SvenONE Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 There's a lot of hemming and hawing right now about how the White Scars are now outclassing the Ravenwing. With news of a White Scars supplement on the horizon, one can only assume that they will get better. I just wanted to open the discussion on how White Scars are speeding away from Ravenwing so to speak. Let's start with the chapter tactics and just go from there. Born In the Saddle: It's Skilled Rider with a bonus of a +1 strength to HOW. Fight on the Move: Models have HIt & Run (Minus Termies/Cents). Looking at the chapter tactics, the only difference in bikes is that extra +1S to HOW. All of the ravenwing bikes have H&R, so the bonus for White Scars is the fact that their assault troops can attempt to disengage for some repeated HOW attacks (again, note the +1S is for bikes). White Scars Vs Ravenwing HQs Chapter Master vs. Khan vs Captain vs. Sammael Chapter Master/Captain can become expensive if they take relics. Khan costs 50 points less and comes with an AP3 (ID on 6s) Weapon. He also comes with furious charge. Additionally he gets +1S to HOW. Sammael rocks an AP2 Master crafted sword and has Eternal Warrior and Fearless (via Inner Circle). If you're playing CSM you're also getting preferred enemy. His unit also gets an extra D6 on their turbo boost. He does have a jet bike which is a slightly better turbo-boost (though no one can come with him). He's also got a Plasma Cannon AND a teleport homer (more in this later). Both Khan and Samael have Scout and "Skilled Rider" (Born in the Saddle for Khan), and both have Hit and Run. It's safe to say that Khan and Sammael were roommates at motorcycle camp Sammael turns any size attack squadrons into troops. Khan turns groups of at least 5+ into groups, so the points saved on Khan are going to end up going into more bikers to make them troops. The biggest savings come in the form of taking a captain on a bike who is 90 points cheaper than Sammael and 40 points cheaper than Khan. If you want to get into the nitty gritty. It costs you 25 more points per unit to make White Scars troops. White Scars Bikes Vs Ravenwing Bikes: At first glance these bikes are the same stats wise but the +1S HOW is pretty significant in a H&R army. All of your WS bikes are going to have a 4+ cover if they move. Not to mention you can buy your ablative wounds to protect your special weapons. A WS Bike Squad of 5 Bikers, 2 Grav guns and a sgt with a combi-grav is 145 points. An "equivalent" squad of Ravenwing (replacing grav with plasma) is (edit: 174) points and of course doesn't have Born in the Saddle. Without a doubt, White Scars get an edge when it comes to bike squads. Also note that WS have Scout Bikes which DA doesn't have access to. Looking at this it's hard to not throw your fists in the air cursing the Emperor [or GW} and his [their] mysterious ways. Do Ravenwing retain anything? Well of course they do, but not really in the bike department. For one they can include a single land speeder without taking up any fast attack slots. This may be a moot point however as you are bringing all your fast attack units as troops, so in most cases your fast attack slots might go unused. Built in Teleport Homers. To get the most out of this you are either bringing Land Speeders Support Squadrons, or Deathwing (remember that's TL Turn 1) Black Knights. They sport a better stat line which have Corvus Hammers (+1S Rending), *TWIN LINKED* Rapid-Fire Plasma (18"), then of course they have rad grenades. They can only be fast attack, but rad grenades will benefit everything else you're bringing with you. I think this gives RW armies a slightly better alpha strike factor DA have a better command squad. It's not without its cost, but sticking Sammael in a full command squad with and apothecary and banner (edit: Standard of Devastation) is pretty solid considering all of those bikes (edit: assault bikes) are now twin linked salvo 4/2. 24 twin linked bolter shots at 24" potentially with a rad charge applied, is a pretty big deal. The downside is that Sammael+Full Command Squad+Apothocary is a 500 point unit. The Darkshroud. This in a way makes up for the lack of the skilled rider on all your units, but of course it means that you need to really position all your bikes together. When it turbo boosts it gets a 2+ because of the shrouded. Having to pay 80 points for a bubble unit that can be sniped and penned easily isn't the greatest, but it's something to help those bikes. Teleport Homers+DW. If you happen to have any points leftover, you can of course opt to get a terminator squad in the mix. The combinations with black knights (rad charge of course) are pretty good, but the problem is that in most cases they won't be scoring and you might not even be able to afford them in your budget. Verdict? Well I would say that for people who love the full bike squads, it might be time to convert. You probably noticed a theme in my points above; the problem Ravenwing have isn't that its units are bad, it's just that you have to pay far more to get a somewhat equivalent force which leaves little wiggle room to fill out your list. C:SM (White Scars) get so much flexibility out of their HQ/Bike choices which allow for filling holes in the army, but Ravenwing simply just cost too much to do just about the same. Keep in mind if rumors are true and White Scars are getting a supplement, there could be even more flexibility when it comes to the boys in white. So what do you guys think? Is there anyway that a full Ravenwing list can keep up? Or have we run out of gas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 No mention of the Banner of Devastation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/fred40k2002/120px-DA_BannerDevastation.jpg Your Argument is invalid. No, Seriously, the banner is such a force multiplier that any squads within range are effectively DOUBLED or QUADRUPLED for shooting. and you get three to five Black Knights to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 White Scars Bikes Vs Ravenwing Bikes: At first glance these bikes are the same stats wise but the +1S HOW is pretty significant in a H&R army. All of your WS bikes are going to have a 4+ cover if they move. Not to mention you can buy your ablative wounds to protect your special weapons. A WS Bike Squad of 5 Bikers, 2 Grav guns and a sgt with a combi-grav is 145 points. An "equivalent" squad of Ravenwing (replacing grav with plasma) is 200+ points and of course doesn't have Born in the Saddle. Without a doubt, White Scars significantly better when it comes to bike squads. Also note that WS have Scout Bikes which DA doesn't have access to. Also... That "Equivalent" squad you call out there is 169points... 169-145=24points difference.... hardly earth shattering, that is one biker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Ravenwing Black Knights; one of the most broken units in 40k, currently. Give us a slight edge? I would like to see a White Scars unit that counts as anti-aircraft, anti-monstrous creature, anti-infantry, anti-tank and can still hit the enemy in melee like a squad of Genestealers. On another note, I was under the impression that all chapter tactics could only be activated once per game. Is this not the case? If it is, then all of your problems are solved. If not, then... Black Knights! (I believe it was mentioned at the start of the Ultramarine chapte tactics about the limitation. I assumed this rule applies to all chapter tactics.). White Scars Bikes Vs Ravenwing Bikes: At first glance these bikes are the same stats wise but the +1S HOW is pretty significant in a H&R army. All of your WS bikes are going to have a 4+ cover if they move. Not to mention you can buy your ablative wounds to protect your special weapons. A WS Bike Squad of 5 Bikers, 2 Grav guns and a sgt with a combi-grav is 145 points. An "equivalent" squad of Ravenwing (replacing grav with plasma) is 200+ points and of course doesn't have Born in the Saddle. Without a doubt, White Scars significantly better when it comes to bike squads. Also note that WS have Scout Bikes which DA doesn't have access to. Also... That "Equivalent squad you call out there is 169points... 169-145=14points difference.... hardly earth shattering 169-145=24, just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 I fixed it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscipleOfCaliban Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Standard of Fortitude also deserves a mention. To some extent it limits the low model count issue and is the only save a bike is ever getting against a Heldrake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 I have looked it up briefly, and it is widely regarded that Ulramarines are the only chapter who have 'one use'. Seems odd to me. Maybe it'll come up in FAQ? Who knows. In the meantime, we deal with these 'White Scars' by looking cooler, showing off our Black Knights and, if all that fails, using teleport homers to introducing them to their older brothers: Deathwing. Mwahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 No mention of the Banner of Devastation? I didn't mention it by name but it's in the command squad part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 Also... That "Equivalent" squad you call out there is 169points... 169-145=24points difference.... hardly earth shattering, that is one biker... Sorry my math was off by one bike (I was calculating Sergeant+5 bikers, rather than 5 total including the sergeant). I also got 174. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbenner Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 You forgot to mention that Moondrakken gives D3 HOW hits at +1 strength instead of just 1. Small things, but it's there. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrender_Monkey Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Two more things I would like to add in Dark Angel's favour: 1) Divination Librarians - Not quite as useful as they are in a footslogging army because a lot of stuff is twin linked already, but still useful for stuff like land speeders, attack bikes, special weapons, vehicles and any footslogging soldiers (Deathwing) that we bring along. 2) Power Field Generators - The dreaded baleflamer laughs in the face of our jink saves, so being able to give a proper invulnerable save to our most important units (like the BoD) is extremely useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catastrophe Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 It seems to me that Sammael is well worth the 50 points more with jetbike rules, a BS5 Plasma Cannon and eternal warrior. Str10 weapons aren't common but there's are a few out there. Fail a Halo save and Kahn is gone while Sammael's still kicking. For someone who rolls 1s way more than the average that's a major plus. I'd also take ap2 over ap3 and d3 ap- hits. From what I can tell, RW bikes are 6 points more each for stubborn and teleport homers IF you take Kahn on a bike. If you take just a captain with white scars you'd lose out on scout. Sure, on a bike for bike basis with nothing else taken into account, SM bikes are better for the points, but that also means you're ignoring all of their built in rules. DW and Greenwing armies can take RW bikes with all the bells and whistles all the time, SM armies that aren't using Scars traits and/or Kahn won't have anything like the RW. In other words, our RW are RW all the time, to get SM bikes even close you have to take a specific HQ and chapter tactics. We don't have to. That's a pretty big difference in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 I agree... trying to make a camparison between RW and WS is just silly... The force of DA is that you can take an army that has 3 chapter tactics in one single army (GW... RW... DW) and can still ally with another SM codex army to get more units with a different chapter tactic (for example ally with CF with scoring sternguard or IH with IWND veichles)... Using just only one of the DA three wings is plain silly and sucidal... WS may have better bikes... IF may have better tacticals... IH may have better terminators... But we can mix all together... when you make a WS army you cannot have bonuses on terminators or tacticals and so on... Yes all SM armies have armywide tactics but each one is exploitable at its best only by certain units... in DA army you have the right bonus for the right unit so if you can work your units in sinergy you can kick a codex SM army in the ass... C:SM has the dreaded grav weapons and CSM has baleflaming drakes??? we have PFG to protect our main units and then divination on cheap 65 pints librarians and dakka banners to maximize the damage... I still think that C:DA is better than C:SM by many ways... Rem,eber C:SM can take only one bonus (they have several to choose from but only one at time) while we can have three together (and units like RW with homers and DW with DWA work the best in sinergy)... Our army is full of force multipliers... we must use them at their best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Black is easier to paint than white... I have driven myself insane with the fairings and tail feathers of my Knights for the past 6 weeks... The black will only take an hour or two... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 The banner of devastation is good and all, great even, but Protecting it is a problem. Had a few games where the banner's positioning was a lot more trouble than it was worth while on the Command squad, and they just seemed to die to the slightest touch. Yea, it quadruples the bolter fire, but only until a smart opponent kills it with everything. You can try putting it in an LRC, but that starts eating up so many points. Also, it kinda forces you to bunch around a big metal box and keeps you from really speeding up. Maybe I was playing them wrong, but I think the banner isn't that good imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Ravenwing are better, but all Bike armies are kind of weak these days with the HellDrake, having Terminator support is invaluable. Plus, we have the DS and BK. We win overall against White Scars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 I'm finding it is better to mix the two I love the allies rule! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 It's not at all silly to compare the two. Comparing the two is not Apples to Oranges, it's more like Braeburns to Granny Smiths. One is better on its own, the other is better in pies. Nice analysis, SvenONE, other than the pretty egregious failure to mention the Crutch of Devastation Banner of Devastation :) The makeup of the Ravenwing Attack Squadron since 4E has always annoyed me, as has the removal of skilled rider for rank n file Ravenwing. The White Scars unit is definitely better than RAS in those two regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 I agree... trying to make a camparison between RW and WS is just silly... The force of DA is that you can take an army that has 3 chapter tactics in one single army (GW... RW... DW) and can still ally with another SM codex army to get more units with a different chapter tactic (for example ally with CF with scoring sternguard or IH with IWND veichles)... Using just only one of the DA three wings is plain silly and sucidal... WS may have better bikes... IF may have better tacticals... IH may have better terminators... But we can mix all together... when you make a WS army you cannot have bonuses on terminators or tacticals and so on... Yes all SM armies have armywide tactics but each one is exploitable at its best only by certain units... in DA army you have the right bonus for the right unit so if you can work your units in sinergy you can kick a codex SM army in the ass... C:SM has the dreaded grav weapons and CSM has baleflaming drakes??? we have PFG to protect our main units and then divination on cheap 65 pints librarians and dakka banners to maximize the damage... I still think that C:DA is better than C:SM by many ways... Rem,eber C:SM can take only one bonus (they have several to choose from but only one at time) while we can have three together (and units like RW with homers and DW with DWA work the best in sinergy)... Our army is full of force multipliers... we must use them at their best... Only using one of the wings being suicidal; I disagree with this. Each wing has the potential of synergising with another or working by themselves. The Dark Shroud, for example, is at its fullest potential when part of a full Ravenwing army. Terminators have always been able to work by themselves, as we know from previous codexes. I know they're more expensive now, but they still work. Try convincing Chaos players that they don't. And Greenwing? Well, the Dakka Pole is still laughing at every other bolter wielding chapter. It may have better Tacticals? Situational, I guess. We can do things with ours, they can do things with theirs. It may have better Terminators? Cell 142... Now! They have Grav Weapons. I know, sad times, right? The Chapter with the most Arcane weaponry and we do not get Grav Weapons. I suppose we couldn't have everything. Where am I going with this... Tl;dr We do not have to think or try as hard as you think to beat a player of the same skill wielding a White Scars list. Just bring any old army you like, whether Greenwing, Ravenwing, Deathwing or a mixture of 2 or 3, and I recon you have roughly 1/2 chance of beating your White Scars alter ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 The problem is actually over the simple RW bike army vs WS bike army it's a whole. - you didn't mention the attack bikes. For some it's a bonus since you can send a MM in the back of your opponent and claim an objective while for other it's a drawback since it gives easy 1st blood and KP. - WS bikes can be supported by storm talons and thunderfire cannons... Compared to Nephilims and LS vengeance <_< - OTHER units gets the hit & run in WS. GW forgot to include it in its bike description for codex DA... It means that our chappies must at least join an AB to hit&run while WS chappies can do it alone... And once you've faced a bike chappy that can hit&run you know it's a bad thing. - our mass of redemption makes however our chappies really bad... The SM relic are kinda meh. Hence you see that there are so many points that it makes everything very hard to compare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 White scars? Not worth it. All the points you spend to take a Chapter master on bike / Khan and some White scars should be used to get more RW bikers. Several reasons for this: - salvo 4 (SoD) twin linkes bikes kill / survive a lot more then HoW S5 attacks - scout move - Attack bikes that are scoring - outflank Once you go black... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 There is a note i would like to make, though. comparing 6 man squads, the white scars are 35 points less than Ravenwing. although that doesn't seem like a lot, the savings can pile up quickly with multiple squads. Add that at the price to make them scout and outflank (KHANNNNN!!!) and unlocks them as troops is 50 points cheaper than Sam-i-am, (while also giving this to transports) and you have quite a difference in points Now, I agree that the compareison is silly and i'm not trying to preach this out to everyone and try and convert them, just wanted to discuss this. in other words..... Please dont kick me out of the Unforgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madman2980 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Do not worry brother! You still remain mainly because you know too much about the Fallen Angels UNHOLY FORCES OF CHAOS THAT ARE TOTALLY NOT RELATED TO US for us to kick you out. We will beat these untanned skin blemishes with talons of plasma! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Out of competitive play is there any real reason why we should compare the armies at all? Why can't we accept there's another bike army out there that can do things different and rely on a different playstyle. Sure it can have it's pros... perhaps more than ours... but our RW was never as good as this and it's not a new SM that will take it's shine. It's still a fore to be reconned with with a playstyle different than WS. The sky is not falling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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