C:SM New Tactical Squads

[VoteForPedro]

One thing I would like to point out is that combat squads must be chosen before deployment, so no longer put 10 tac's in a Rhino and decide on disembarkation.

 

This is indeed true (and irratating!) though it is worth mentioning that you can decide to combat squad in deployment and then put both halves of the same squad in one transport.

[minigun762]

Is it worth putting a meltagun/combi-melta tactical squad into a drop pod for the purpose of busting armor?

Two shots gives a moderate chance of destroying armor but it is wasting all of the rest of the squad's firepower.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Can't they throw a krak grenade if the AV is low enough?

[El_Jairo]

Can't they throw a krak grenade if the AV is low enough?

Yes one model can throw a grenade up to 8" but one strength 6 attack isn't that much of a threat to vehicles in shooting, since you attack the side you are facing. Typically enemies won't expose their rear to deep striking drop pods.

 

So yes basically the two other marines are just standing around. This is why Sternguard can be better at this: have one combat squad with 3-4 combi-melta's and the other with 3-4 combi-plasma's to annihilate the contents of the transport you just popped. Of course the Sternguard come at a totally different price.

 

It might just be worth it to sacrifice 5 marines and a drop pod if you can take out that transport of a death star unit. But I would rather have a strategy of supporting units in order to kill off a certain portion of the army completely so they will have a more difficult time in striking back. But as mentioned before in this thread, such a sacrifice might prove very useful to disturb the enemy's plan: ghost arc that won't be able to respawn Necron Warriors into the Orb-Overlord unit, a land raider transporting assault termies or assault centurions, ... you get the point right? Another nice thing is to have the wreck hinder the enemy in its mobility, typical mech IG might get stuck if their front vehicle is unable to move into position. The drop pod is also great at blocking a path and will draw some AT fire power.

 

The minimal cost for this unit is 125 points, which is good if you can trade this for a Land Raider. My personal feeling about this is that the unit is quite situational as not every enemy will provide you with a good target for this unit. And it only doubles as a objective grabber. But coming in turn 1 isn't really helping in this task as it is not a great objective sitter.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

If you get rear armor, you can rapid fire that with bolters.  The krak would work on a lot of side armor and even some things' front armor (like Dreadnoughts).

 

If you have some variety in your pods, and the situation/mission/OpFor does not lend itself to sacrificial 5 man tacs, you might be able to hold them for a later wave to spare them fire and then hope to hold/take/contest an objective with them.  It's probably not an optimal roll for them, but it is something and later in the game they do become something your opponent has to deal with b/c they are scoring.  Where they would kind of suck regardless is when they give up a KP.

 

Dan

[Jonah]

The Melta-Drop team is great. With 2 meltas, a grenade and 2 rapid-firing bolters they roughly have a 60% chance of destroying an AV 10 vehicle. On average they'll at least take 2 hull points off it, and even if they fluff their attack your opponent still has to deal with those 5 marines, he can't let a melta gun run around his backfield with impunity.

 

I look at them primarily as an interference & terror unit as this role is guaranteed. Chipping hull points off something is an added bonus. If you want to make it more certain then take two of these units and put something in a 3rd Pod that can come down turn 2-3. Sternguard would be great for this because you're not suiciding them and they'll probably have something to shoot at after you've had a chance to wreck some transports.

[minigun762]

Sternguard can get more melta shots but part of me feels it's even more wasteful to use them that way because they are more expensive .

 

Still, the idea of taking both sounds good. Gives you the option of firepower density vs scoring unit.

[DarkGuard]

On the other hand, using the Tactical squad in this capacity is more wasteful than Sternguard. Firstly they're a Troops unit, so they score, which Sternguard don't (unless you take Kantor). Secondly, Sternguard are a bigger threat, and therefore demand the opponent to deal with them more forcefully than any Tactical squad would.

[Captain Idaho]

The problem with deepstriking suicide squads is they die even if they fail their mission. Imagine your opponents don't allow you the space to deep strike within close melta range for that Land Raider; you look at deployment and can't change your mind so commit to blowing up a Rhino. Colour me unimpressed!

 

When you look at this, you need to consider your plans and what units you send after such missions.

[minigun762]

What's stopping you from dropping them onto an objective if you don't have a clear shot?

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that's ok, but then I have plans to take objectives anyway so just putting the models on the objective just gives a quick target.

 

I don't really think it's a bad thing to do, but it's probably not worth putting too much dependence on the idea of suicide attacks, especially for Space Marines who don't have the points left to play the attrition game.

[DarkGuard]

If you drop the unit onto the objective early on as well, it gives your opponent plenty of time to neutralise it. I'd prefer to drop a Tactical squad onto an objective mid to late game, so your opponent doesn't have as much time to deal with it.

[minigun762]

What about the Vet Sarge upgrade?

With ATSKNF, how significant is LD?

[UltraTacSgt]

I don't think +1 leadership is worth paying for on its own, or the +1 attack for that matter. I probably won't even equip my Tactical Marines with heavy weapons, as I tend to keep them mobile.

[Captain Idaho]

Anything you want to spend a bunch of points to get power weapons on should have more than 1 attack so I recommend the Veteran Sergeant upgrade in that case. However I rarely think power weapons are good in Tactical squads so I'd save points with the Veteran Sergeants.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

More than 1 attack and preferably more than 1 wound.

[DarkGuard]

Or preferably a cheaper points cost for the upgrade. However, if you have the spare points, there are worst things to buy, you never know when that Ld9 will be useful.

[minigun762]

Anything you want to spend a bunch of points to get power weapons on should have more than 1 attack so I recommend the Veteran Sergeant upgrade in that case. However I rarely think power weapons are good in Tactical squads so I'd save points with the Veteran Sergeants.

 

I agree that a PW and Vet upgrade goes hand in hand, but assuming your running something like Combi-weapon and meltabomb, the Vet upgrade is really only giving you that +1LD. Just doesn't seem as important as it is for something like Chaos.

[War Beast]

I'm considering 10-man squads with Lascannon/Plasma Gun and Meltabombs on the Sergeant. Allows for long range early in the game and some Ap2 punch to add to bolter fire as troops close. For the first time since 4th edition, I may just run them on foot, without transports.

[minigun762]

I'm considering 10-man squads with Lascannon/Plasma Gun and Meltabombs on the Sergeant. Allows for long range early in the game and some Ap2 punch to add to bolter fire as troops close. For the first time since 4th edition, I may just run them on foot, without transports.

 

Melta bomb is cheap but I don't know if it adds much.

 

Are you planning on combat squadding this unit?

[Disruptor_fe404]

If you're taking a power sword on a Veteran Sergeant, I'll point out that a single lightning claw averages more wounds (but has a lower maximum wounds inflicted, if you're rolling hot).

 

Of course, a single lightning claw might not actually be on the Melee Weapons list, which would leave me with a lot of (well, okay, just a little) egg on my face.

 

On a non-Veteran Sergeant, power sword is better though.

[Schultzhoffen]

Plasma Rifle and Missile Launcher in a 10 man squad. Useful vs Hordes, medium armour as well as MEQ/TEQ. Add combi Plas/melta on Sgt if required (ditto melta bombs and vet status). Wrap in rhino for flavour (required for baleflamers or anything that can ignore cover).

 

I'd not bother with CC weapons on the Sgt. Although Marines do have some CC options, a tactical squad is not one of them. A PF/PW is a waste of points in my opinion (I am biased, however, as I try to avoid CC as much as possible and HATE spending points on ANYTHING resembling CC - my bog standard, cheap librarian's force weapon is a good as it gets!).

 

Tactical squad are for holding/securing ground and for gunning down other armies' troops/weak units; anything else is a bonus - as such it's probably best to keep them cheap and save points for your units that can actually do something (read: Sternguard in drop pods with combi wapons, Stormravens, Bikes, etc).

[DarkGuard]

If you're taking a power sword on a Veteran Sergeant, I'll point out that a single lightning claw averages more wounds (but has a lower maximum wounds inflicted, if you're rolling hot).

 

Of course, a single lightning claw might not actually be on the Melee Weapons list, which would leave me with a lot of (well, okay, just a little) egg on my face.

 

On a non-Veteran Sergeant, power sword is better though.

 

You're right there, a Tactical squad Sergeant can now take a lightning claw.

 

Maybe not the best points efficiency, but could we start to see Vet Sergeants with lightning claws and combis running around? Except for White Scars we now need to fight our way out of combat, a lightning claw could help, and wouldn't make him as susceptible to challenges.

[Excubitor]

Now if the Salamanders supplement allows a second flamer into a tactical squad I can run my old 4th ed squad loadout of 2 flamers, vet w/combi-flamer and Lightning Claw...oh happy days!

[Reinholt]

A few more notes:

 

1 - On the topic of tactical squads in drop pods: it depends a lot on your army composition. I really like mine in lower points games, but it's because I run 3 pods (1 dreadnought, 1 tactical with a melta loadout, 1 tactical with a flamer loadout), so depending on what I want to kill, I can decide what comes in. Vehicle or heavily armored? Bring in the meltas. Horde? Bring in the flamers. Dreadnought is always in because there are so few situations where I don't want to force my opponent to deal with that thing immediately, as having one running around in your backfield is horribly disruptive to most gameplans. Especially when it's an Ironclad...

 

Point is, if you are using pods, you want them to have synergy with your force, not be purely one-shot suicide squads (Land Speeders are cheaper for that anyways). Highly aggressive forces that apply pressure early and continue to apply it will make the best use of drop pods.

 

2 - On the topic of power weapons: I find they are great to have for veterans in 10 man squads, and terrible for everything else. A 10 man marine squad is actually a pretty good assault unit in comparison to a lot of other things in the game. No, it will never be a dedicated assault squad, but either piling in alongside one, or bullying other non-assault units are viable tactics. The veteran + pw is the best way to ensure that if your opponent adopted the very common internet thought of no PW marine squads, you can wreck his face in close combat: either you slaughter his sergeant or he avoids the challenge and you mulch his squad. Again, I play Salamanders, so having the MC PW is actually not a bad value for the points. For non-sallies, this is still viable but perhaps less consistent.

 

3 - Melta bombs are amazing. Seriously. It's 5 points that can win you the game. If you were to give nothing else to your sergeant, I cannot recommend this enough. Yes, there are many games where it will do nothing. Yes, sometimes you paid 5 points a few times as a tax that accomplished nothing. However (especially because people tend to forget about them in the midst of games, even good players), they will win you games occasionally. This is back to my view that they are often worth zero, but occasionally worth 100 points or more. You only need that to happen 1 in 20 games for that to be a fairly priced piece of gear. Given how common marines and vehicles are, these are useful to me far more often than that. Yes, if the meta swings to all foot tyranid all the time, my view will change, but we're not there.

 

4 - I will be very happy indeed if the Salamanders supplement allows us to go back to the days of additional flamers / meltaguns / heavy flamers. I would prefer this to heavy weapons.