raider on the first turn maybe the trick is to have a Techmarine in your army? It must have driven him into a rage as he spent the rest of the game beating seven hells out of my opponent...

[minigun762]

So one of the standard questions for Tac Squads, when do we think it will be worth it to give the Sarge a power weapon?

 

I'd consider spending the points that I'd spend on a heavy weapon on a power weapon, for a drop pod squad, since they'll be up close and personal.

[Excubitor]

Salamanders traits makes it more attractive - you can master-craft the weapon so the problem of missing isn't as large a problem.

[Captain Idaho]

I rarely need the extra assault potential but if you are drop podding down a power maul wouldn't go amiss.

 

I'd go combi weapon first choice though.

[MagicMan]

Ive been thinking about giving my Sarge a power weapon, purely because it looks cool.

 

Last edition i used nothing but Combi-Weapons, though. CC weapons on Tacticals just seemed wasted. 

[Excubitor]

My tactical squads end up in combat more often then not, so for me the advantage of a power weapon is needed fairly often.

 

In my favour though, they actually seem to like it there, they often do far better than they should! (As several Greater Daemons, Soulgrinders, Hive Tyrants, and such can attest!)

[WarriorFish]

I agree with Idaho, I can't remember the last time I gave a Tactical Sergeant a power weapon. More importantly I can't remember a time when I regretted it either. If you felt like it I'd go with a maul for more utility and helping out where they're useful in combat (punching weedy units or kraking tanks in).

[DarkGuard]

Agreed with Idaho and Warriorfish, I'd prefer to get a combi than a melee weapon. I can see these being my 3 main builds of Tactical squad:

 

Frontline - 10 men, combi, special (matching), Rhino

Midfield - 5 men, combi, special (matching), las/plas or assault cannon Razorback

Long-range - 5 men, heavy weapon

 

I have a feeling that these could be the better squads to take. No point taking a heavy on a unit that's moving a lot, not now that you have to pay points for them. Frontline units will do well with the large amount of boltguns available to them etc.

 

However, numbers could change, like taking 8 man units on the frontline squads and 6 for the others, will need to play around a bit with them.

[minigun762]

Agreed with Idaho and Warriorfish, I'd prefer to get a combi than a melee weapon. I can see these being my 3 main builds of Tactical squad:

 

Frontline - 10 men, combi, special (matching), Rhino

Midfield - 5 men, combi, special (matching), las/plas or assault cannon Razorback

Long-range - 5 men, heavy weapon

 

Agreed, I see these as a great place to start.

The one thing I'm looking at is for drop pod front line squads, if that PW would be worth it. I'm back and forth on how often it will make a difference.

[WarriorFish]

That's a great set of builds DarkGuard, now we're no longer getting free heavies there's more to gain by not taking one (or should that be less to lose?). Options and choice is always a good thing :)

[DarkGuard]

I do actually miss the free/cheap heavies. I felt they added so much to a squad, especially one going forward, by giving versatility and options on the cheap. Even if we didn't use it much all you'd miss is one bolt shot at 12" and 24" range. Now, however, they're too expensive to justify on aggressive squads because of the fact that you may not use them.

[MagicMan]

I actually think the Multi-Melta is a pretty sweet option. Its only 10 points.

I like to use my Tacticals in an aggressive midfield capacity. So ill be using a Plasma Gun/Combi-Plamsa/Multi-Melta.

I think for 10 points its the best deal (whats with 15 point missile launchers? ), compliments the 24'' threat radius of the Plasma/Bolters, and gives a little extra punch against tough targets. If you can instant-kill a crisis-suit, or pop a tank it seems worth it for the price.

Still undecided on power weapons...

On one hand, my Tactical spend alot of time fighting in CC, on the other hand thats generally only against tanks/squishy units. They'll get mauled by a CC unit, power-weapon or no.

[jeremy1391]

My front line tac squad roll with a melta, multi melta, combi melta an fist. They go after tanks and I can't tell you how many times I've insta gibbed characters with those power fists :P "oh your captain/IG commander/farseer failed to wound my little ol' sergeant.... Well how about *squish* ah that's better" ;)

[minigun762]

I actually think the Multi-Melta is a pretty sweet option. Its only 10 points.

I like to use my Tacticals in an aggressive midfield capacity. So ill be using a Plasma Gun/Combi-Plamsa/Multi-Melta.

I think for 10 points its the best deal (whats with 15 point missile launchers? ), compliments the 24'' threat radius of the Plasma/Bolters, and gives a little extra punch against tough targets. If you can instant-kill a crisis-suit, or pop a tank it seems worth it for the price..

Very solid build.

I'm cheap with my points so I'd personally use PG/MM or PG/CM but the idea is still the same.

[WarriorFish]

That's true, the MM almost always got onto my Tacs with the last codex, especially the podding ones. So though the number of times I'll take a heavy has been reduced the ratio of MM to other weapon has likely gone up. 15 for a Missile Launcher seems a bit harsh?

[Captain Idaho]

Harsh but still serviceable. Fire support should be smaller squads, hence be cheaper overall. Front line squads will need more numbers and taking weapons becomes more of a decision you have to make based upon what kind of role they are to fulfil.

 

Personally I feel it's wasteful to add points to units for wargear you just don't need for most games. If you need to use that spare heavy weapon in the Tactical squad then you probably could add another unit to the army to complete the job.

 

The concessions I would agree to is when you add a heavy weapon to a full squad that shares a transport, for dropping off etc.

 

Not my cup of tea, but I understand people would enjoy that option.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

My big issue with the five man fire support squad is always how easy it is to kill them. A five man tac squad and heavy weapon on your home objective is great until that outflanking unit shows up, or that drop pod comes down, etc. 

 

I think the 10 man PG/MM is probably the best option we've got as a mid field unit, with a 24 inch threat bubble, plus the Melta can at least snap shot if you have to/want to move.

[Excubitor]

I'll start taking Heavy Bolters more often I feel, one of my first picks will be flamer/heavy bolter/power weapon. I used to use a missile launcher because it was dual role but now I'll just specialise that unit into anti-infantry, and use my missile launchers in Devastator squads.

 

I think my demi-company loadout will now switch to something like;

 

Tac squad - flamer, HB, Vet w/ Power Weapon, Rhino w/ extra storm bolter, dozer blades.

Tac squad - Plasma Gun, Multi-melta, combi-plasma, Rhino w/ extra storm bolter, dozer blades.

Tac Squad - Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Vet w/Power fist, Razorback w/TLAC, dozer blades

 

Devastator Squad - 3 Missile launchers (optional Flak), Lascannon, Razorback w/TLLC

 

Assault squad as any fast option that takes my fancy. Possibly 3xMM AB, 2x LS Typhoon w/HB

[minigun762]

My big issue with the five man fire support squad is always how easy it is to kill them. A five man tac squad and heavy weapon on your home objective is great until that outflanking unit shows up, or that drop pod comes down, etc. .

What about forgoing any squad upgrade and just taking a Razorback?

Hide inside and blast targets at range while enjoying a tiny bit of extra protection.

[VoteForPedro]

I'm looking at 3 Tactical Squads in my 1500 Crimson Fists list, all outfitted as: 5 man with a Heavy Bolter

 

• The Heavy Bolter is good against the same targets as Bolters ensuring that the squad has a defined anti infantry purpose. I don't like having 4 guys sit about uselessly while one fires a Lascannon at a distant tank.
• IF Chapter Tactics improves snap shots slightly making the Heavy Bolter ok at moving with the rest of the squad if necessary. It also helps if you have to go to ground, particularly useful for objective sitters.
• Dev Squads, Centurians and Stormtalons deal with my anti tank needs.
• I'd contemplate a combi but none of them mesh particularly well with the ranged use of these squads.
• No melee weapons on the Sarg, never seen a return on my investment on them.

[Excubitor]

Maybe a combi-flamer, in case they get charged or something gets close? But only if you have the points spare

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I used to never take heavies but then with the free ML, I started to take them.  It's not the best AI or AT weapon, but it can do both jobs sort of.  It can glance a Land Raider.  It can also frag poorly armored infantry or hit a well armored guy with AP3.  It's not my first choice for either role, but as a fallback it has save my guys a few times.  In many way, I think it is the best fit for tactical squads because they also are jacks of all trades.  I also usually squad out unless it is a kill point mission - usually the heavy guy in one squad and the sgt. and special in the other.  Then I park the heavy halves near my objectives.  It's like having a tac squad with 2 heavy weapons that can only have half of it shot at in one attack.  The special/sgt. squad frequently goes in a Razorback and advances.

[Reinholt]

Some thoughts:

 

- I like my tactical squads to be more specialized and less general, and it depends what else I have in my army. In my latest builds, I've had a lot of mobile anti-tank elsewhere in my lists, so the tactical squads are more focused around mulching their troops. Given that I intend to be playing with Salamanders traits, I also don't want to run a bone stock sergeant, as master crafting a bolt pistol or chainsword feels like a waste.

 

- I think melta-bombs are almost always a must for the sergeant, as they are not often useful, but when they are useful, they are exceptionally useful. It's usually 5 points that is worth zero or 100, and if you get to use it once every 5 games or so, it can be a huge turning point when your sergeant runs up and slaps a melta on the side of a key vehicle because your opponent forgot that every damned squad could do that.

 

- I like combi-weapons on non-veteran sergeants. I like power weapons on veterans. The extra attack matters so get your money's worth. I do use power weapons in my squads, but I also play Salamanders, so I may be influenced by the fact that my sergeants essentially get an extra attack from that as well.

 

- Given how challenges work and the lack of a 2+ save or invuln, I sadly don't see a reason to take fists on sergeants anymore.

 

- I'm not a fan of a power maul. I feel melta-bombs are better for vehicles, and anything else I can crush with a maul probably could have been crushed with a chainsword. There are a few corner case examples where that is not true, but I often wish I had just spent the points on something else if I take a maul.

 

- On heavy weapons: I don't like using tactical squads for ranged tank killing, since that wastes a lot of their other firepower. So either I take multi-meltas to make them super lethal if people get close to them, or I take heavy bolters because they are useful even when snap-shooting.

 

- On special weapons: I think there is an argument for all of them, but the trick for me has been specializing my squads between these and the combi-weapons. As Salamanders I have a melta-squad and a flamer-squad, and that's served me well because they all want to be firing at the same thing.

[El_Jairo]

I have read many good things in this thread.

Personally I don't feel like there are some builds which are "must" take. In this codex our options just increased a lot. For me this complicates things a little because the options are now a multitude of what they used to be.

As I see it now you should pick the special weapons which compliment the rest of your army.

5 Man heavy weapon squad can really work and can be supported by a Razorback. I liked TL-HB Razorbacks a lot because they were really cheap. Now I feel they should be surrounded by many vehicles, so they are not a real priority to be taken out. Now I feel that TL-AC or TL-LC have most bang for the buck but TL-HB or TL-HF is a solid cheap choice of anti-infantry goodness.

On Power Weapons: I prefer to take a power sword on a veteran sergeant, if I would pick any. This would be in a midfield 10 men squad. Salamander CT will be the best choice if you like some CC potential.

Personally I like CT:U best because it give more tactical flexibility and will be choosing combi-weapons, even on Veteran Sergeants.

On Veteran Sergeants: I think I will always include them in large squads. In 5 man squads I would like to upgrade them if I can spare some points. A heavy weapon really needs to be able to pass morale an pinning tests. This fact does seem to infer that putting the HW's in Devastator squad is the better option.

One thing I would like to point out is that combat squads must be chosen before deployment, so no longer put 10 tac's in a Rhino and decide on disembarkation.

It looks like I'll have a lot of list building fun before I can find my preferred Troops load-out